The Soul Survives Death

[atpollard]

- Claims have been made that a significant amount of Holy Scripture supports the idea of a conscious “soul” that survives human death;
- Claims have been made that specific identifiable verses in nominated Bible books, support the idea of a conscious “soul” that survives human death;
- Those claims have been shown to be false – all of them – false, because the supporting Scriptures claimed to exists, simply do not;

I chose to respond in a new topic rather than offer yet another excuse for some posters to avoid responding to the original question in the previous topic.

First, let's define the word "SOUL" that I intend to demonstrate Scriptural support for surviving death.

PSYCHE [G5590] ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.​

Furthermore, I will distinguish it by the narrower usage applied to the immortal human soul defined in Thayer's Greek Lexicon as follows:

b. the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life: 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17; ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς, James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20; σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).
c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from τό σῶμα, as the other part of human nature (so in Greek writings from Isocrates and Xenophon down; cf. examples in Passow, under the word, p. 2589{a} bottom; Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)): Matthew 10:28, cf. 4 Macc. 13:14 (it is called ἀθάνατος, Herodotus 2, 123; Plato Phaedr., p. 245 c., 246 a., others; ἄφθαρτος, Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 14; διαλυθῆναι τήν ψυχήν ἀπό τοῦ σώματος, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 14); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul, Acts 2:27, 31 Rec.; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4 (Wis. 3:1; (on the Homeric use of the word, see Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word, 3, and references at the end, also Proudfit in Bib. Sacr. for 1858, pp. 753-805)). ​

[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;[G5590] but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul[G5590] and body in hell.

[1Th 5:23 NASB] 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul[G5590] and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Heb 10:39 NASB] 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.[G5590]

[Jas 1:21 NASB] 21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and [all] that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.[G5590]
[Jas 5:20 NASB] 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[G5590] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

[1Pe 1:3-9 NASB] 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to [obtain] an inheritance [which is] imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, [being] more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.[G5590]

[Rev 6:9 NASB] 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls[G5590] of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
[Rev 20:4 NASB] 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I [saw] the souls[G5590] of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[atpollard]

LIFE, DEATH and LIFE ...
[1Co 11:27-32 NASB] 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

[1Co 15:42-57 NASB] 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable [body,] it is raised an imperishable [body;] 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual [body.] 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


ETERNITY ...
[Luk 16:19-31 NASB] 19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

[Mat 25:31-34, 41, 46 NASB] 31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ... 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[atpollard]

As a side note, most of the claims referenced by the above quote were actually claims against ANNIHILATIONISM. There are more verses for eternal punishment than those that describe or imply the existence of a soul between death and resurrection ...

[Mat 18:8]
[Mat 8:12]
[Mat 13:42]
[Mat 13:50]
[Mat 22:13]
[Mat 24:51]
[Mat 25:30]
[Mat 25:41]
[Mat 25:46]
[Mar 9:43]
[Luk 13:28]
[Jude 1:7]
[Rev 19:3]

 

[Andrew]

I appreciate this very much.
What's the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire? Are they the same? The Lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, and hell will be thrown into the lake as the new Earth and new Heaven are created, is this likewise implying that Hell will be united with the Lake of Fire just as Earth and Heaven will be united? I never really thought of it like that, makes perfect sense.

 

[Arsenios]

I appreciate this very much.
What's the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire? Are they the same? The Lake of fire is for the devil and his angels, and hell will be thrown into the lake as the new Earth and new Heaven are created, is this likewise implying that Hell will be united with the Lake of Fire just as Earth and Heaven will be united? I never really thought of it like that, makes perfect sense.

The difference between heaven and hell is the condition of the person finding his soul in Christ in the Age to Come...
Christ is Heaven to those who love Him...
He is hell to those who hate Him...
The Lake of Fire is Christ to those who hate Him...

God will determine, at the dread Last Judgement, to which group each of us will be eternally consigned...


Arsenios

 

[Pedrito]

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Definitions are interesting things. They are powerful things. They can encapsulate truth, or they can promote gross untruth.

