The Spoiled Poor

Jason76

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
465
Age
47
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Unitarian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
A common argument among conservatives in the US is that the poor are spoiled, that they are deterred from manning up, getting a job - simply cause they get free money. Well, anyway, what are some counter-arguments? Well, one involves the fact that poor also exist in the third world, they get NO welfare - and yet they're still poor!

O.K., how can this dilemma be solved? Well, the poor cannot utilize government money - and are poor, as would also be without welfare, because they aren't well integrated in society. In fact, the US has simply huddled them into reservations of a sort.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I had an uncle who used the system until the day he died. He refused to work and had "health issues" whenever they tried to force him to look for employment. My dad said he was a hypochondriac.

I know not everyone who is poor takes advantage of the welfare system but there are some who are life timers and teach their kids to do the same.
 

Jason76

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
465
Age
47
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Unitarian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I had an uncle who used the system until the day he died. He refused to work and had "health issues" whenever they tried to force him to look for employment. My dad said he was a hypochondriac.

I know not everyone who is poor takes advantage of the welfare system but there are some who are life timers and teach their kids to do the same.

It would be interesting to see what percentage use the system - and also - as I was saying - lack of welfare in Haiti or Colombia hasn't made the poor there richer.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A common argument among conservatives in the US is that the poor are spoiled, that they are deterred from manning up, getting a job - simply cause they get free money. Well, anyway, what are some counter-arguments? Well, one involves the fact that poor also exist in the third world, they get NO welfare - and yet they're still poor!

O.K., how can this dilemma be solved? Well, the poor cannot utilize government money - and are poor, as would also be without welfare, because they aren't well integrated in society. In fact, the US has simply huddled them into reservations of a sort.


The trouble is that there are people who are genuinely unable to work. We can discuss endlessly the best way to provide for such people but the underlying reality is that they are incapable of providing for themselves.

There are other people who are temporarily unable to provide for themselves. Not in the sense they aren't capable of working, simply that they are temporarily unable to find work to do. Given that they pay into the system while they are working it doesn't seem hugely unreasonable that the system should offer them some support to help them through a rough patch.

And then there are the people who are perfectly capable of working but prefer not to. There's no reason at all why they should be given anything for free because the simple reality is that they are lazy. If the system gives them money why would they ever bother to work for themselves? They'll often have a go-to excuse for why they can't work this job or that job but the simple truth is that they just don't want to work.

One thing I've noticed is that the people with the greatest needs tend to be the least vocal about them. The ones who cause a lot of drama are often the ones with the least serious problems. The ones who have a work ethic wil try to continue to work despite their health problems, and hence the system tends to spit them out and deny them the help they need. The lazy will create one health problem after another after another, game the system to maximise their payments, and gladly accept everything handed to them on a silver plate.

In the UK some years ago I remember seeing a leaflet titled "How to be better off in work". The fact such a leaflet even exists shows the rather sorry state where people have to be told that they might be better off working than not working. Sadly it didn't get any better from there, as it showed a couple of hypothetical unemployed people and how taking a job would change the payments they got but the conclusion was that they would be better off with a job. The numbers were stagging - one hypothetical example would be better off by less than $5 per week. It's hardly difficult to imagine why someone wouldn't want to work a 40-hour week to gain $5. Is anyone willing to work for 13 cents an hour?

The trouble when welfare is administered by government is that it simply applies a rigid set of rules, such that people who are so inclined can game the system and continue to be lazy.

I think the old saying "if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you teach a man to fish you feed him for life" applies very much here. If someone is truly unable to fish they need to be fed. Someone might need to be given a few fish while they learn to catch their own, but if you keep giving a man free fish what incentive is there for him to catch his own?
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It would be interesting to see what percentage use the system - and also - as I was saying - lack of welfare in Haiti or Colombia hasn't made the poor there richer.

The fact that a lack of welfare means poor people stay poor doesn't inherently mean that the welfare system is a good thing. I remember a wise man once said we'd always have poor people with us.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,282
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I also remember that He also admonished the church to take care of them
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
780
Age
81
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
Why myths about poor endure

by Judith McCormack in the Toronto Star

Our perceptions of poor people are full of stubborn myths. The man who picks up his welfare cheque in a white Cadillac, the teenage mother with a flock of illegitimate children, the loafer who works the system instead of a job – these are the stuff of urban legends. The reality of poverty is surprisingly different. To begin with, the proportion of single parents on welfare who are under 20 years old is very small – 3 per cent, according to a National Council on Welfare study. And nearly half of all single parent families on welfare have only one child, with another 31 per cent having only two children. That couch potato with a weak work ethic? Another myth. The grim truth is that more than half of all poor people are working. And even bleaker – almost one-third of people on welfare are children. When the proportion of poor people with disabilities is added to this mix, the picture looks quite different. There is a notable absence of white Cadillacs among the poor as well. Welfare incomes typically hover at around half the poverty line, not nearly enough money for adequate food or housing, let alone a car. Perhaps the most persistent of these fallacies is the idea of widespread welfare fraud. In fact, the evidence suggests that the rate of welfare fraud is quite low.

