The Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ

MoreCoffee

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Such a big empty hall!

We need something to fill it a little ...

How about a little about the Faith ... taken from James Cardinal Gibbon's The Faith of our Fathers.

The Blessed Trinity, The Incarnation, Etc.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is but one God, who is infinite in knowledge, in power, in goodness, and in every other perfection; who created all things by His omnipotence, and governs them by His Providence.

In this one God there are three distinct Persons,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who are perfectly equal to each other.

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is perfect God and perfect Man. He is God, for He "is over all things, God blessed forever." [Rom. ix. 5.] "He is God of the substance of the Father, begotten before time; and He is Man of the substance of His Mother, born in time." [Athanasian Creed] Out of love for us, and in order to rescue us from the miseries entailed upon us by the disobedience of our first parents, the Divine Word descended from heaven, and became Man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, by the operation of the Holy Ghost. He was born on Christmas day, in a stable at Bethlehem.

After having led a life of obscurity for about thirty years, chiefly at Nazareth, He commenced His public career. He associated with Him a number of men who are named Apostles, whom He instructed in the doctrines of the religion which He established.

For three years He went about doing good, giving sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, healing all kinds of diseases, raising the dead to life, and preaching throughout Judea the new Gospel of peace. [Matt. xi.]

On Good Friday He was crucified on Mount Calvary, and thus purchased for us redemption by His death. Hence Jesus exclusively bears the titles of Saviour and Redeemer, because "there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved." [Acts iv. 12.] "He was wounded for our iniquities; He was bruised for our sins, ... and by His bruises we are healed." [Isaiah iiii. 5.]

We are commanded by Jesus, suffering and dying for us, to imitate Him by the crucifixion of our flesh, and by acts of daily mortification. "If anyone," He says, "will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me." [Luke ix. 23.]

Hence we abstain from the use of flesh meat on Friday--the day consecrated to our Saviour's sufferings--not because the eating of flesh meat is sinful in itself, but as an act of salutary mortification. Loving children would be prompted by filial tenderness to commemorate the anniversary of their father's death rather by prayer and fasting than be feasting. Even so we abstain on Fridays from flesh meat that we may in a small measure testify our practical sympathy for our dear Lord by the mortification of our body, endeavouring, like St. Paul, "to bear about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies." [II. Cor. iv. 10.]

The Cross is held in the highest reverence by Catholics, because it was the instrument of our Saviour's crucifixion. It surmounts our churches and adorns our sanctuaries. We venerate it as the emblem of our salvation. "Far be it from me," says the Apostle, "to glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." [Gal. vi. 14.] We do not, of course, attach any intrinsic virtue to the Cross; this would be sinful and idolatrous. Our veneration is referred to Him who died upon it.

It is also a very ancient and pious practice for the faithful to make on their person the sign of the Cross, saying at the same time: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Tertullian, who lived in the second century of the Christian era, says: "In all our actions, when we come in or go out, when we dress, when we wash, at our meals, before retiring to sleep, ... we form on our foreheads the sign of the cross. These practices are not commanded by a formal law of Scripture; but tradition teaches them, custom confirms them, faith observes them." [De Corona, C. iii.] By the sign of the cross we make a profession of our faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation, and perform a most salutary act of religion.
We believe that on Easter Sunday Jesus Christ manifested His divine power by raising Himself to life, and that having spent forty days on earth, after His resurrection, instructing His disciples, He ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives.

On the Feast of Pentecost, or Whitsunday, ten days after His Ascension, our Saviour sent, as He had promised, His Holy Spirit to His disciples, while they were assembled together in prayer. The Holy Ghost purified their hearts from sin, and imparted to them a full knowledge of those doctrines of salvation which they were instructed to preach. On the same Feast of Pentecost the Apostles commenced their sublime mission, from which day, accordingly, we date the active life of the Catholic Church.

Our Redeemer gave the most ample authority to the Apostles to teach in His name; commanding them to "preach the Gospel to every creature." [Mark xvi. 15.] and directing all, under the most severe penalties, to hear and obey them: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me. And he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me." [Luke x. 16.]

And lest we should be mistaken in distinguishing between the true Church and false sects, which our Lord predicted would arise, He was pleased to stamp upon His Church certain shining marks, by which every sincere inquirer could easily recognize her as His only Spouse. The principal marks or characteristics of the true Church are, her Unity, Sanctity, Catholicity, and Apostolicity, [Symb. Constantinop.] to which may be added the Infallibility of her teaching and the Perpetuity of her existence.

