the meaning of Baptism

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Albion

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Okay then, try it this way....
A: What does it mean to be born of water?
To be baptized. Jesus even demonstrated it.

B: Can a person be saved and enter the Kingdom of God,
simply by believing in Jesus and not being baptised in or with water, water-baptised?
Virtually every denomination, Catholic or Protestant, answers "yes'"

Can a person be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ alone without water-baptism?
Yes. There are occasionally unusual and extenuating circumstances that can preclude a person from being baptized with water.
 

MoreCoffee

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Okay then, try it this way....
A: What does it mean to be born of water?

Q: What does it mean to be born of water?
A: Nothing. Jesus said one must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

B: Can a person be saved and enter the Kingdom of God,
simply by believing in Jesus and not being baptised in or with water, water-baptised?

Q: Can a person be saved and enter the Kingdom of God, simply by believing in Jesus and not being baptised in or with water, water-baptised?
A: Jesus said "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit". Evidently no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Just asking your opinion on A, and yes or no on B, in your opinion.
No need to post one of the many verses already posted about it, or another.

Can a person be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ alone without water-baptism?

Q: Can a person be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ alone without water-baptism?
A: Yes, Moses was not baptised and he is saved.
 

psalms 91

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Q: What does it mean to be born of water?
A: Nothing. Jesus said one must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.



Q: Can a person be saved and enter the Kingdom of God, simply by believing in Jesus and not being baptised in or with water, water-baptised?
A: Jesus said "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit". Evidently no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.



Q: Can a person be saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ alone without water-baptism?
A: Yes, Moses was not baptised and he is saved.
So was the thief on the cross
 

MennoSota

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This remains your answer after you posted a study of the passage stating otherwise, as well as the commentaries I posted. If theologians can't convince you, I don't think I'm going to be able to.
You avoid looking at the text yourself and rely on others to interpret God's word. You can find a bunch of people to feed a prooftext.
Will you answer my question on your own or just link to someone else?
 

MoreCoffee

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You avoid looking at the text yourself and rely on others to interpret God's word. You can find a bunch of people to feed a prooftext.
Will you answer my question on your own or just link to someone else?

What is so precious about typing his own answer if it is going to be the same as an answer that he's seen online with which he agrees? I don't see the special virtue of typing the answer that you've learned elsewhere. Your answers are things that you've learned and that being so they are no more original (with you) than a cut & paste or a link is.
 

Lamb

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We have all been influenced by someone else "teaching" us. I highly doubt that anyone here on this site has grown up reading the bible without another individual giving an explanation to him/her. When someone disagrees it's easy to lash out and say it's because they were taught incorrectly. How about instead just point out the error without digging into the person?

Does scripture tell us whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized? Most of us have just been taught that he wasn't but I haven't seen proof.
 

psalms 91

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Doesnt say that he was taken off the cross and baptized when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day
 

MoreCoffee

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We have all been influenced by someone else "teaching" us. I highly doubt that anyone here on this site has grown up reading the bible without another individual giving an explanation to him/her. When someone disagrees it's easy to lash out and say it's because they were taught incorrectly. How about instead just point out the error without digging into the person?

Does scripture tell us whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized? Most of us have just been taught that he wasn't but I haven't seen proof.

That is why I pointed to Moses as an example of a man who is saved and not baptised as a Christian. It was a safe example :)
 

MoreCoffee

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Doesnt say that he was taken off the cross and baptized when Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise that day

He may have been baptised by Jesus' disciples before he was arrested and crucified. That is a possibility isn't it?
 

psalms 91

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He may have been baptised by Jesus' disciples before he was arrested and crucified. That is a possibility isn't it?
Yes, providing we accept that he was baptized and a thief
 

Imalive

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Lol baptize the dead to keep your theology up.
He literally died w Christ.
 

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Yes, providing we accept that he was baptized and a thief

It's possible that he was baptised after his theft. Many who went to John for John's baptism were despised by the scribes and Pharisees because they were of low classes that were associated with crimes.
 

MennoSota

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What is so precious about typing his own answer if it is going to be the same as an answer that he's seen online with which he agrees? I don't see the special virtue of typing the answer that you've learned elsewhere. Your answers are things that you've learned and that being so they are no more original (with you) than a cut & paste or a link is.
Articulating your thoughts, and pointing to the scripture that gives rise to those thoughts is a good exercise. Try it sometime.
 

