The false premise of Universalism

[hobie]

There are those who question why God doesn't save everyone, and change them so they all find their way to heaven.

The wrong premise that comes with Universalism, is that the wicked will die is not true because it would then be a limitation in God, it holds that if all are not saved, it limits God and His ability to heal all sin. It really is failure on their part to realize that God doesn't make us robots, or create our character. God can create sinless beings, but the character must be developed by the freewill choices of the person. While God does possess the power to overwrite the individuality of a person and instill His perfection without their consent, to do so would destroy that person and create a basically a automaton, where that person used to be. This action would violate God’s own character of love, which never compels, never coerces, and never forces. Love only exists in an atmosphere of freedom. So the Universalist idea, that God’s love will one day be so compelling that all will be overwhelmed and become godly, actually presents a God who is not love, but rather a dictator who forces everyone to be like Him. Genuine love, as painful as it is, allows the rejection of love.

Some say that forgiveness solves the sin problem, and so that allows everyone in. If sin is the breaking of rules and requires punishment, but Jesus paid the punishment, then wouldn’t God forgive everyone? And if God forgives everyone, won’t all be saved?

The argument is that there is no limit to God’s forgiveness; therefore, all are forgiven and so all will be saved. While it is true that God’s forgiveness is limitless and that He forgives everyone, forgiveness does not equal salvation. For Universalists, if a person is pardoned, he or she is freed from the punishment of the law and since God forgives everyone, then everyone must be saved. But the reality we find is that while you can forgive a person for overdosing on drugs, the forgiveness doesn’t prevent the damage done and the user still dies.

Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, but the evidence shows that many were not changed by that forgiveness. They remained selfish, and full of iniquity and within their hearts still hated truth and love. Thus, if God would take them to heaven anyway, it would be a place of torture to them, as they by their choices, have rejected love and truth and developed selfish characters that will not find God’s unveiled infinite love and truth enjoyable, they rather flee from God, begging to have the mountains crush them to hide them from Him.

 

[Albion]

Many people misunderstand Universalism and suppose that it means either that God will make everyone righteous in this life or else overlook the fact that they aren't. Universalists generally do not take either of those approaches.

Instead, they believe that in the afterlife those who are not saved will go through some sort of hell because of their sinfulness, but will ultimately--perhaps after a long time--become ready for heaven. They will not simply be heaven-bound at the same time and in the same way as those souls whose sins were forgiven while in this Earthly life.

 

[Josiah]

Universalism (a concept invented by radical Calvinists) is simply that faith is irrelevant, faith is deleted as a factor in justification. Realizing that "limited atonement" is wrong, they rightly returned to the biblical position that Christ died for all and that God wills all to be saved, but because of their "starting point" of the Soverignty of God, made a leap that ERGO all are saved. As if John 3:16 says, "For God so loved all that He gave His only begotten son so that no one will parish but have everlasting life whether they believe or not."


What we have includes MYSTERY. Yes, God loves all. Yes, God wills all to be saved. Yes, Christ died for all and is the Savior of all. Yes, those with life/Holy Spirit/Faith have such because God gave it to them - and not all have that, thus not all are saved. Why some and not others? The Bible never says. But here's the problem: Some are so egotistical that they can't shut up, they won't accept that God may know more than they do, they are sure God just isn't as smart as they are, they are so proud they appoint self to correct God and explain things to God and tell God what He SHOULD have told us in Scripture but foolishly failed to do so. John Wesley said, "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent." Ah, egotistical, fallen man has a lot of problem with the second part of that. In the words of my doctrine teacher: "Few heresies have resulted from people saying too little, nearly all have resulted from people saying too much" telling God that He's wrong about what He said and then telling God what He should have said. The Bible commands us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God" Nowhere are we told to correct God, to impose our theories on God, to make God as smart as self. The result is that sometimes we'll have questions we can't answer, we'll have realities we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around. But Truth is not a human invention, it's a divine revelation.

 

[Andrew]

Universalism (a concept invented by radical Calvinists) is simply that faith is irrelevant, faith is deleted as a factor in justification. Realizing that "limited atonement" is wrong, they rightly returned to the biblical position that Christ died for all and that God wills all to be saved, but because of their "starting point" of the Soverignty of God, made a leap that ERGO all are saved. As if John 3:16 says, "For God so loved all that He gave His only begotten son so that no one will parish but have everlasting life whether they believe or not."


What we have includes MYSTERY. Yes, God loves all. Yes, God wills all to be saved. Yes, Christ died for all and is the Savior of all. Yes, those with life/Holy Spirit/Faith have such because God gave it to them - and not all have that, thus not all are saved. Why some and not others? The Bible never says. But here's the problem: Some are so egotistical that they can't shut up, they won't accept that God may know more than they do, they are sure God just isn't as smart as they are, they are so proud they appoint self to correct God and explain things to God and tell God what He SHOULD have told us in Scripture but foolishly failed to do so. John Wesley said, "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent." Ah, egotistical, fallen man has a lot of problem with the second part of that. In the words of my doctrine teacher: "Few heresies have resulted from people saying too little, nearly all have resulted from people saying too much" telling God that He's wrong about what He said and then telling God what He should have said. The Bible commands us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God" Nowhere are we told to correct God, to impose our theories on God, to make God as smart as self. The result is that sometimes we'll have questions we can't answer, we'll have realities we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around. But Truth is not a human invention, it's a divine revelation.

I don't understand how you can say the things you say but still insist that it's God who gives us faith and not ourselves..
Why doesn't God give faith to everyone?
The word clearly proposes to us believers that God has mercy and compassion on whom he wills it, He is Sovereign and knows and sees all things and has complete control over who He wants to save and others to glorify for His wellness unto believers (like Pharaoh who's heart God hardened).. Revelation says that the majority are lost and Jesus also says that no one comes to Him but by His Fathers will, only sheep will hear and follow, there is no gamble so why do we assume that anyone person is possible to be saved? Aren't we suppose to preach scripture not expecting everyone to come? Did not Paul say that ALL of Asia had turned away from his teachings??