I shall treat successively of these marks.
 
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Josiah

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I think that.... as time passed..... Christians asked questions (there's been a LONG history of Christians "over thinking" as my Greek Orthodox friend constantly points out). Sometimes, this becomes difficult, divisive debate - - on important things. Two of the early ones involve these two issues: The Trinity and the Two Natures of Christ.

While I think some language got used that maybe go too far, BASICALLY, what those early Christians did was embrace what the words of Scripture state - tensions and all - and proclaim the mystery: God is three yet one. Jesus is fully, always God and fully, always man. There is humility in this.... wisdom in this..... let the words STAND, regardless of what questions may remain unanswered, regardless of how this may not "jibe" with OUR current, limited, fallen sense of "logic" and our pathetic current sense of reality.

My "problem" comes with theories that ignore what God said, subject all to the "brain" of SELF - including God - and dogmatize things that SELF theorizes according to the ego, brain, "logic" and "understanding" of self (self here meaning any individual, church, denomination, sect, cult). Seems to me, that began to happen a lot as the middle ages approached and reigned. Again, in the words of my Greek Orthodox friend, "In sinful pride, man just couldn't shut up - and could not leave well enough alone but kept messing things up".




- Josiah
 

BruceLeiter

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Such a big empty hall!

We need something to fill it a little ...

How about a little about the Faith ... taken from James Cardinal Gibbon's The Faith of our Fathers.
Let's face it. Our reasoning cannot fully grasp the huge, divine nature of the 3-in-1 Creator-God of the universe. The Truths of the Trinity and Jesus' full deity and humanity are indeed mysteries to our puny minds. They are taught clearly in the Bible; therefore, I believe them.
 

BruceLeiter

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Such a big empty hall!

We need something to fill it a little ...

How about a little about the Faith ... taken from James Cardinal Gibbon's The Faith of our Fathers.
Protestants who follow the Bible and Roman Catholics agree on the Trinity and Jesus' two natures.
 

MoreCoffee

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Protestants who follow the Bible and Roman Catholics agree on the Trinity and Jesus' two natures.
Amen Catholic with the protestants who retained so much of Catholic teaching both alike accept and confess the Creed called Nicene and in which the most Blessed Trinity is affirmed.
 

BruceLeiter

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Amen Catholic with the protestants who retained so much of Catholic teaching both alike accept and confess the Creed called Nicene and in which the most Blessed Trinity is affirmed.
True, but Protestants went to the Bible alone as the source of their beliefs, not to an additional, separate tradition, unlike the Catholics.
 

BruceLeiter

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Amen Catholic with the protestants who retained so much of Catholic teaching both alike accept and confess the Creed called Nicene and in which the most Blessed Trinity is affirmed.
Those fundamental doctrines are not drawn from the creeds, but from the Bible. The best creeds are based on the Bible too, not the other way around. The doctrine of the Trinity is based on the Gospel of John and Deuteronomy, for example. The Bible is the source for all of Protestants' beliefs, though some have wandered away from it, sadly.
 

MoreCoffee

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Those fundamental doctrines are not drawn from the creeds, but from the Bible.
Exploring the apologetics of ancient Arians and modern Jehovah's Witnesses may surprise you with their "biblical" nature, demonstrating how selectively interpreting Bible passages (primarily in English) can result in Arian theology. Although the Creeds did not originate the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, it is nevertheless possible for the Bible alone to guide various readers to divergent conclusions regarding the fundamental elements of the Dogma of the Trinity and the Dogma of the Incarnation.
The best creeds are based on the Bible too, not the other way around. The doctrine of the Trinity is based on the Gospel of John and Deuteronomy, for example.
All creeds are based on the Bible, drawing from the holy scriptures to form their doctrines. The bishops at the councils that formulated the creeds depended not only on the scriptures but also on teachings passed down through the Church from the apostles, who in turn received them directly from Jesus Christ and through revelations imparted by the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is the source for all of Protestants' beliefs, though some have wandered away from it, sadly.
I belong to the Catholic Church because it is guided by the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and the testimony of the Holy Spirit. I am part of the Catholic Church as it teaches me how to conduct myself in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Embrace this, and you will always hold the Church in high regard.
 

