The need for Christ's sacrifice

[Lees]

Care to elaborate how it is mistaken?

Valid point, thank you for making it.

I believe I did elaborate on your mistake. Care to explain what it is that is not clear to you?

Your quite welcome.

Lees

 

[Lees]

(responding to Lees who wrote this:



Of course God could do that! If He were incapable of forgiving sin through the force of His own will, that would verge upon Him ceasing to be God.

In addition, your statement confuses forgiving sin with Him supposedly just ignoring it.
'

It is rudimentary for Christians to believe that God is omnipotent. In addition, the Bible itself shows us that God did not always adhere to the letter of the law that He Himself gave to the Hebrew people.

No. God could not do that. As I said, God cannot cease to be God.

Sin is contrary to God. His righteous nature demands justice. He cannot change Who He is. He will never allow sin to go unpunished. It must be punished.

God cannot wave his hand and just say all sin is forgiven. It is contrary to Him. You can never come into the presence of God as a sinner without judgement coming upon you.

It is your statement that makes God less than God. He just forgives, without sin being paid for. His righteousness means nothing. He is nothing but an old hen loving his poor children. Gag.

God doesn't follow the law. Where in the world did you get that?

Lees

 

[panhead1]

I believe I did elaborate on your mistake. Care to explain what it is that is not clear to you?

Your quite welcome.

Lees

Ha, that is what I get for reading comprehension, I mistakenly thought you posted the verse again.

 

[Lees]

Ha, that is what I get for reading comprehension, I mistakenly thought you posted the verse again.

The entire sacrificial system given by God in the Old Testament demonstrates the need for a substitute for the individual believer and the believers as a whole. An innocent slain for you who are guilty.

Your use of passages in the Old Testament to prove God doesn't want a sacrifice or a human sacrifice are mistaken.

On the earth God will react to an individual, saved or not, in accordance to his doings. If he is evil, and participating in evil, God will act against him. If he is being 'good', as far as good in man's eyes goes, trying to do right by what he knows, then he doesn't make himself an enemy to God and doesn't draw the immediate judgement of God upon him.

None of this removes the need for a human sacrifice to substitute for man. From the very beginning when God had innocent animals slain to cover Adam and Eve, He has shown the need for sacrifice.

Lees

 

[Albion]

No. God could not do that. As I said, God cannot cease to be God.

Except that that is what you have been arguing here by insisting that he is not omnipotent. See my prior post for the essential information on which to make your decision.

 

[Spindle4]

Judaism also teaches that God does not really desire those sacrifices, that our prayers are enough. Even the prayers of non-Jews are said to be heard and answered.
1 Kings 8:

Hi panhead1,

In simple terms the Bible teaches the need for sacrifice is to save from sin, its penalty, power, and presence. The Old Testament sacrifices could not achieve this in perpetuity, which only the voluntary sacrifice of the sinless Son of God could obtain.

The first blood sacrifice provided Adam & Eve with a covering after they sinned.

The first Passover sacrifice provided Israel with a covering when the Judgment of God required firstborn sons be killed.

The last blood sacrifice of Christ provides all sinners who confess Him as their Saviour with a covering on the Day of Judgment so that while we saints will be Judged for works we will not be Judged for sin.

Looking at the context of 1 Kings 8 we find it is about Solomon bringing the Ark of the Covenant to the newly built Temple, and his prayer of dedication. The next chapter is worth close scrutiny because it puts forward God's conditions in response to Solomon's petitioning God to be merciful to those coming before Him in the new temple.

1Ki 8:31 "When anyone sins against his neighbor, and is forced to take an oath, and comes and takes an oath before Your altar in this temple,

1Ki 8:33 "When Your people Israel are defeated before an enemy because they have sinned against You, and when they turn back to You and confess Your name, and pray and make supplication to You in this temple,

1Ki 8:35 "When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against You, when they pray toward this place and confess Your name, and turn from their sin because You afflict them,

1Ki 8:38 whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple:


1Ki 9:1-9 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished building the house of the LORD and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he wanted to do, (2) that the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon. (3) And the LORD said to him: "I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. (4) Now if you walk before Me as your father David walked, in integrity of heart and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and My judgments, (5) then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised David your father, saying, 'You shall not fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.' (6) But if you or your sons at all turn from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, (7) then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight. Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all peoples. (8) And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and will hiss, and say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' (9) Then they will answer, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this calamity on them.' "

 

[Lees]

Except that that is what you have been arguing here by insisting that he is not omnipotent. See my prior post for the essential information on which to make your decision.

Not so. God is omnipotent.

You, on the other hand, are pitting Gods nature against Himself. Foolish.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. His 'omniscience' doesn't negate His omipotence, or omnipresence, or vice versa. And none of these negate His righteous nature. All of these work with His righteous nature. They do not work against His righteous nature.

This is why you only quote one sentence of my reply. Trying to ignore the totality of what I said. Typical...of those, and you, trying to deceive.

[Staff Edit] For example: The atheist's love to set forth the argument...can God make a rock so big that He cannot carry?

