The Messiah and the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe of Matthew 12:40?

[Lees]

Here's your lesson Lees, man of lesser mind (I'm referring to you, not them). You don't need to get the books I mentioned. Just apply the apologetics that is asserted by our member Origen here. Every time you see the word "first" or "one", replace them with the other, and every time you see Sabbath you can replace it with "week" and everything will make sense! lol. Because some apologist said so!

Well...all those men who are not of lesser minds, disagrees with you.

Again, what Greek text are you translating from? And what Bible demonstrates the translation you are presenting?

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Mk 16:2 - The Women Came to the Tomb on a Sabbath

Mk 16:2: "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they [the women] came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun." - This is the text of the KIng James Bible (KJV), but the basic Greek text speaks of a Sabbath. There are several variants in the Greek text families, which even...

bible-menorah.jimdofree.com

Martin Luther also translated correctly and wrote in 1522 and 1545 (last edition):
"And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And they came to the tomb on a Sabbath very early, when the sun was rising.
Original German: „Und da der Sabbat vergangen war, kauften Maria Magdalena und Maria des Jakobus und Salome Spezerei, auf dass sie kämen und salbeten ihn. 2 Und sie kamen zum Grabe an einem Sabbater sehr frühe, da die Sonne aufging.“

Especially the old German Bibles were very accurate. Most of them were Catholic. Every child can understand this and does not equate Saturday with Sunday. Only the theologians do not know the difference between the days. It is not about the 7 Sundays to Pentecost, but about the 7 Saturdays to Pentecost. Therefore Mentelin writes that the women came to the tomb "on one of the Saturdays". It should not be forgotten that Mentelin translated from the Latin Vulgate, as the basic Greek text was not available to him. He grew up with the Latin language and knew that "sabbati" and "sabbatorum" can only mean Saturday and Sabbath, and never the day after, Sunday.

Interesting. A quote from a link within that article (highlight mine):

Ancient Greek is imprecise with regard to the Sabbath because it is a foreign word from Hebrew and its use in Greek has special grammatical characteristics. This includes the fact that the plural (σαββατων) was also understood in the singular, depending on the context. The Septuagint gives numerous examples of this. But also in the NT most of the Bibles of the world have translated the plural (σαββατων) as singular in some verses (not only in Mt 28,1a). Another peculiarity is that although the Sabbath is a Neutrum, the feminine "mia" (μια, a/one) was nevertheless placed before the "Sabbath" (Neutrum), because the Sabbath is also a day and days are feminine in Greek. Furthermore, sometimes the day (ημερα, hemera) was meant, even if this word was not written. The two text variants at Jn 20:19 and 1Cor 16:2 are one of many proofs that the plural σαββατων (Sabbath/s) in ancient Greek was also understood as singular (Sabbath), that both forms were arbitrarily interchangeable and that both always meant only one Sabbath day and never Sunday or the 7-day week (see week). Theologians have come up with these new crazy definitions to remove the Sabbath from the Bible. For example, they said that "on one of the Sabbaths" could also mean "on a Sunday", "on the first day of the week" or "after the Sabbath", although there are quite different expressions for this in Greek (see examples). The Codex Bezae from the year 400 AD even uses the Sabbath in the singular in Mk 16:2, as in Mk 16:9. Every Greek word was chosen by God and must not be replaced by another. However, the translation (without substitutions) is very easy:

This is interesting because if it's true, then it doesn't matter that the adj modifier (one) is feminine and can only modify a feminine noun, as would apply to the language normally.

 

[Messy]

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[Lees]

I think he's referring to here: https://christianityhaven.com/threads/common-figure-of-speech.5507/post-221647

Where the relevant quote from him is:



Of course, it doesn't work this way either. Since if the count is started from Thursday night:

Thursday night (1 night) (Thursday Day is not counted as it's already past)
Friday day, Friday night (1 day, 2 nights)
Saturday day, Saturday night(2 days, 3 nights)
Sunday day (3 days, 3 nights)

The problem with this reckoning, however, is that the Gospel of John records Mary coming to the tomb "while it was still dark" John 20:1. Even if somehow Christ rose right at the crack of dawn (which would contradict John), that hardly counts for a "day"...more like an hour or something.

