The Coming Civil War Over Abortion

[tango]

Her unborn child is not her body...

That person is IN her body...

Killing that person is disastrous for the well being its mother...


Arsenios

Exactly.

 

[Lamb]

 

[Arsenios]

Her unborn child is not her body...

That person is IN her body...

Killing that person is disastrous for the well being its mother...


Arsenios

I should have added that such a killing is a nightmare for the child...

The entire loving universe that the mother is for that child becomes sinister and murderous...

As the child fights to retain its life...

Fetal child survivors have amnesia for such an event...

Yet its memory is emblazoned in their very being...

Without words or images in darkness and fear and pain...

Death is the last enemy to be overcome...

At the Second Coming...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I just love the way this guy preaches to Pro Choicers and in most cases converts them to Pro Life.
He asks them simple questions that usually leaves them stumped, great points to use if you are ever caught up in a debate with a pro choicer....
It's a full movie but it's basically an Australian street preacher talking with kids who are pro choice, there are only 2 who walk away unconvinced
https://youtu.be/mB1vV2EgS5A

 

[tango]

It would be good to see a transcript of the key points rather than sitting through an entire movie.

 

[Andrew]

It would be good to see a transcript of the key points rather than sitting through an entire movie.

here ya go
https://www.livingwaters.com/movie/7-reasons/?

 

[Andrew]

I can't get my browser to work so I'm not sure if the link even works, you can find it in the videos description along with the 7 points.
The 7 points are the seven reasons pro choicers support abortion and seven times he refutes them

 

[tango]

I can't get my browser to work so I'm not sure if the link even works, you can find it in the videos description along with the 7 points.
The 7 points are the seven reasons pro choicers support abortion and seven times he refutes them

The link lists seven reasons but doesn't give any description of the refutation of the seven points.

Some of the points are easily addressed with "don't have sex then" - even though it's a very simplistic approach it's well known that abstinence is a 100% effective method of birth control, although it doesn't address the situation if someone is raped. It would be interesting to see a summary of the refutations of the other points, although I can probably imagine much of what might be said it would be interesting to see his counter points.

The issue of a disabled/deformed baby could be an interesting one. I can easily see that one turning into a question of just when it is acceptable to kill someone who is disabled. If it's OK to abort a fetus because it is disabled it does raise the question of why it isn't OK to euthanise a living person who is disabled.

Likewise the issue of "I don't want to be a parent" raises thorny issues - if you're allowed to kill a fetus because you don't want to be a parent one has to ask whether, if your child gets to be a bratty three-year-old and you decide you don't want to be a parent any more, you are allowed to just kill your child and move on.

 

[Andrew]

The link lists seven reasons but doesn't give any description of the refutation of the seven points.

Some of the points are easily addressed with "don't have sex then" - even though it's a very simplistic approach it's well known that abstinence is a 100% effective method of birth control, although it doesn't address the situation if someone is raped. It would be interesting to see a summary of the refutations of the other points, although I can probably imagine much of what might be said it would be interesting to see his counter points.

The issue of a disabled/deformed baby could be an interesting one. I can easily see that one turning into a question of just when it is acceptable to kill someone who is disabled. If it's OK to abort a fetus because it is disabled it does raise the question of why it isn't OK to euthanise a living person who is disabled.

Likewise the issue of "I don't want to be a parent" raises thorny issues - if you're allowed to kill a fetus because you don't want to be a parent one has to ask whether, if your child gets to be a bratty three-year-old and you decide you don't want to be a parent any more, you are allowed to just kill your child and move on.

The video is great, something to think about watching in the future when you have time.
The issue of rape is interesting, the preacher uses something along the lines "why should the baby be punished and killed for a crime someone else committed?", and then he offers the justification in which you should have the baby and give it up for adoption, the girl says "do you know about the hassle of the adoption process?" in which he replies "yes I know that there is a wait and eagerness for many families wishing to adopt children"... he is rather more convincing then what I am typing out, I'm just trying to give you a little bit of an understanding anyway.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, but the discussion assumes what it is trying to prove, that abortion is immoral. You can always provide alternatives to any course of action someone is considering, whether abortion or anything else. But that doesn't mean the law should compel people to adopt those alternatives.