It is a stupid question. Why? Because it pits God against Himself. And God cannot cease to be God. The answer: God can make a rock as big as He wants and He can carry any rock He makes.

It is you that question God...not me.

Lees

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

On the earth God will react to an individual, saved or not, in accordance to his doings. If he is evil, and participating in evil, God will act against him. If he is being 'good', as far as good in man's eyes goes, trying to do right by what he knows, then he doesn't make himself an enemy to God and doesn't draw the immediate judgement of God upon him.

What verses would you offer that show this?

 

[Lees]

What verses would you offer that show this?

The world works on the laws God has established. They work for both the good and the evil, the just and the unjust. (Matt. 5:45)

If a man is a God or Christ rejector, yet a law abiding person, and who works hard at his job, and raising his family, he will reap the reward for that, on this earth. For that is open for anyone. He is still alienated from God. But a man reaps what he sows. (Gal. 6:7)

Lees

 

[Albion]

Not so. God is omnipotent.

But you have contended here that God is unable to do something or other--even if he wills it.

You, on the other hand, are pitting Gods nature against Himself.

The idea that God is not omnipotent is one that's indefensible, at least among people who confess the God of the Bible as the true God.

And resorting to what are purely word games like this old favorite: "God cannot make a square circle" will not change the facts about God's nature.

There is nothing impossible (like a square circle would be) about God having set forth a set of rules for a certain people at a certain time in history and then, when their purpose had been accomplished, adding to or amplifying those commands of his when the time was right for the same people to accept the next step.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The world works on the laws God has established. They work for both the good and the evil, the just and the unjust. (Matt. 5:45)

If a man is a God or Christ rejector, yet a law abiding person, and who works hard at his job, and raising his family, he will reap the reward for that, on this earth. For that is open for anyone. He is still alienated from God. But a man reaps what he sows. (Gal. 6:7)

Lees

Thank you for clarifying. And I would agree

 

[Lees]

But you have contended here that God is unable to do something or other--even if he wills it.

The idea that God is not omnipotent is one that's indefensible, at least among people who confess the God of the Bible as the true God.

And resorting to what are purely word games like this old favorite: "God cannot make a square circle" will not change the facts about God's nature.

There is nothing impossible (like a square circle would be) about God having set forth a set of rules for a certain people at a certain time in history and then, when their purpose had been accomplished, adding to or amplifying those commands of his when the time was right for the same people to accept the next step.

I have contended that God cannot cease to be Himself. He cannot will Himself to do what His nature is against.

God cannot sin. Or, do you think God can sin because he is omnipotent? Ridiculous. As, that is what you're saying.

As I have said, God cannot cease to be God. God cannot just wave His hand and forgive sin just because He waves His hand. His nature demands justice and judgement.

The only reason God chose a substitutionary sacrifce to redeem man, was because that was the only thing that would work. It was the only thing that His righteous nature would be propitiated with.

Yet, you seem to think that the Son's life was so unimportant to God, that, though He could have just waved His hand, He instead decided to torture and kill His Son. My, my...what a god that would be.

Lees

 

[SetFree]

So, if our prayers are in fact enough and what God really desires, what is the actual need for the crucifixion?

Hebrews 2:14 and 1 John 3:8 reveals why The Son was born in the flesh to die on the cross. It was to defeat death and the devil.

Those 2 Scriptures reveal that the power of death was assigned to the devil, and that the devil sinned from the beginning, and for this reason was The Son of God manifested in order to defeat all that for us.

In Galatians 3:22, Apostle Paul says the Scriptures have concluded us all under sin so that the Promise by Faith might be to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

So that kind of... points to the need to know how sin and death came about with what Satan did in the beginning. Per the parable of Ezekiel 28, God reveals that He originally created Satan perfect in his ways. It was Satan's job as a covering cherub to guard God's throne. Instead, Satan coveted God's throne and desired to be God. That is how he fell. And that actually was the very 1st... sin.

God assigned the result of Satan's sin then to be death, already judging and sentencing Satan to perish in the future "lake of fire", along with death. And Satan was given the power of death. This means that there is no evil with our Heavenly Father at all. All evil and sin originates from the devil. The devil originally followed God, until iniquity was found in him. However, for this present world, God will 'use' Satan and evil as a punishing rod upon the rebellious, even though He is still not the author of evil (thus many folk's misunderstanding of Isaiah 45:7 which is actually God saying He causes calamity upon the rebellious for 'this' world).

So by Lord Jesus Christ sacrificing Himself upon His cross for those who believe on Him and The Father, God chose that way to defeat the devil and death for us. And also for this reason, starting in Genesis, the devil tried many times to prevent the Family of Christ (the Seed He was to be born through) from existing. (I believe the devil knew if Jesus were born and died on the cross, that would seal the devil's fate towards destruction in the "lake of fire".)

These things are not taught in most Churches today. But they are part of God's Word, and are written and hinted at. The powers in this world exist to make the believer doubt these things in The Word of God so that they remained confused about what is really going on in this present world.