Mental conditioning is also a powerful tool. Within the realm of Middle Eastern Islam, children are conditioned from birth to hate Jews and to believe that they should be driven from Israel/Palestine. The statement of a Muslim scholar in recent times that Jews have the right to be there because that land was given to all the descendants of Abraham, makes no difference. The fundamental belief that they have been taught from childhood is the truth. Full stop.

Within the realm of Christianity, children are conditioned from birth to believe that the word “soul” refers to an independent, disembodied life form that survives human death (among other things taught). And likewise for them, no matter what the Bible actually reveals, that fundamental belief that they have been taught from childhood, is the truth. Full stop.

The Scripture references presented by the Poster in Post #1, rely on that preconditioning to prove the point he is trying to make. He is effectively “preaching to the converted”. And we will see that Posts #2 and #3 rely on preconditioning as well.

It will be interesting (hopefully interesting, as opposed to being considered outlandish) to see from the Scriptures themselves what Jesus and the apostles actually meant when they used the word “soul”, as well as what the words , expressions and situations in Posts #2 and #3 actually portray.

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Consider also:

A clue to the existence and importance of that preconditioning with respect to the word “soul”, and of the (secretly acknowledged) shaky ground on which it is based, was actually presented in Post #1. That clue is the fact that Thayer in his Greek Lexicon (a supposed translation dictionary) as laid out for us, felt the need to include theological statements. The statements were placed there to channel people’s thoughts in a particular direction – a direction which kept people’s attention from straying from their preconditioned belief.

That inclusion of theological statements should make any logically minded person sit up and wonder: Why did Thayer deem it so necessary to include them?

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Space considerations mean that seeing from the Scriptures themselves what Jesus and the apostles actually meant when they used the word “soul”, etc., will need to wait for a later Post or two.

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[atpollard]

Why did Thayer deem it so necessary to include them?

To distinguish those uses of the Greek word from radially different uses, like ...