 

[Andrew]

Yes, but the discussion assumes what it is trying to prove, that abortion is immoral. You can always provide alternatives to any course of action someone is considering, whether abortion or anything else. But that doesn't mean the law should compel people to adopt those alternatives.

Yep. He asks questions that convict their conscious and then they change their mind
One of the questions he asks is... can you finish this sentence for me ? "It's okay to kill a baby when...." ... no one could answer it...

 

[tango]

The video is great, something to think about watching in the future when you have time.
The issue of rape is interesting, the preacher uses something along the lines "why should the baby be punished and killed for a crime someone else committed?", and then he offers the justification in which you should have the baby and give it up for adoption, the girl says "do you know about the hassle of the adoption process?" in which he replies "yes I know that there is a wait and eagerness for many families wishing to adopt children"... he is rather more convincing then what I am typing out, I'm just trying to give you a little bit of an understanding anyway.

I'm familiar with the argument that an innocent baby shouldn't suffer because of the crime of another. That said there always comes a point when the discussion turns into a clash of opinions, with current legal opinions largely being that the fetus doesn't count as a human. It's good to have rational arguments to offer, particularly to people who don't particularly want an abortion but feel like there's no other way out.

As far as rape is concerned it seems like the kind of issue where it's easy to make proclamations as to what the unwitting and unwilling mother-to-be should do, from a safe space of being a man who can never find himself facing such a decision. Even setting aside the financial costs of dealing with a pregnancy and giving birth the physiological changes leading up to the birth, the potential for post-natal depression etc, not to mention to potential for emotional issues following a decision to give up the child for adoption, it provides lots of handy ammunition for those wanting to make a case along the lines of "why should the woman suffer all this on top of the trauma of being raped?"

I find the notion of abortion to be morally unacceptable and yet, if I'm honest, if my wife had ever been raped and ended up pregnant, I don't know how I'd have handled the thought of raising a child knowing that every time it called me "daddy" it would remind me of what had happened. And of course that's coming from a position when it hadn't happened to me directly, and living in a country where you don't get a bill for north of $10,000 just because you went into hospital to give birth.

 

[hedrick]

Yep. He asks questions that convict their conscious and then they change their mind
One of the questions he asks is... can you finish this sentence for me ? "It's okay to kill a baby when...." ... no one could answer it...

He's using intentionally loaded language. I'm actually not in favor of abortion except when it's required medically. (It sometimes is, although that's a small fraction of actual abortions.) But I wouldn't classify a first-trimester abortion as murder, nor call it "killing a baby."

It's not that people never refer to a fetus as a baby. But if you talk about "killing a baby" people envision an actual baby.

My answer to his question would be "when it's not actually a baby."

 

[psalms 91]

He's using intentionally loaded language. I'm actually not in favor of abortion except when it's required medically. (It sometimes is, although that's a small fraction of actual abortions.) But I wouldn't classify a first-trimester abortion as murder, nor call it "killing a baby."

It's not that people never refer to a fetus as a baby. But if you talk about "killing a baby" people envision an actual baby.

My answer to his question would be "when it's not actually a baby."

Life begins at conception so any abortion is murder pure and simple

 

[Andrew]

He's using intentionally loaded language. I'm actually not in favor of abortion except when it's required medically. (It sometimes is, although that's a small fraction of actual abortions.) But I wouldn't classify a first-trimester abortion as murder, nor call it "killing a baby."

It's not that people never refer to a fetus as a baby. But if you talk about "killing a baby" people envision an actual baby.

My answer to his question would be "when it's not actually a baby."

He raises the question "when does it become a baby?" and some answered "when it has a heart beat".. which he responds "it has a heart beat at 3 weeks".

Now when do you call it baby? The late term abortion bill allows the murder of a baby after it is born... this is the insane and inhumane attitude they have towards new life.

He likens it to the Holocaust when the Jews were considered not to be people and so it was ok to kill them.

 

[Andrew]

I'm familiar with the argument that an innocent baby shouldn't suffer because of the crime of another. That said there always comes a point when the discussion turns into a clash of opinions, with current legal opinions largely being that the fetus doesn't count as a human. It's good to have rational arguments to offer, particularly to people who don't particularly want an abortion but feel like there's no other way out.

