The Messiah and the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe of Matthew 12:40?

rstrats

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When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah, why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Is there something meaningful about that time period?
 

Josiah

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@rstrats


The problem is modern readers IMPOSING our culture upon another, insisted that "three days and three nights" MUST equal EXACTLY 72 hours (not 71, not 73). When in that culture, it could mean as little as 26 hours.



Here's the article:

There has been a long standing misunderstanding over the meaning of Matthew 12:40, “for just as Jonah was three days ane three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” In my opinion, the evidence supports the traditional view that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon and was in the grave part of Friday (the day of preparation cf. Luke 23:54-55), all of Saturday (Luke 23:56), and part of Sunday, the first day of the week (Luke 24:1). Some of the evidence for this is as follows:

(1) To us, three days and three nights generally means 72 hours, but we must understand the Bible historically and culturally. For the Jewish mind, this could mean any part of the first day, all of the second day, and any part of the third day. This is obvious by comparing Esther 4:16 and 5:1. Esther mentioned fasting for three days and nights and said that she would then go into the king, which she did, but 5:1 tells us clearly that it was on the third day that she went into the king, not after three days or on the fourth. This simply illustrates the way the Jews reckoned time.

(2) Further, the statement “after three days” could mean to the Jewish mind “on the third day” since any part of that day was considered the third day (cf. Matt. 27:63-64). Note the statements, “after three days” and securing the tomb until the third day. More will be said on this below.

(3) But on the third day could not mean on the fourth day, i.e., after a full 72 hours. Compare Luke 24:1 with 24:21. We read that they arrived at the tomb “on the third day” and then in verse 21 it is stated that “it is the third day.” This would be impossible to say if Jesus had stayed in the tomb for a full 72 hours for it would then be the fourth day. His resurrection would have had to be after the third day and on the fourth.

(4) Also, “the day of preparation” (Luke 23:54) could only refer to Friday before the Sabbath since no work of any kind could be done on the Sabbath, the seventh day. On other Sabbaths, holy days, domestic work could be done like making fire and cooking. No special preparation was needed for those Sabbaths or holy days, but not so on “the High Sabbath.” We might also note that the “day of preparation,” the Greek paraskeue, means Friday in modern Greek. See Ex. 16:22-23. The point here is that Friday is the only day a preparation day was needed as a preparation for the Sabbath, our Saturday.

(5) In several passages (the majority, about 4-1) it is said Jesus would rise “on the third day.” If the resurrection occurred after a full 72 hours (3 days) it would have been on the fourth. Compare Matt. 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Luke 24:7, 21, 46; 1 Cor. 15:4. See below also regarding the use of the dative case here.

(6) In my mind, comparing all that is said in Luke 23:54-24:1 and John 19:31, settles the issue because of the day of preparation, Friday, being needed to prepare for a special high day or high Sabbath along with the fact the women came to the tomb on Sunday morning which is described as the third day.

(7) Finally, the Jews who heard the Lord use the phrase “three days and three nights” in Matt. 12:40 did not seem to necessarily understand a full 72 hours. Compare their comment in Matt. 27:62-64.

62 Now on the next day (i.e., the High Sabbath, Saturday), which is the one after the preparation (i.e., Friday), the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ 64 “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, lest the disciples come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.”
Note, they said, “until the third day, not until the fourth.” Matthew could have used a Greek construction here which would have stressed through (duration) the third day, but using the preposition eo„s with the genitive, it basically meant “till or up to” and does not stress the idea of duration meaning “through.” The genitive case typically stresses during, at, or within a time range. Had the accusative been used alone or with a different preposition, it could have stressed extent or duration of time.

It is probably significant that “Every occurrence of the ‘the third day’ with reference to Jesus’ resurrection in the Gospels is put in the dat. (dative case) without an accompanying preposition” (Dan Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basic, Zondervan, p. 156). The significance of this is that nouns used in the dative case like “the third day” express a point in time rather than duration of time. So it means, “at a point in time, on the third day.”

End of article





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rstrats

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@rstrats


The problem is modern readers IMPOSING our culture upon another, insisted that "three days and three nights" MUST equal EXACTLY 72 hours (not 71, not 73). When in that culture, it could mean as little as 26 hours.








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I don't see what that has to do with the OP. The scribes and Pharisees asked the Messiah for a sign. What do you think they wanted the sign to show or prove?
 

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When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah, why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Is there something meaningful about that time period?
Jonah was also 3 days and nights in the fish.
3 is the number of God, Trinity

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection.

Hosea 6 Israel revived is also on the third day.
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.