 

[Josiah]

What we have includes MYSTERY. Yes, God loves all. Yes, God wills all to be saved. Yes, Christ died for all and is the Savior of all. Yes, those with life/Holy Spirit/Faith have such because God gave it to them - and not all have that, thus not all are saved. Why some and not others? The Bible never says. But here's the problem: Some are so egotistical that they can't shut up, they won't accept that God may know more than they do, they are sure God just isn't as smart as they are, they are so proud they appoint self to correct God and explain things to God and tell God what He SHOULD have told us in Scripture but foolishly failed to do so. John Wesley said, "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent." Ah, egotistical, fallen man has a lot of problem with the second part of that. In the words of my doctrine teacher: "Few heresies have resulted from people saying too little, nearly all have resulted from people saying too much" telling God that He's wrong about what He said and then telling God what He should have said. The Bible commands us to be "Stewards of the mysteries of God" Nowhere are we told to correct God, to impose our theories on God, to make God as smart as self. The result is that sometimes we'll have questions we can't answer, we'll have realities we can't wrap our puny, fallen brains around. But Truth is not a human invention, it's a divine revelation.

Why doesn't God give faith to everyone?

Valid question. One the Bible doesn't answer, one God choose to not answer. I lack the ego to tell God the answer, and mandate He agree with ME.

Why aren't there human beings on Venus? Why is the universe so big? Why did God choose the Hebrews rather than the Egyptians?

Aren't we suppose to preach scripture not expecting everyone to come? Did not Paul say that ALL of Asia had turned away from his teachings??

Yup. God flat out, verbatim says He wills all to be saved. And not all are saved. Why? The Bible never says. I'm okay leaving this exactly where God did, I'm okay letting God has the "last word." I'm okay admitting God probably knows more about this than I do and that it's likely good for me to accept what God says rather than demand God accepts what I say.

 

[Andrew]

Valid question. One the Bible doesn't answer, one God choose to not answer. I lack the ego to tell God the answer, and mandate He agree with ME.

Why aren't there human beings on Venus? Why is the universe so big? Why did God choose the Hebrews rather than the Egyptians?






Yup. God flat out, verbatim says He wills all to be saved. And not all are saved. Why? The Bible never says. I'm okay leaving this exactly where God did, I'm okay letting God has the "last word." I'm okay admitting God probably knows more about this than I do and that it's likely good for me to accept what God says rather than demand God accepts what I say.

Good response and I agree, God is completely sovereign and still very mysterious and no matter our different opinions we just can't box God into a.. box..
I believe we are on the same side of the coin we just express it differently

 

[FredVB]

Many people misunderstand Universalism and suppose that it means either that God will make everyone righteous in this life or else overlook the fact that they aren't. Universalists generally do not take either of those approaches.
Instead, they believe that in the afterlife those who are not saved will go through some sort of hell because of their sinfulness, but will ultimately--perhaps after a long time--become ready for heaven. They will not simply be heaven-bound at the same time and in the same way as those souls whose sins were forgiven while in this Earthly life.

Belief in purgatory does not have biblical basis. What is believed about purgatory by many is not really distinct from such belief that hell that people go to will have them made ready to go to heaven in any amount of time there. But Jesus Christ said that the way to life is narrow and the way to destruction is broad. That does not leave a way for being prepared to go to heaven with going to hell.

Universalism (a concept invented by radical Calvinists) is simply that faith is irrelevant, faith is deleted as a factor in justification. Realizing that "limited atonement" is wrong, they rightly returned to the biblical position that Christ died for all and that God wills all to be saved, but because of their "starting point" of the Soverignty of God, made a leap that ERGO all are saved. As if John 3:16 says, "For God so loved all that He gave His only begotten son so that no one will parish but have everlasting life whether they believe or not."

That does not sound like anything I ever heard from any who would say they are Calvinist.

God flat out, verbatim says He wills all to be saved.

Where does God say that, what Bible passage? In 2 Peter 3 it is said that God is not willing that any would perish, but that all come to repentance. All people do not all come to repentance. It is because it is up to them to respond to God. In Romans 1 it is said that any can know of God. God reveals more to those who respond to what they do see of God already. But so many don't, though we who are believers are to do our part to show such yet more of the truth, that they would respond rightly to God.

 

[Josiah]

God flat out, verbatim says He wills all to be saved.


.

Where does God say that, what Bible passage?

Read 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9.



Universalism was invented by radical, later-day Calvinists. It is rooted in their rejection of the role of faith in justification and insistence that ALL that matters is whether God wills it and Christ died for them. These radical latter-day Calvinists believed that God wills most to fry forever in hell (He being glorified by that) and that Christ died for only a few (both teachings of latter-day uber-Calvinists) but some realized these teachings are clearly unbiblical (indeed, flat out verbatim contradicting Scripture) and so taught the since God wills all to be saved and Christ died for all, thus all are saved. Their error? They failed to also repudiate the elimination of faith from justification. YES God wills all to be saved, that's EXACTLY what the Bible clearly and undeniably states. YES, Jesus died for all (that's exactly what the Bible says) but only those with faith that trusts/relies/claims Christ are saved. Since not all have faith, not all are saved. Thus, universalism is wrong.

 

[Albion]

Belief in purgatory does not have biblical basis.

If you feel the need to make that point, sure.

I was explaining how most Universalists view the matter, not what the rest of us believe. And the Universalists' belief, as was explained, doesn't involve Purgatory anyway.