So what?

See again my post #(36). When Jesus referred to His Resurrection He only specified that it would be on the third day.

Again, (Matt. 12:40) is not a timeline for the Resurrection.

But I am curious as to your determination of day and night. Where did you arrive at a Thurday night, and then made the statement that Thurday day is not counted as it is already past?

Be specific in your answer, showing how Scripture supports it. My question is rather involved. Show what a Biblical 24 hour day is. Explain how both evening and morning make up the 'day'. (Gen. 1:5) In other words, the term day can also refer to just the light, a 12 hour time period. (Gen. 1:5)

Lees

 

[Lees]

I believe Jesus being three days and nights in the heart of the earth, (Matt. 12:40), has particular meaning to the Jews, as this phrase is only found in (Matthew) which presents Jesus as King of the Jews.

Note that the only other gospel that records this same event with Jonah as a sign is in (Luke 11:29-32). And there, there is no mention of Jonah being in the belly of the whale three days and nights as a sign. No comparison to Jesus being in the heart of the earth. All that is presented is Jonah preaching to the Ninevites and they repenting. (11:32) This is fitting as Luke is a Gentile and writing with emphasis to the Greeks, (Luke 1:3) or Gentiles, and presenting the humanity of Jesus.

Note also in (Matthew) Jesus is answering specifically to the Jewish scribes and Pharisees. (Matt. 12:38) But in (Luke) we are only told he was addressing the people. Which I believe is further proof of Matthew's comparison of Jesus being in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the belly of the whale, having speacial meaning to the Jews.

I believe the 'heart of the earth' represents the time when Jesus is delivered, by the Jews, into the hands of earthly authorities. And this would begin at night in the Garden of Gethsemane. Remember Jesus didn't allow man to have his way with Him until this time. (Luke 4: 28-30) But now He is delivered. (Matt. 26:56-57) "But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled."

The question remains, how is Jesus three days and nights in the heart of the earth a 'sign'? If the Resurrection is not the sign, how is this a sign?

Lees

 

[Messy]

I believe the 'heart of the earth' represents the time when Jesus is delivered, by the Jews, into the hands of earthly authorities.

I believe it's just literal and that hell is in the magma. Jonah died and he went behind the foundations of the mountains. That is not in the sea or in the fish.

Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.

6 I went down to the [a]moorings of the mountains;
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord, my God.


With Moses they were swallowed into the ground and went alive to Hades.

Numbers 16:32-34
​

32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly. 34 Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also!”

And Saul with the witch of Endor. Samuel came up from the ground. Abraham's bosom was also in the earth.


1 Samuel 28

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a[a] spirit ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

So this is not the witch only imagining he comes up.

And when Jesus rose, the O.T. saints rose too and could go with Him to heaven.

 

[Lees]

I believe the 'sign of the prophet Jonah' to the Jews, represents the Jews wilful rejection of their Messiah, turning Him over to be killed. It was by their wicked hands that He was delivered. (Acts 2:23) 'Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." See also (Acts 2:36)

So, for three days and nights Jesus is under the authority and judgement of earthly authority. Just as Jonah was. Note how that when the sailors were told by Jonah to throw him overboard, that they at first refused. (Jonah 1:11-13) Just like Pilate trying to set Jesus free. (John 18:38-39) (John 19:4) (John 19:12) The sailors rowed the harder, but to no avail. (Jonah 1:13) And why didn't Jonah just jump overboard? Because the judgement must be executed by man to have benefit before God. So they threw him over. (Jonah 1:15) And he remained dead to the world for three days and nights.

For all intents and purposes, God is dead to Israel, by their choice. Thus you have the examples given of Jonah preaching to Nineveh instead of Israel. (Matt. 12:41) And the Gentile queen of Sheba wanting to hear the wisdom of Solomon. (Matt. 12:42)

I believe it is as though God is telling Israel, 'you turned me over to earthly authority, so I turn from you to all of the earth'.

Lees