God consistently showed up on the third day, provided revelation on the third day, granted victory on the third day, provided salvation on the third day, granted healing on the third day, and revealed Himself on the third day.
 

Albion

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Taking all of that under consideration, it looks like Josiah's conclusion was the correct one.
 

Messy

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Taking all of that under consideration, it looks like Josiah's conclusion was the correct one.
No He was crucified on Thursday. There was a Sabbath for Pesach and then the weekly Sabbath.


Since He was crucified on a Thursday, He was in the grave Thursday, Thursday night, Friday (special Sabbath), Friday night, and Saturday (weekly Sabbath), and Saturday night. He arose ON the third day after the Sabbath rests were complete: three days and three nights.The Wednesday Crucifixion makes Messiah and those who greeted Him as He rode into into Jerusalem “sinners.”

3. The Wednesday crucifixion folks say Passover (14th day of Abib) was on a Wednesday. That means the Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on a previously unridden beast on the Sabbath Day (10th of Abib). It also means that the crowd, who broke branches off the trees to honor Him were in sin also.

Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on the 10th of Abib in fulfillment of the original command to bring the Passover lamb into the house on that day:

(Exo 12:3-6 NASB) “Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers’ households, a lamb for each household. ‘Now if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the number of persons in them; according to what each man should eat, you are to divide the lamb. ‘Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. ‘And you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

If the crucifixion was a Wednesday, then the 10th of Abib was on the Sabbath. That means Yeshua broke the Sabbath by making the previously unridden beast work and the people who greeted Him broke the Sabbath when they broke branches out of the trees to honor Him.
The Wednesday crucifixion hypothesis shows Yeshua and the people definitively breaking the Sabbath. While beasts should be fed and watered on the Sabbath (Luke 13:15), they are to rest on the Sabbath just like the people (Exodus 20:8-11). Also, let’s not forget that even picking up sticks (not to mention breaking off branches) is a violation of the Sabbath Day (Numbers 15:32-36).

4. One other thing…

The 70 Weeks of Daniel are crucial! It is in Daniel Chapter 9 that Scriptures tell the exact day that Yeshua would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and be publicly honored as the Messiah. According to the calculations by Sir Robert Anderson, Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard over 100 years ago in his book “The Coming Prince,” Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on April 6, 32 AD.
 
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Stravinsk

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When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah, why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Is there something meaningful about that time period?

Christ made these statements with regarding His being crucified and resurrected:

"Three days and three nights"
"On the third day"
"After 3 days"

When considering numbers, they are either cardinal or ordinal.

A Cardinal Number is a number that says how many of something there are, such as one, two, three, four, five.

An Ordinal Number is a number that tells the position of something in a list, such as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc.

I take all the statements above as literal, and do not apply supposed "Jewish thinking" (part of a day = a full day stuff), and therefore I must treat the statements as either being a cardinal count or an ordinal position.

Your question as to the meaningfulness of the phrase is answered here already, it refers to the sign of Jonah. What's more, the sign of Jonah points to the 3rd day of the week in Genesis. It's on the 3rd day of the week that the water recedes and life appears for the first time. Jonah is expelled from the sea onto dry ground, and in Genesis, the waters receded and dry ground first appears on the 3rd day.
 

Albion

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No He was crucified on Thursday. There was a Sabbath for Pesach and then the weekly Sabbath.

If you are convinced of that, you are putting yourself in the company of a very small group of Christians, mainly members of one or another church that's generally considered to be a cult.

That should come as a sobering realization.

Such a situation is always worth a second (and third?) thought--"Am I correct about this when so many Christians, including Bible experts, say the opposite?"
 

Stravinsk

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She's convinced, and you are both incorrect. The original Hebrew calendar was luni-solar and Sabbaths and Holy days fell on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the Lunar month.

There was one Sabbath that week...the "high Sabbath" that also happened to be the weekly Sabbath. The day before, the preparation, was when Christ was killed.

Since there was no days of the week as we understand them, ie: "Monday, Tuesday etc", there was only days of the week in reference to Sabbath.

The phrase "The first day of the week" used in the New Testament - in the Greek is literally rendered "One (day) of the Sabbaths" - the word "day" (in feminine form) being added as the feminine tense of the word "one" must have a noun to modify.

"Sabbaths" is in the genitive plural form. There was a word for week in the Greek used, as we find in the Septuagint. This word for week is not used here. It is "Sabbaths" and plural.

It is wholly unclear what day it actually is, unless one believes a literal interpretation of Christ's saying he will rise "the 3rd day", which would place it as the 3rd day of the week.
 

Messy

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She's convinced, and you are both incorrect. The original Hebrew calendar was luni-solar and Sabbaths and Holy days fell on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the Lunar month.