As professors Janet Mosher and Joe Hermer found in a report to the Law Commission of Canada, the number of welfare fraud convictions in Ontario in 2001-02 was roughly equivalent to 0.1 per cent of the combined social assistance caseload. Even more telling is that these convictions represented only 1 per cent of the allegations about welfare offences. And there were a large number of allegations – 38,452 welfare fraud investigations were conducted that year. The end tally? Ninety-nine per cent of them did not result in convictions. In other words, a great deal of time and energy is spent looking for welfare fraud, but there doesn't seem to be much to find.

So why are these myths so resilient, despite the evidence to the contrary? One reason has to do with underlying economic fears in society at large. For many people, concerns about financial insecurity and ending up poor are never far from the surface. These fears can be handled by assigning certain traits to the poor that make them different from the rest of society. If we think of the poor as lazy and dishonest, then it seems less likely that poverty will happen to us, the hard-working, the responsible. But these stereotypes are not merely the result of personal fears. They serve a number of other purposes as well. Blaming the poor for their own plight makes it possible to avoid a more searching examination of the social and economic factors that contribute to poverty.

For example, unemployment is an important determinant of poverty. But the unemployment rate is closely linked to broader economic policy decisions. Increasing interest rates, for instance, usually results in fewer jobs and higher unemployment. This means that finding a job is like a game of musical chairs for the poor. No matter how motivated an individual person may be, there will always be too few chairs to go around. Similarly, a low minimum wage, or a lack of affordable housing are public policy choices that have a direct effect on poverty. Stigmatizing the poor allows politicians and policy-makers to ignore responsibility for those decisions.

The myths about poverty often serve other political purposes as well. Defining the poor as lazy or irresponsible creates popular villains for the rest of us to condemn. It panders to a human weakness to feel superior to someone, and provides a handy target for complaints about tax dollars. The same is true when those stereotypes are dressed up in the jargon of "welfare dependency," argued as the reason why poor children sometimes end up as poor adults. The real problem is that poor children have severely limited resources, which often translates into less education and fewer opportunities as they get older. They may indeed end up losing that game of musical chairs, but not because of a particular mindset.

The truth is that, like the rest of us, poor people engage in a wide range of moral conduct and possess a broad array of personal traits and psychological outlooks. And the way to address a complex problem like economic inequality is from a variety of different angles. Rather than scapegoating the poor, there are a series of practical steps that would have a significant impact on poverty. Several of these steps have been canvassed in these pages – a higher minimum wage, affordable housing, universal child care, a guaranteed income, and accessible education. These measures go to some of the most fundamental principles of civil society: ensuring human dignity and a fair shake for everyone, regardless of income.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Why myths about poor endure

by Judith McCormack in the Toronto Star

Our perceptions of poor people are full of stubborn myths.

Article shortened for brevity...

Do you think an article from 2007 is still applicable?
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
780
Age
81
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
Article shortened for brevity...

Do you think an article from 2007 is still applicable?

Perhaps not in a few of the fine details but in the broad sweep --- yes.

BTW the most recent book in scripture was written 1890 years ago.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Perhaps not in a few of the fine details but in the broad sweep --- yes.

BTW the most recent book in scripture was written 1890 years ago.

I hardly think that Judith McCormack is on par with God's Word.
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
780
Age
81
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I hardly think that Judith McCormack is on par with God's Word.

What does this have to do with my post and who is Judith McCormack?

Edit: OK, just got it. Sorry.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I also remember that He also admonished the church to take care of them

He did indeed, and there's a huge difference between the church caring for people and people associated with the church voting for governments that force someone else to do the job for them. There's also a big difference between caring for the poor who are poor through no fault of their own, and making the lazy sufficiently comfortable that they stay permanently lazy.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Why myths about poor endure

by Judith McCormack in the Toronto Star

Our perceptions of poor people are full of stubborn myths. The man who picks up his welfare cheque in a white Cadillac, the teenage mother with a flock of illegitimate children, the loafer who works the system instead of a job – these are the stuff of urban legends. The reality of poverty is surprisingly different. To begin with, the proportion of single parents on welfare who are under 20 years old is very small – 3 per cent, according to a National Council on Welfare study. And nearly half of all single parent families on welfare have only one child, with another 31 per cent having only two children. That couch potato with a weak work ethic? Another myth. The grim truth is that more than half of all poor people are working. And even bleaker – almost one-third of people on welfare are children. When the proportion of poor people with disabilities is added to this mix, the picture looks quite different. There is a notable absence of white Cadillacs among the poor as well. Welfare incomes typically hover at around half the poverty line, not nearly enough money for adequate food or housing, let alone a car. Perhaps the most persistent of these fallacies is the idea of widespread welfare fraud. In fact, the evidence suggests that the rate of welfare fraud is quite low.