STRONGS NT 5590: ψυχή
ψυχή, ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latin anima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Revelation 8:9 (Genesis 9:4; Genesis 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1 Kings 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12.
b. life: μέριμναν τῇ ψυχή, Matthew 6:25; Luke 12:22; τήν ψυχήν ἀγαπᾶν, Revelation 12:11; (μισεῖν, Luke 14:26); τιθέναι, John 10:11, 15, 17; John 13:37; John 15:13; 1 John 3:16; παραδιδόναι, Acts 15:26; διδόναι (λύτρον, which see), Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; ζητεῖν τήν ψυχήν τίνος (see ζητέω, 1 a.), Matthew 2:20; Romans 11:3; add, Matthew 6:25; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; Luke 12:20, 23; Acts 20:24; Acts 27:10, 22; Romans 16:4; 2 Corinthians 1:23; Philippians 2:30; 1 Thessalonians 2:8; in the pointed aphorisms of Christ, intended to fix themselves in the minds of his hearers, the phrases εὑρίσκειν, σῴζειν, ἀπολλύναι τήν ψυχήν αὐτοῦ, etc., designate as ψυχή in one of the antithetic members the life which is lived on earth, in the other, the (blessed) life in the eternal kingdom of God: Matthew 10:39; Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35-37; Luke 9:24, 56 Rec.; Luke 17:33; John 12:25; the life destined to enjoy the Messianic salvation is meant also in the following phrases ((where R. V. soul)): περιποίησις ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; κτᾶσθαι τάς ψυχάς, Luke 21:19; ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν (here A. V. (not R. V.) for you; cf. c. below), 2 Corinthians 12:15.
c. that in which there is life; a living being: ψυχή ζῶσα, a living soul, 1 Corinthians 15:45; (Revelation 16:3 R Tr marginal reading) (Genesis 2:7; plural Genesis 1:20); πᾶσα ψυχή ζωῆς, Revelation 16:3 (G L T Tr text WH) (Leviticus 11:10); πᾶσα ψυχή, every soul, i. e. everyone, Acts 2:43; Acts 3:23; Romans 13:1 (so כָּל־נֶפֶשׁ, Leviticus 7:17 (27); Lev. 17:12); with ἀνθρώπου added, every soul of man (אָדָם נֶפֶשׁ, Numbers 31:40, 46 (cf. 1 Macc. 2:38)), Romans 2:9. ψυχαί, souls (like the Latin capita) i. e. persons (in enumerations; cf. German Seelenzahl): Acts 2:41; Acts 7:14; Acts 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20 (Genesis 46:15, 18, 22, 26, 27; Exodus 1:5; Exodus 12:4; Leviticus 2:1; Numbers 19:11, 13, 18; (Deuteronomy 10:22); the examples from Greek authors (cf. Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii, p. 2590b) are of a different sort (yet cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)); ψυχαί ἀνθρώπων of slaves (A. V. souls of men (R. V. with marginal reading 'Or lives')), Revelation 18:13 (so (Numbers 31:35); Ezekiel 27:13; see σῶμα, 1 c. (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 22, 7 N. 3)).
2. the soul (Latin animus),
a. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc. (R. V. almost uniformly soul); for examples from Greek writings see Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii., p. 2589b; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 3); Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ, cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus ii, p. 901 in 3): Luke 1:46; Luke 2:35; John 10:24 (cf. αἴρω, 1 b.); Acts 14:2, 22; Acts 15:24; Hebrews 6:19; 2 Peter 2:8, 14; ἡ ἐπιθυμία τῆς ψυχῆς, Revelation 18:14; ἀνάπαυσιν ταῖς ψυχαῖς εὑρίσκειν, Matthew 11:29; ψυχή,... ἀναπαύου, φάγε, πίε (WH brackets these three imperatives), εὐφραίνου (personification and direct address), Luke 12:19, cf. Luke 12:18 (ἡ ψυχή ἀναπαύσεται, Xenophon, Cyril 6, 2, 28; ἐυφραίνειν τήν ψυχήν, Aelian v. h. 1, 32); εὐδοκεῖ ἡ ψυχή μου (anthropopathically, of God), Matthew 12:18; Hebrews 10:38; περίλυπος ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου, Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34; ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται, John 12:27; ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν ἀκλυόμενοι (fainting in your souls (cf. ἐκλύω, 2 b.)), Hebrews 12:3; ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή σου, with all thy soul, Matthew 22:37; (Luke 10:27 L text T Tr WH); ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς σου (Latin ex toto animo), with (literally, from (cf. ἐκ, II. 12 b.)) all thy soul, Mark 12:30, 33 (here T WH omit; L Tr marginal reading brackets the phrase); Luke 10:27 (R G) (Deuteronomy 6:5; (Epictetus diss. 3, 22, 18 (cf. Xenophon, anab. 7, 7, 43)); Antoninus 3, 4; (especially 4, 31; 12, 29); ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή φροντίζειν τίνος (rather, with κεχαρισθαι), Xenophon, mem. 3, 11, 10); μία ψυχή, with one soul (cf. πνεῦμα, 2, p. 520a bottom), Philippians 1:27; τοῦ πλήθους... ἦν ἡ καρδία καί ἡ ψυχή μία, Acts 4:32 (ἐρωτηθεις τί ἐστι φίλος, ἔφη. μία ψυχή δύο σώμασιν ἐνοικουσα, (Diogenes Laërtius 5, 20 (cf. Aristotle, eth. Nic. 9, 8, 2, p. 1168b, 7; on the elliptical ἀπό μιᾶς (namely, ψυχῆς?), see ἀπό, III.)); ἐκ ψυχῆς, from the heart, heartily (Ephesians 6:6 (Tr WH with Ephesians 6:7)); Colossians 3:23 (ἐκ τῆς ψυχῆς often in Xenophon; τό ἐκ ψυχῆς πένθος, Josephus, Antiquities 17, 6, 5).

... it can mean as little as “Breath” or it can mean a great deal more.

 

[atpollard]

Those claims have been shown to be false – all of them – false, because the supporting Scriptures claimed to exists, simply do not;

Supporting scripture was provided.
The ball is in your court to prove that scripture does not support the conclusion, but your original claim is disproven. The scripture exists and has been presented.

 

[atpollard]

[Rev 6:9-11 NASB] 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Are these SOULS dead?
I think not!

