The RCC Claim

[Faith]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

 

[Josiah]

Or course not.

The Catholic Church is the largest denomination in the world, very old, and certainly one with many admirable virtues. But Jesus did not found any congregation or denomination thereof. Jesus founded the church catholic (which HE heads).... the community/communion of all believers, of all to whom the Holy Spirit has given faith and made brothers and sisters. but Jesus founded no legal/economic/geopolitical institution of congregations. NOT that there's anything wrong with such earthly institutions but Jesus didn't directly found any of them.



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[Faith]

Or course not.

The Catholic Church is the largest denomination in the world, very old, and certainly one with many admirable virtues. But Jesus did not found any congregation or denomination thereof. Jesus founded the church catholic (which HE heads).... the community/communion of all believers, of all to whom the Holy Spirit has given faith and made brothers and sisters. but Jesus founded no legal/economic/geopolitical institution of congregations. NOT that there's anything wrong with such earthly institutions but Jesus didn't directly found any of them.



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Why do they keep saying that?

 

[Josiah]

Why do they keep saying that?

Power.




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[Faith]

canyou be more specific?

Power.




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[Faith]

Power.




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Can you be more specific?

 

[Lamb]

It's a way of controlling people to insist that Jesus created that church and that they're the only way to heaven.

 

[Faith]

It's a way of controlling people to insist that Jesus created that church and that they're the only way to heaven.

I used to believe them when I was a Catholic, but now I’m not so sure....
How do you guys know the RCC isn’t the. church started by
Jesus?

 

[Josiah]

As the East/West divide grew greater..... as Rome lost much of its power and authority when everything moved to Constantinople and Rome became a small, ruined, cow town... the Bishop of Rome had to invent some way to regain his power. Thus the whole "keys" myth and "Jesus founded my denomination" absurdity. Later, the "beef" was more with secular states than the Eastern Orthodox, but the same myth worked there.

In Catholicism, a teacher isn't right because his teaching is..... rather.... the teaching is right because the teacher is. Read the Catholic Catechism # 85.




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[Albion]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true?

No. There wasn't any such organization as the RCC at the time. Or any other denomination, for that matter. And as for the Popes who are supposed by that theory to be the Christ-ordained heads of his church, the emergence of that institution (the Papacy) was still over 300 years in the future.

But quite a few denominations like to claim that it was their particular church and it only which Christ established. In addition to the Catholic Church, there are the Orthodox churches, the Mormons, and others.

And why not? It makes the members feel special and doctrinally correct, and that makes them loyal to the organization, right?

I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

Only to the extent that it is a Christian church, which is what other Christian churches can say as well. Even if we look at the matter in terms of which one is the oldest (even if it has changed many times since), the Roman Catholic Church would not be the oldest.

 

[Faith]

As the East/West divide grew greater..... as Rome lost much of its power and authority when everything moved to Constantinople and Rome became a small, ruined, cow town... the Bishop of Rome had to invent some way to regain his power. Thus the whole "keys" myth and "Jesus founded my denomination" absurdity. Later, the "beef" was more with secular states than the Eastern Orthodox, but the same myth worked there.

In Catholicism, a teacher isn't right because his teaching is..... rather.... the teaching is right because the teacher is. Read the Catholic Catechism # 85.




.

It seems that the catechism is confirming that the church started by Jesus who passed things along to Peter who passed things along to......

 

[Faith]

No. There wasn't any such organization as the RCC at the time. Or any other denomination, for that matter. And as for the Popes who are supposed by that theory to be the Christ-ordained heads of his church, the emergence of that institution (the Papacy) was still over 300 years in the future.

But quite a few denominations like to claim that it was their particular church and it only which Christ established. In addition to the Catholic Church, there are the Orthodox churches, the Mormons, and others.

And why not? It makes the members feel special and doctrinally correct, and that makes them loyal to the organization, right?

Only to the extent that it is a Christian church, which is what other Christian churches can say as well. Even if we look at the matter in terms of which one is the oldest (even if it has changed many times since), the Roman Catholic Church would not be the oldest.

So the first Pope didn’t head the RCC until 300 years after Jesus? How do we know this to be true?

 

[Faith]

Which church is the oldest?

 

[Faith]

And how do we know that particular church is the oldest?

 

[BohemianBrother]

Currently on the Catholic board and really, anytime I read a Catholic position, they claim that the RCC was established by Christ, Himself. Is this true? I know Martin Luther started out as a Catholic priest but disagreed with the RCC on several things, particularly indulgences. So was the RCC established by Jesus?

It has to do with the crucial ecclesiological question which caused the separation of Catholics and Protestants - is the Church guaranteed that it would always have the correct teachings of the Gospel or is it something that can be muddled up and has to be maintained? A Protestant therefore searches for orthodoxy, while a Catholic looks for institutional continuity. The Catholic church can indeed be traced back to the Apostles in its own defined way, but not necessarily in its teachings and structure.

 

[Faith]

It has to do with the crucial ecclesiological question which caused the separation of Catholics and Protestants - is the Church guaranteed that it would always have the correct teachings of the Gospel or is it something that can be muddled up and has to be maintained? A Protestant therefore searches for orthodoxy, while a Catholic looks for institutional continuity. The Catholic church can indeed be traced back to the Apostles in its own defined way, but not necessarily in its teachings and structure.

Can you give some examples of their teachings and structure that has changed since Apostolic times?

 

[BohemianBrother]

Can you give some examples of their teachings and structure that has changed since Apostolic times?

For example the doctrinal distinction between presbyters/bishops and the relatively recently pronounced dogmas of Papal infallibility and Immaculate Conception.

 

[Albion]

So the first Pope didn’t head the RCC until 300 years after Jesus? How do we know this to be true?

Because 1) the bishop of Rome was not thought of by others as the head of the universal church until about that time, 2) no bishop of Rome was himself claiming jurisdiction over the whole of the Christian world until the fourth century, and 3) the testimony of the Early Church Fathers (whom the RCC refers to as proof of what the Ancient Church believed) contradicts any claim made on behalf of the theory of Papal Supremacy.

You also asked which church is the oldest. There are several with a claim to being older than the Roman Church, but it's generally accepted that the Eastern Orthodox churches are the oldest.

The churches of Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria, are all older than the Roman Church. St. Peter, as you may know, was the bishop of Antioch before he went to Rome. And, in addition, Eastern Orthodoxy has the strongest claim to being the least changed among the Christian denominations, from the first century to the present.

 

[Faith]

For example the doctrinal distinction between presbyters/bishops and the relatively recently pronounced dogmas of Papal infallibility and Immaculate Conception.

Are you sure you don’t mean the Assumption of Mary?

 

[BohemianBrother]

Are you sure you don’t mean the Assumption of Mary?

That one is even better (later). Either way both dogmas I mentioned were pronounced in the 1800s, and were subjects of heated debates within Catholicism before that.