(cur for brevity)

Of course part of the problem is that it's often very hard to distinguish the deserving poor from the undeserving poor, and I suspect many people personally know of a situation where someone is gaming the system which usually does little to help confidence in the system. Many people will also personally know of someone who appears deserving of more help than the system says they can be given, which further undermines trust in it.

From my experience with the system in the UK, having graduated university in the middle of a recession and taken 18 months to find a job, the system was almost designed to be gamed. At the time I lived far enough from the unemployment office that I could "sign on" by mail. I literally signed a chit that said I was unemployed, mailed it in, and my check arrived in the mail a few days later. Easy as that. And when they called me in for one of their interviews to "make sure they were doing all they could to help" they typically gave three weeks notice - more than long enough to arrange a day off if I had been working on the quiet. Had an employer not been amenable to helping game the system it's enough notice to prepare a fake cold the day before. I often wondered why someone who is unemployed couldn't be contacted by telephone and called to an interview the next day. If you can't make it you'd better have a pretty good reason, since you're supposed to be unemployed.

Then of course government has a vested interest in keeping unemployment figures low because it makes them look good. In the US I believe you have the concept of "disengaged" where someone has given up on even looking for work and therefore doesn't count as "unemployed" any more. In the UK for a time it appeared there was something of a push to get people off the unemployment list, and moving them onto disability was a way to do it. It was a win-win for the government and the claimant - the government's unemployment figures dropped and the claimant got more free money. Never mind the taxpayers who picked up the tab for this act of indulgence.

From what I can see of the way the US system works it seems parts of the system are ripe for gaming by anyone who runs their own company who isn't morally opposed to exploiting the system. Sometimes, just out of a sense of irony, I wonder how easy it would be to have a SNAP card next to an Amex Platinum card, in the same wallet with the same names on them.

To look at a couple of sections in the article:

The myths about poverty often serve other political purposes as well. Defining the poor as lazy or irresponsible creates popular villains for the rest of us to condemn. It panders to a human weakness to feel superior to someone, and provides a handy target for complaints about tax dollars. The same is true when those stereotypes are dressed up in the jargon of "welfare dependency," argued as the reason why poor children sometimes end up as poor adults. The real problem is that poor children have severely limited resources, which often translates into less education and fewer opportunities as they get older. They may indeed end up losing that game of musical chairs, but not because of a particular mindset.

There is a lot of truth in that it's easier to dismiss a poor person as lazy rather than figuring out whether a hand up would help them. Where possible it makes sense to offer a hand up rather than a hand out, simply to assist someone to provide for themselves and achieve a sense of dignity rather than endlessly giving them just enough that they have "something to lose" without ever having enough to break free from poverty. The issue of education is another valid point, although perhaps part of the solution here would be to encourage employers to really ask whether the position they are looking to fill really requires a degree. When we reach a stage where you practically need a degree to mop the floor at McDonalds about the only achievement is that the poorest become excluded from employment, which offers little benefit to anyone except the politicians who can paint the other side as the boogeyman who will take away what little they have, all the while offering them just enough crumbs that they don't revolt.

The truth is that, like the rest of us, poor people engage in a wide range of moral conduct and possess a broad array of personal traits and psychological outlooks. And the way to address a complex problem like economic inequality is from a variety of different angles. Rather than scapegoating the poor, there are a series of practical steps that would have a significant impact on poverty. Several of these steps have been canvassed in these pages – a higher minimum wage, affordable housing, universal child care, a guaranteed income, and accessible education. These measures go to some of the most fundamental principles of civil society: ensuring human dignity and a fair shake for everyone, regardless of income.