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #7 does an exceptionally good job of demonstrating why Thayer felt the need to insert theological statements into his Greek-English lexicon (translation dictionary) regarding the word translated “soul”. Those statements (as presented in Post #1) focused attention on one particular meaning that the Greek word has – a meaning that the corresponding word in Hebrew does not have – that meaning being: an independent, conscious entity that survives human death.

The Greek word had to embraces that particular meaning, to support an idea that was common within pagan religions, including the Greeks’.

The other meanings of that Greek word (other than that of there being “immortal soul” – meanings presented in Post #7) correspond to the equivalent Hebrew word used in the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament” to us). [[See below, to see what they are.]]

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The important point is, that those two words, the Hebrew and the Greek, were used in parallel for multiple hundreds of years before Jesus came along. Yet the Hebrew word kept its distinct meaning based on Divine Inspiration all that time.

And don’t forget the LXX (Septuagint – the Greek translation of the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures made long before Jesus walked the Earth). The translators naturally used the available Greek word – that word that included the “immortal soul” concept.

Did that mean they suddenly changed their beliefs? Decidedly not. The use of that Greek word within the realm of Hebrew (Jewish) beliefs and thoughts, reflected the traditional meaning of the Hebrew word.

So when Jesus used the word “soul” (without stating that He was using the word with a meaning different from the traditional one – because He wasn’t), He was using the word with the original meaning as inspired by God. He was never speaking of an “immortal soul”. (Despite our preconditioning that may make us believe so.)

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Superimposing a meaning on Jesus’ words based on their translation into Greek, can be seen as less than honest. (Despite the necessity to do so, to support imported pagan doctrines that are now endemic within general Christianity.)

And what about the post-apostolic artificial assignment of a significance to a Greek word that the Apostles were obliged to use – the assignment of a linguistically available meaning that was and is alien to God’s original revelation? (That significance (an "immortal soul") remains artificially assigned, unless the Apostles particularly stated something – stated that God’s original revelation had now been proven wrong.)

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Later, we’ll have a closer look at the information offered in Posts #1, #2 and #3.

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The meanings of the Greek word “soul” that parallel the Hebrew word (as extracted from Post #7), are:

1. breath (Latin anima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
b. life
c. that in which there is life; a living being
2. the soul
a. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions

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[MennoSota]

Ezekiel gives us a glimpse of the afterlife where the souls reside in the pit. (Note that John calls on this same imagery in Revelation.)
Ezekiel 32:18-32
“Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to the pit: ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’ They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes. The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. “Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit. They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are placed among the slain. “Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living. And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living. But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword. “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit. “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit. “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord God. For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord God.”

 

[Pedrito]

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It’s amazing the straw-clutching that people will indulge in, to try and find support for cherished doctrines that are not actually based on Scripture.

And much can be learned by taking note of the people who register “Likes” for such Posts.

As a case in point, let’s look at the quote from Revelation presented in Post #9 – presented as evidence that an independent, disembodied, spirit life form (a “soul”) survives human death:

Revelation 6:9-11 NASB:
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

The Author of that Post then asked: Are these SOULS dead? I think not!, and psalms 91 and Lämmchen indicated agreement with that perspective by issuing “Likes”.

So all three – atpollard, psalms 91 and Lämmchen put this verse forward as being literal – speaking of actual, independent, disembodied, spirit life forms that had survived human death.

But is that actually true?

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If the verse is literal, then “souls” – independent, disembodied, spirit life forms that survive human death – have shoulders over which robes (white or otherwise) can be draped. I didn’t know that spirits had shoulders.

These independent, disembodied, spirit life forms that survive human death, also have hands and fingers to receive the white robes when they are given them. I didn’t know that spirits had hands and fingers, either.

It might also be pertinent to ask if the white robes were “one size fits all”, or made to measure.

The passage offered is obviously symbolic in nature, setting forth the delayed, but nonetheless certain, judgement and justice of God. It is one of many symbolic statements in Revelation that made sense to the people of the time in the culture of the day. Even if not all of those statements conjure up the same contextual understanding in our minds.