MoreCoffee

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True, but Protestants went to the Bible alone as the source of their beliefs, not to an additional, separate tradition, unlike the Catholics.
Protestants depend on the traditions passed down to them to determine which books to include in or exclude from their Bible. They use logic and human reasoning to formulate their doctrines. It is mistaken to believe that Protestants base their beliefs solely on the Bible; in reality, they also depend on traditions, historical context, and their own reasoning to establish their doctrines.
 

BruceLeiter

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Such a big empty hall!

We need something to fill it a little ...

How about a little about the Faith ... taken from James Cardinal Gibbon's The Faith of our Fathers.
Your first post had me agreeing until the last paragraph, when it asserts "the infallibility of its teaching." I know that Catholics believe that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he speaks infallibly. Does that idea include all the additional doctrines about purgatory and Mary? If so, how can that be, since those beliefs aren't found in the Bible?
 

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Your first post had me agreeing until the last paragraph, when it asserts "the infallibility of its teaching." I know that Catholics believe that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he speaks infallibly. Does that idea include all the additional doctrines about purgatory and Mary? If so, how can that be, since those beliefs aren't found in the Bible?
Get a Catechism, it is free online and check for yourself.
 

BruceLeiter

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Get a Catechism, it is free online and check for yourself.
I thought that maybe you could give me the short version. However, I don't have time to study Catholicism in depth, since I have several ministries to attend to.
 

MoreCoffee

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I thought that maybe you could give me the short version. However, I don't have time to study Catholicism in depth, since I have several ministries to attend to.
Take your time, there is no rush.
 

Lanman87

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It is mistaken to believe that Protestants base their beliefs solely on the Bible; in reality, they also depend on traditions, historical context, and their own reasoning to establish their doctrines.
As an American Evangelical I agree. We are all fallible and are influenced to some degree or another by our personal biases, cultural norms, previous teachings, influential people, personal experiences, and our own reasoning.

The thing is, that is true of all human beings. It is true of the Early Church fathers, it is true of monks and theologians in the middle ages, it is true of every Bishop, Priest and Pope of the Catholic Church, it is true of Martin Luther and John Calvin, it is true of John and Charles Wesley, it is true of Billy Graham and R.C. Sproul.

The entire premise behind Sola Scriptura is that God's Word is inerrant while we are fallible. Because we are human, we have different understandings and opinions of what Scripture means. But it is not the fault of Scripture, it is our fault.

The Good News is our eternal life is not dependent of doing everything exactly right or having correct understanding of doctrine. It is dependent on a supernatural encounter with Christ via the working of the Holy Spirit which draws us to faith and repentance, indwells us, adopts us, changes us, and guides us to seek His Kingdom and His Righteousness.

That is why I reject the Catholic understanding of "church". The church (called out people of God) is everyone who has had a supernatural encounter with Christ via the Holy Spirit. The church assembles under various names, in various places, uses various liturgies, and has different understandings (because we are fallible humans). But all who are "In Christ" are united by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
 

BruceLeiter

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As an American Evangelical I agree. We are all fallible and are influenced to some degree or another by our personal biases, cultural norms, previous teachings, influential people, personal experiences, and our own reasoning.

The thing is, that is true of all human beings. It is true of the Early Church fathers, it is true of monks and theologians in the middle ages, it is true of every Bishop, Priest and Pope of the Catholic Church, it is true of Martin Luther and John Calvin, it is true of John and Charles Wesley, it is true of Billy Graham and R.C. Sproul.

The entire premise behind Sola Scriptura is that God's Word is inerrant while we are fallible. Because we are human, we have different understandings and opinions of what Scripture means. But it is not the fault of Scripture, it is our fault.

The Good News is our eternal life is not dependent of doing everything exactly right or having correct understanding of doctrine. It is dependent on a supernatural encounter with Christ via the working of the Holy Spirit which draws us to faith and repentance, indwells us, adopts us, changes us, and guides us to seek His Kingdom and His Righteousness.