"Poor people" as a group are as varied as any other group, as the article says. There's lots of talk about "addressing economic inequality" but there comes a point at which we need to ask whether it should be addressed at all. To give you an example, a guy I know is in his 40s, divorced with two kids. One of his standard go-to lines is "I can't afford it" and yet there's always beer in his fridge and there's always whiskey in his drinks cabinet. He drinks both in copious quantities, it's not as if he buys a cheap bottle of bourbon and nurses it for a year. He shows precisely zero inclination to improve his situation - he'll complain he doesn't know how to do something but won't take the time to read about it, or find YouTube videos about it because he'd rather spend time watching videos of cats falling off shelves or something. Why should there be anything other than economic inequality between a guy like this, and the guy who gets up early, works hard, and spends his free time learning new skills?

It's all very well to talk of higher minimum wages, universal child care, guaranteed incomes etc but the question always comes back to who is going to pay for it all. Usually the mantra is little more than "tax the rich" but without defining "the rich" or quantifying how much more they would be taxed, and indeed evaluating how much of the theoretical gain would actually be realised and how much economic activity would simply stop or move offshore, it's little more than rabble rousing.

But hey, if someone wants to pay me enough so that I don't need to work and can spend my entire life doing the things I want to, that would be grand. I just don't see a very big line forming of people wanting to do that.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The trouble is that there are people who are genuinely unable to work. We can discuss endlessly the best way to provide for such people but the underlying reality is that they are incapable of providing for themselves.

There are other people who are temporarily unable to provide for themselves. Not in the sense they aren't capable of working, simply that they are temporarily unable to find work to do. Given that they pay into the system while they are working it doesn't seem hugely unreasonable that the system should offer them some support to help them through a rough patch.[/quote

The fact is that there are people who are willing to work and are able to work but prefer to life off of the government...and there are people who only need a helping hand, often temporarily, in order to survive until they can find work or somewhere to live etc.

We all know this to be the case; and we should also be able to recognize the topic as little more than an excuse for more virtue shaming. Ugh.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The trouble is that there are people who are genuinely unable to work. We can discuss endlessly the best way to provide for such people but the underlying reality is that they are incapable of providing for themselves.

There are other people who are temporarily unable to provide for themselves. Not in the sense they aren't capable of working, simply that they are temporarily unable to find work to do. Given that they pay into the system while they are working it doesn't seem hugely unreasonable that the system should offer them some support to help them through a rough patch.

The fact is that there are people who are willing to work and are able to work but prefer to live off of the government...and there are people who only need a helping hand, often temporarily, in order to survive until they can find work or somewhere to live etc.

We all know this to be the case; there is no mystery about it. We also dont need one more thread that is an excuse for pontificating that liberals are nice but conservatives are heartless.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The fact is that there are people who are willing to work and are able to work but prefer to live off of the government...and there are people who only need a helping hand, often temporarily, in order to survive until they can find work or somewhere to live etc.

We all know this to be the case; there is no mystery about it. We also dont need one more thread that is an excuse for pontificating that liberals are nice but conservatives are heartless.

It certainly has the potential to turn into the kind of thread that argues "you disagree with me about how to solve the problem, therefore you must not care about solving the problem at all". Time will tell.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It certainly has the potential to turn into the kind of thread that argues "you disagree with me about how to solve the problem, therefore you must not care about solving the problem at all". Time will tell.

That's not unlike what I was thinking also. This is not a thread that asks for a serious discussion of a serious topic.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps not in a few of the fine details but in the broad sweep --- yes.

BTW the most recent book in scripture was written 1890 years ago.


Gaming the system is a time honored tradition...

The best of its practitioners are the State Administrators themselves...

It is how privilege is kept to the select few...

I was looking to register a home-made boat trailer, and my administrative friend offered me his generic registration to use from his trailer which had been burned in a fire... Thought nothing of it... He wanted to be a highway patrolman... Good friends with a lot of them locally... His wife never gets a ticket and speeds all the time and gets stopped... She knows the right people through him...

Sometimes I think Islamic punishments, like public canings, might be a great help for public virtue if universally applied...

I say!! :)


Arsenios
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Liberals:

Give 'em a hand out, JUST enough to satisfy them....and keep them loyal to the liberals.
Success is measured by how many are getting checks - and for how long.
Make them dependent to government and to liberals.
Give a man one fish. Every day.

Conservatives:

Give 'em a hand up
Success is measured by how few need assistance and by how quickly they moved off it.
Permits them to depend on self and be dependent neither on government or any other "cow"
Teach a man to fish.


Simply very different philosophies.


Obama saw the highest unemployment rate among Blacks since the Depression. Trump sees the lowest umemployment rate among Blacks since records starting being kept. Liberals rejoice in what happened under Obama, Conservatives in what's happening under Trump.


Simply different perspectives.




.

.
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,695
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I've often thought the ultimate aim of any charity should be to disband. What could be a better testament to their work than to be able to declare that they are no longer required?
 
Top Bottom