Once again, we have seen Holy Scripture being manipulated in support of unscriptural doctrine.

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[Albion]

Then Pedrito is arguing that the whole of the Bible is unreliable--or at least that it is all merely symbolic and not to be taken as factual. If you follow the illogic in that post through to the end, that is what is being said.

 

[atpollard]

Once again, we have seen Holy Scripture being manipulated in support of unscriptural doctrine.

I am not sure that taking scripture at literal face-value qualifies as “manipulation”, but let us set that aside.

1. Accepting your argument about the non-literal nature of Rev 6:9-11 as correct, how does that verse support your claim that the spirits were not alive? Even as symbolic, the symbolism suggests LIFE more than DEATH for the SOUL.

2. In the verse: [Matthew 10:28 NASB] "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”, could you explain the phrase “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul”? Was Jesus also merely speaking symbolically of dead souls?

 

[Pedrito]

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Watching people paint themselves into a corner is so much fun. It always happens when post-Apostolic doctrines are put under the microscope. Look at the way two posters have twisted the totally valid point made in Post #12, regarding the use of a clearly symbolic Scripture passage as though it were literal.

The important question has to be: Why did the Posters feel the need to make such outlandish statements? (One is most obviously, deliberately untrue. The other is clearly untrue by implication.)

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Post #13:

Then Pedrito is arguing that the whole of the Bible is unreliable--or at least that it is all merely symbolic and not to be taken as factual. If you follow the illogic in that post through to the end, that is what is being said.

So pointing out the obviously symbolic nature of a particular, small passage of Scripture, as well as its particular misuse in Post #12 (actually, it is customarily, deliberately misused), I am arguing that “the whole of the Bible is unreliable--or at least that it is all merely symbolic and not to be taken as factual”?

I suspect that statements such as that one can be classified as deliberately stupid, but totally necessary. As can the description “illogic” being used of the totally reasonable and appropriate (but normally avoided) logic in Post #12.

The fact that techniques such as those above were deemed necessary to employ in defence of a particular post-apostolic doctrine, speaks volumes – it speaks volumes about the actual unscripturality of that doctrine.

(I’ve pointed out what the use of dishonest techniques actually demonstrates, before. But if certain people see no other option, either to defend against or to attack an unwelcome idea, they still feel duty bound to employ those techniques. They hope that their target audience won’t wake up to the fact that they are being tricked.)

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For sake of space, we’ll look at Post #14 next time. (Further diversionary Posts permitting.)

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[MoreCoffee]

Do you think any of the bible is unreliable Pedrito?

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #14:

I am not sure that taking scripture at literal face-value qualifies as “manipulation”, but let us set that aside..

Using obviously symbolic Scripture as though it were literal, to support personally important beliefs, is definitely manipulation.

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1. Accepting your argument about the non-literal nature of Rev 6:9-11 as correct, how does that verse support your claim that the spirits were not alive? Even as symbolic, the symbolism suggests LIFE more than DEATH for the SOUL.

2. In the verse: [Matthew 10:28 NASB] "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”, could you explain the phrase “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul”? Was Jesus also merely speaking symbolically of dead souls?

Martin Luther may not be considered totally authoritative regarding this matter (especially by Lutherans), but he did have some interesting thoughts. It may be instructive to consider what he thought, and why.

Martin Luther believed in a “soul” that was inextricably bound to the body. He rejected the idea of the immortality of the soul. His study of Holy Scripture (he read Hebrew and Greek with competence) led him to the conclusion that the “soul”, in line with God’s original revelation, died with the body. The “soul” would be resurrected to life with the body at some future time. Martin Luther was by no means alone in that understanding.

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So in line with God’s original revelation (as demonstrated by the Hebrew meaning of the word translated “soul”**), the import of Matthew 10:28 is simple and clear (or at least was to Jesus’ Jewish hearers): don’t fear people who can kill you, because God will resurrect you as a whole; but be careful about crossing God, because He can destroy your whole being in the Valley of Hinnom (a place of total annihilation – transliterated as “Gehenna” in Greek). That stands in stark contrast with what we have been conditioned to believe. But God’s unmanipulated revelation is clear – God can destroy (not torture, notice) both the body and soul in a death from which there is no restoration.