MoreCoffee

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Articulating your thoughts, and pointing to the scripture that gives rise to those thoughts is a good exercise.

I know. Nearly all of my posts are exercises in the discipline. Especially the ones that reflect Catholic teaching.
 

MennoSota

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We have all been influenced by someone else "teaching" us. I highly doubt that anyone here on this site has grown up reading the bible without another individual giving an explanation to him/her. When someone disagrees it's easy to lash out and say it's because they were taught incorrectly. How about instead just point out the error without digging into the person?

Does scripture tell us whether or not the thief on the cross was baptized? Most of us have just been taught that he wasn't but I haven't seen proof.

Yes, we have cultural bias in our reading. To overcome that bias we should attempt inductive study rather than lean on others opinions.
Arguing from silence is not a valid argument. We can observe and study the text to see what it is saying. Only after we have worked through the passage should we consult others to see if we may have missed something.
The greek word for baptism is not always referring to the use of water. It means to immerse or dip into. What that substance is can be anything. In some cases that immersion is spiritual, into the life of Christ. In other cases it is physically into water. The context does not indicate that the immersion into water results in a mystical union with God. The immersion in water results in a community being shown a tangible declaration that God has adopted and made the person alive in Christ, not by virtue of baptism, but solely by God's choice to graciously make a dead person come to life (regeneration).
Arguments for baptismal regeneration are examples of really poor hermaneutics and purposeful ignorance of other passages in the Bible while clinging to small sentence prooftexts...not kept in their original context.
Continued efforts to manipulate God and His word, just to create a false narrative taught by your church, is very disappointing to say the least.
 

Lamb

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Yes, we have cultural bias in our reading. To overcome that bias we should attempt inductive study rather than lean on others opinions.
Arguing from silence is not a valid argument. We can observe and study the text to see what it is saying. Only after we have worked through the passage should we consult others to see if we may have missed something.
The greek word for baptism is not always referring to the use of water. It means to immerse or dip into. What that substance is can be anything. In some cases that immersion is spiritual, into the life of Christ. In other cases it is physically into water. The context does not indicate that the immersion into water results in a mystical union with God. The immersion in water results in a community being shown a tangible declaration that God has adopted and made the person alive in Christ, not by virtue of baptism, but solely by God's choice to graciously make a dead person come to life (regeneration).
Arguments for baptismal regeneration are examples of really poor hermaneutics and purposeful ignorance of other passages in the Bible while clinging to small sentence prooftexts...not kept in their original context.
Continued efforts to manipulate God and His word, just to create a false narrative taught by your church, is very disappointing to say the least.

Continuing to believe in two baptisms when scriptures state that there is one baptism is a dangerous theology.
 

Albion

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The greek word for baptism is not always referring to the use of water. It means to immerse or dip into. What that substance is can be anything. In some cases that immersion is spiritual, into the life of Christ.
No, you're talking there about an analogy as with such other terms as "Baptism of Desire," Baptism of Blood," and "Buried with him...." But when the Bible speaks of and describes Baptism, it is referring to water. Jesus had himself baptized in the River Jordan; in another place a candidate for Baptism says that "there is much water here" when asking why there should not be a Baptism; and of course there is the well-known "water and the Spirit" statement from Christ himself.
 

MennoSota

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I know. Nearly all of my posts are exercises in the discipline. Especially the ones that reflect Catholic teaching.
What you think you are doing and what you are doing seems to be in conflict...
 

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Continuing to believe in two baptisms when scriptures state that there is one baptism is a dangerous theology.
Continuing to make water a source of regeneration is an heretical and blasphemous theology.

If you wish the word baptism to only be applied to water, then your wish will never come true. The writers never do that with the word. There lies your problem.
 

MennoSota

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No, you're talking there about an analogy as with such other terms as "Baptism of Desire," Baptism of Blood," and "Buried with him...." But when the Bible speaks of and describes Baptism, it is referring to water. Jesus had himself baptized in the River Jordan; in another place a candidate for Baptism says that "there is much water here" when asking why there should not be a Baptism; and of course there is the well-known "water and the Spirit" statement from Christ himself.
No.
Water is not the only thing the word baptizo is referring to in scripture. You make a false assertion and then force your assertion upon the text. That is poor hermaneutics on your part.
 
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