There was one Sabbath that week...the "high Sabbath" that also happened to be the weekly Sabbath. The day before, the preparation, was when Christ was killed.

Since there was no days of the week as we understand them, ie: "Monday, Tuesday etc", there was only days of the week in reference to Sabbath.

The phrase "The first day of the week" used in the New Testament - in the Greek is literally rendered "One (day) of the Sabbaths" - the word "day" (in feminine form) being added as the feminine tense of the word "one" must have a noun to modify.

"Sabbaths" is in the genitive plural form. There was a word for week in the Greek used, as we find in the Septuagint. This word for week is not used here. It is "Sabbaths" and plural.

It is wholly unclear what day it actually is, unless one believes a literal interpretation of Christ's saying he will rise "the 3rd day", which would place it as the 3rd day of the week.
They find that out with when the moon was where and when it was Pesach.
 

Messy

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If you are convinced of that, you are putting yourself in the company of a very small group of Christians, mainly members of one or another church that's generally considered to be a cult.

That should come as a sobering realization.

Such a situation is always worth a second (and third?) thought--"Am I correct about this when so many Christians, including Bible experts, say the opposite?"
He says it's just a fun trivia and absolutely not important. It could also be wednesday. I first thought that. Look up the texts they have for it. But he says no cause then they broke the sabbath. He's a Messianic Jew. For these things you can better ask them than some gentile christian, who has no idea that there were 2 sabbaths in a week. I also saw another one say Jesus was conceived around Christmas, with Hannukah, all the light feasts, the Light came in the world and they have texts for it. Then was John the baptist born, Mary 3 months pregnant when she visited.
 

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They find that out with when the moon was where and when it was Pesach.

I don't believe Judaism's Calendar is the original one, nor the one used at the time of Christ. Their Sabbath is "Saturn's Day", 6th "planet" from the sun, 7th heavenly body if one includes the sun. Remphan/Chiun "the star of your god" - 6 pointed star - Saturn.
 

Messy

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I don't believe Judaism's Calendar is the original one, nor the one used at the time of Christ. Their Sabbath is "Saturn's Day", 6th "planet" from the sun, 7th heavenly body if one includes the sun. Remphan/Chiun "the star of your god" - 6 pointed star - Saturn.
I don't think it matters.

  • Astronomy

    NASA astronomy data serves as an accurate method to determine the Passover dates as an alternative to unreliable calendars of antiquity. (Calendar conversions of antiquity are unreliable due to variations of Julian and Gregorian calendars.)[8]

    Each year for thousands of years, Jewish Nissan 15th, Passover, always occurs on the first full moon after March 20th.[9] Easily seen in NASA astronomy data, full moon dates with these parameters for the years 28-33 AD are:[10]

    28 AD: March 29 (Monday) 31 AD: April 17 (Tuesday)
    29 AD: March 18 (Friday) 32 AD: April 14 (Monday)
    30 AD: April 6 (Thursday) 33 AD: April 3 (Friday)
 

Stravinsk

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  • Astronomy

    NASA astronomy data serves as an accurate method to determine the Passover dates as an alternative to unreliable calendars of antiquity. (Calendar conversions of antiquity are unreliable due to variations of Julian and Gregorian calendars.)[8]

    Each year for thousands of years, Jewish Nissan 15th, Passover, always occurs on the first full moon after March 20th.[9] Easily seen in NASA astronomy data, full moon dates with these parameters for the years 28-33 AD are:[10]

    28 AD: March 29 (Monday) 31 AD: April 17 (Tuesday)
    29 AD: March 18 (Friday) 32 AD: April 14 (Monday)
    30 AD: April 6 (Thursday) 33 AD: April 3 (Friday)

Even if this is correct, it doesn't harmonize "3 days and 3 nights", "after 3 days" and "on the 3rd day" all to mean the "first day of the week", which cannot possibly fit if Friday was Crucifixion day and Sunday was Resurrection day.

However, a 3rd day (of the week) Resurrection does.

Sat (night), Sat (day) =1 day, 1 night
Sun(night), Sun(day)= 2 day, 2 night
Mon(night),Mon(day)=3 day, 3 night

Third day (Tues) falls after 3 days and 3 nights, so fulfills

"3 days and 3 nights"
"after 3 days"
"on the 3rd day"

Of course I'm not suggesting that Tuesday be made a holy day, since I don't believe in the perpetually cycling 7 day week. The moon was made for appointed times, as Genesis says. The first appointed time is the Sabbath, so it cannot be every Saturn's day.
 