It is both wholesome and totally appropriate to consider the Scripture quotes in Posts #1 and #2 for instance, in that light.


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** Here is the Hebrew word translated “soul” in English, and its meanings in both the Strong’s and Brown-Driver-Briggs’s lexicons (translation dictionaries).

There is not even a hint of an independent, disembodied, spirit life form that survives human death.

H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nephesh

Strong 1. (properly) a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality 2. used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)

Brown-Driver-Briggs 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b. living being
c. living being (with life in the blood)
d. the man himself, self, person or individual
e. seat of the appetites
f. seat of emotions and passions
g. activity of mind
1. dubious
h. activity of the will
1. dubious
i. activity of the character
1. dubious

There are two other instances of Hebrew words being translated “soul”.

H5082 נְדִיבָּה ndiybah (Job 30:15 only)

Strong 1. (properly) nobility, i.e. reputation

Brown-Driver-Briggs 1. nobility, nobleness, noble deeds
a. nobility (of rank), honour
b. noble things

H5397 (Isaiah 57:16 only)

Strong 1. a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal

Brown-Driver-Briggs 1. breath, spirit
a. breath (of God)
b. breath (of man)
c. every breathing thing
d. spirit (of man)

As expressed before: There is not even a hint of an independent, disembodied, spirit life form that survives human death. And this is the Word of God.

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[Andrew]

How can something be destroyed constantly forever? Eternal destruction seems to be impossible as it's an oxymoron unless it's a total mystery.
Being destroyed for all eternity is a different story, it means complete annihilation (permanently destroyed once and for all)

 

[Josiah]

Excellent work, atpollard! Thanks!

 

[Pedrito]

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And here is something else that is conveniently and consistently swept under the carpet. (And one could say with a foot firmly placed on the carpet to keep it from lifting.)

The Nicene Creeds of both 325AD and 381AD (for instance) tell us that Jesus was (and is) God.

And it was also proclaimed by a later church council, that Jesus remained 100% God when He was physically here on Earth.

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Well, that simply means that it was Jesus who guided the development of the Hebrew language – the language in which the Holy Hebrew Scriptures were written.

Jesus particularly inspired the actual definitive meaning of the word “nephesh” (“soul”). He specifically inspired the range of meanings of that word. He specifically inspired that range of meanings to exclude any idea or even any hint of an independent life form that survived human death.

That’s right. Jesus Himself (being God) specifically defined in His Holy Revelation, the meaning of the word translated as “soul”. That meaning did not change, even when translation of the Holy Scriptures into Greek took place. That intended meaning did not change, even though the Greek word available for use by the translators included an extended, pagan meaning associated with pagan religions.

In the search for Truth, we need to acknowledge that, and give it prominence.

(By the way, does God have an independent soul? Have a look at Jeremiah 9:9 emphasis added]: Shall I not visit them for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Take note of how many modern translations take steps to hide that word “soul” in that verse. But the Septuagint – the Greek translation, LXX – retained it.)

When Jesus walked the Earth (as 100% God), He, the One that originally inspired the true meaning of the word “soul”, broadcast His message with the same true meaning of that word “soul” that He Himself (being God) had originally defined. The Apostles, being Jewish of background, followed His lead, even though the Greek word available for use in their writings had an extended meaning in its pagan culture of origin. (They used that word ignoring that extended, pagan meaning – just as the translators of the Septuagint who had preceded them, had done)

So the “normal” significance assigned (both directly and indirectly) to the Scriptures presented in Posts #1, #2, #3, #9, #14, has been retrospectively imposed, and is contrary to Jesus’ own personal teaching. The real significance of each text lies elsewhere.

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And of course, questions that have been asked by many thinking people over the years still stand:
- How can living forever in a state of being mercilessly tortured in fire, be described as death?
- How can an environment of torture in bright flames, be described as “outer darkness”?

Obviously something else that both Jesus and His hearers understood, is going on. That knowledge was expunged by pagan influence, but is easy enough to reconstruct by those who really want to know.

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