That is why I reject the Catholic understanding of "church". The church (called out people of God) is everyone who has had a supernatural encounter with Christ via the Holy Spirit. The church assembles under various names, in various places, uses various liturgies, and has different understandings (because we are fallible humans). But all who are "In Christ" are united by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I agree with you, Lanman87! As near as we agree with the assumptions, history, and teachings from the Bible from its own viewpoint, we approach the Bible as nearly as possible in our interpretations. As a result, all of the Protestant and Catholic groups that use that principle about biblical truth agree on the essential doctrines: the Trinity, the divine and human natures of Jesus, his atonement for sins, his bodily resurrection, God's creation of the universe, and his inspiration of the Bible.
 

MoreCoffee

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The entire premise behind Sola Scriptura is that God's Word is inerrant while we are fallible. Because we are human, we have different understandings and opinions of what Scripture means. But it is not the fault of Scripture, it is our fault.
If, as you've indicated, no one is free of biases and errors then why pretend that the scriptures really have an objectively true message when no one knows what it is? That sounds like someone saying that the random noises of the seas have an objective message to communicate but it is human folly that stops us from receiving its wise words. Of course, such a claim is a nonsense.
The Good News is our eternal life is not dependent of doing everything exactly right or having correct understanding of doctrine. It is dependent on a supernatural encounter with Christ via the working of the Holy Spirit which draws us to faith and repentance, indwells us, adopts us, changes us, and guides us to seek His Kingdom and His Righteousness.

That is why I reject the Catholic understanding of "church". The church (called out people of God) is everyone who has had a supernatural encounter with Christ via the Holy Spirit. The church assembles under various names, in various places, uses various liturgies, and has different understandings (because we are fallible humans). But all who are "In Christ" are united by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I don't see any connection between what is above and Catholic ecclesiology.
 

Lanman87

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If, as you've indicated, no one is free of biases and errors then why pretend that the scriptures really have an objectively true message when no one knows what it is?
I didn't say nobody knows what it is. I said nobody is perfect.

Even Paul said we see dimly right now

2 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Cor 13:12

Paul also told us God's ways in inscrutable

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! Romans 11:33

I think it is very arrogant for anyone to claim to infallibly know and understand every thing contained in the Scriptures.

Throughout the centuries the people of God have come to consensus about many things. But also have disagreed about many things.

I don't see any connection between what is above and Catholic ecclesiology.

Because Catholicism teaches salvation ultimately comes through faith in Christ, the sacraments received as administered by the Catholic church, and works of charity. In other words, by being a believing Catholic who lives a "sacramental life".
 

BruceLeiter

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Amen Catholic with the protestants who retained so much of Catholic teaching both alike accept and confess the Creed called Nicene and in which the most Blessed Trinity is affirmed.
And it's the Athanasian Creed that makes the Trinity, including his oneness in three Persons, even clearer.
 

BruceLeiter

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Exploring the apologetics of ancient Arians and modern Jehovah's Witnesses may surprise you with their "biblical" nature, demonstrating how selectively interpreting Bible passages (primarily in English) can result in Arian theology. Although the Creeds did not originate the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, it is nevertheless possible for the Bible alone to guide various readers to divergent conclusions regarding the fundamental elements of the Dogma of the Trinity and the Dogma of the Incarnation.

All creeds are based on the Bible, drawing from the holy scriptures to form their doctrines. The bishops at the councils that formulated the creeds depended not only on the scriptures but also on teachings passed down through the Church from the apostles, who in turn received them directly from Jesus Christ and through revelations imparted by the Holy Spirit.

I belong to the Catholic Church because it is guided by the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and the testimony of the Holy Spirit. I am part of the Catholic Church as it teaches me how to conduct myself in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Embrace this, and you will always hold the Church in high regard.
How much do you admit that the Popes have added a tradition that is beyond the teachings of the Bible like the doctrines about Mary's immaculate conception, the need to pray to her, and purgatory, that aren't taught in Scripture? Such doctrines will keep Protestants away and perhaps their absence would keep Catholics away from Protestant churches. Why do the Catholics make the Pope so important that he is almost able to add to the Bible with unbiblical doctrines?
 

MoreCoffee

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How much do you admit that the Popes have added a tradition that is beyond the teachings of the Bible like the doctrines about Mary's immaculate conception, the need to pray to her, and purgatory, that aren't taught in Scripture? Such doctrines will keep Protestants away and perhaps their absence would keep Catholics away from Protestant churches. Why do the Catholics make the Pope so important that he is almost able to add to the Bible with unbiblical doctrines?
Meh!

Do some research rather than spitting out the same old old anti-Catholic tropes
 
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