Messy

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Even if this is correct, it doesn't harmonize "3 days and 3 nights", "after 3 days" and "on the 3rd day" all to mean the "first day of the week", which cannot possibly fit if Friday was Crucifixion day and Sunday was Resurrection day.

However, a 3rd day (of the week) Resurrection does.

Sat (night), Sat (day) =1 day, 1 night
Sun(night), Sun(day)= 2 day, 2 night
Mon(night),Mon(day)=3 day, 3 night

Third day (Tues) falls after 3 days and 3 nights, so fulfills

"3 days and 3 nights"
"after 3 days"
"on the 3rd day"

Of course I'm not suggesting that Tuesday be made a holy day, since I don't believe in the perpetually cycling 7 day week. The moon was made for appointed times, as Genesis says. The first appointed time is the Sabbath, so it cannot be every Saturn's day.
If it was 30AD it was on a thursday.

With Yeshua being buried before sundown on Thursday and resurrecting after the weekly Sabbath, He is in the ground less than three full days (less than 72 hours) making it ON the third day that He is raised.

A pity that they all say something else. I have no idea who's right. The guy from the link says it was a thursday in 32ad.

According to the calculations by Sir Robert Anderson, Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard over 100 years ago in his book “The Coming Prince,” Yeshua rode into Jerusalem on April 6, 32 AD. According to his thorough investigation (others have come up with various other specific days of the week for that year, but I trust his research more than others), Passover in 32 A.D. was on a Thursday.
 

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@Messy

What is of significance for me about the 3rd day (of the week), is what Genesis has to say about it. On earth, there is no life before this day. There is the waters, the firmament, light and darkness...but there is no life. The 3rd day is when the waters recede and life appears for the first time. Not human or animal, but plant life. It springs forth from nothing, from darkness to rise from the earth. Plant life is the basis on which all other life subsists. Either directly through consumption, or indirectly through consumption of plant eaters.

The life is in the blood. But the blood of those who have the breath of life (animals and humans) is strictly forbidden. So the Jews of Christ's time (and most Christians today) cannot understand what Christ says when He says "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood". The Jew says "How can he give us his flesh to eat?" and the Christian thinks it's some mysterious alchemy. But Christ made it clear at passover. He broke bread and said "this is my body". He said the fruit of the vine was "his blood". And they were.

What is largely unknown in Christianity is what Eusebius records of the early Ebionites, who claimed that Christ declared that He came to end the Sacrifice of animals. At least that which was being done in His name. Jeremiah says God never commanded it. He hated that it was being done in His name.
 

Messy

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thurs-3-days-chart.jpg

Was Jesus Crucified on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday?

Come to your own conclusion, but always remember it’s not about the day of the week on which the crucifixion took place. It’s all about the One who was crucified in our place and rose from the dead and lives. He offers forgiveness of sins and life eternal to all who repent and trust in Him.


This would be great if it's true:


Daniel’s prophecy of the triumphal entry of Israel’s Messiah was precise to the day.
 

Albion

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He says it's just a fun trivia and absolutely not important. It could also be wednesday. I first thought that. Look up the texts they have for it. But he says no cause then they broke the sabbath. He's a Messianic Jew. For these things you can better ask them than some gentile christian, who has no idea that there were 2 sabbaths in a week. I also saw another one say Jesus was conceived around Christmas, with Hannukah, all the light feasts, the Light came in the world and they have texts for it. Then was John the baptist born, Mary 3 months pregnant when she visited.
I'm glad to have this reply from you. I too find all these theories to be interesting and even informative, but it's when Christians buy into them as if they are the truth at last revealed, and so on, that we should remember there's a reason that almost the whole of the Christian world, regardless of denomination, thinks otherwise.

It's not just because they always thought as they do, and as a result they're going to stick with it. Or they like customs better than the real facts.

So now that you've put your own position into better focus for the rest of us, I'm happy you took the time to do that. Thanks.
 

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When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah, why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Is there something meaningful about that time period?

Back with your pet riddle. This was debated by you in the 'Ethics and Debate Forum' already. Under the title 'Common Figure of Speech'. And there I showed you what was meaningful about Jesus being in the heart of the earth 3 days and nights.

Lees
 

rstrats

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Jonah was also 3 days and nights in the fish.
3 is the number of God, Trinity

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection.

Hosea 6 Israel revived is also on the third day.
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.


God consistently showed up on the third day, provided revelation on the third day, granted victory on the third day, provided salvation on the third day, granted healing on the third day, and revealed Himself on the third day.
But why did the Messiah choose 3 daytimes and 3 night times in the heart of the earth to be the sign that the scribes and Pharisees were asking Him for? Was there something significant about that particular length of time?
 
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