As far as rape is concerned it seems like the kind of issue where it's easy to make proclamations as to what the unwitting and unwilling mother-to-be should do, from a safe space of being a man who can never find himself facing such a decision. Even setting aside the financial costs of dealing with a pregnancy and giving birth the physiological changes leading up to the birth, the potential for post-natal depression etc, not to mention to potential for emotional issues following a decision to give up the child for adoption, it provides lots of handy ammunition for those wanting to make a case along the lines of "why should the woman suffer all this on top of the trauma of being raped?"

I find the notion of abortion to be morally unacceptable and yet, if I'm honest, if my wife had ever been raped and ended up pregnant, I don't know how I'd have handled the thought of raising a child knowing that every time it called me "daddy" it would remind me of what had happened. And of course that's coming from a position when it hadn't happened to me directly, and living in a country where you don't get a bill for north of $10,000 just because you went into hospital to give birth.

I understand what you mean, I find that a very rare case though, you could give it up for adoption but the medical bills probably averages around the same as the cost to have an abortion

 

[tango]

Life begins at conception so any abortion is murder pure and simple

You can't really just take an opinion and present it as if it were fact, and then derive things from that. There are all sorts of opinions regarding exactly when life begins, ranging from conception to implantation to when the embryo has an identifiable blood supply of its own, to birth.

If life begins at conception then an IUD must logically be considered a murder weapon. Anything that inhibits the zygote from implanting in the uterus must be regarded as a murder weapon. These things are typically regarded as perfectly legitimate methods of contraception.

There certainly is a lot of contradiction in the current laws regarding the status of the unborn, and it appears to alternate between a person and a bunch of cells depending on the mother's opinion of whether it's wanted or not. That aspect makes no sense at all.

 

[tango]

I understand what you mean, I find that a very rare case though, you could give it up for adoption but the medical bills probably averages around the same as the cost to have an abortion

Sure, cases when a woman is raped and ends up pregnant are certainly rare. They are the sort of situation where it's very easy to make grand proclamations of what should or shouldn't be done, when you're not the one who has to actually do the things being described. It seems like the kind of situation where whatever the woman does she faces a world of turmoil - I'm reliably informed that an abortion can cause all sorts of feelings of guilt and wondering "what if" for years if not decades, and yet the process of carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth isn't necessarily a walk in the park either even when the child is wanted.

Of course an ongoing issue is that it makes no sense at all to demand a mother literally dies because terminating a pregnancy that will kill her is unlawful. And yet as soon as the door is opened slightly, however extreme the circumstance needs to be to allow it, before long people will be lining up to say that they are a special case.

One thing I find particularly bizarre is the tendency of people to insist that abortion should be available as little more than a last option if contraception fails, that late term abortion should be permissible for no reason other than a would-be mother deciding 7 months in that maybe she doesn't want to be a mother after all, while at the same time insisting that people facing mortal danger from another person shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.

 

[Andrew]

You can't really just take an opinion and present it as if it were fact, and then derive things from that. There are all sorts of opinions regarding exactly when life begins, ranging from conception to implantation to when the embryo has an identifiable blood supply of its own, to birth.

If life begins at conception then an IUD must logically be considered a murder weapon. Anything that inhibits the zygote from implanting in the uterus must be regarded as a murder weapon. These things are typically regarded as perfectly legitimate methods of contraception.

There certainly is a lot of contradiction in the current laws regarding the status of the unborn, and it appears to alternate between a person and a bunch of cells depending on the mother's opinion of whether it's wanted or not. That aspect makes no sense at all.

Yet the Law counts an unborn child as a 'person' in the case of a pregnant mother being murdered in which the suspect is charged with double homicide. The Law affirms it so but they turn a deaf ear in the case of abortion, which is which?

 

[tango]

Yet the Law counts an unborn child as a 'person' in the case of a pregnant mother being murdered in which the suspect is charged with double homicide. The Law affirms it so but they turn a deaf ear in the case of abortion, which is which?

... which is what I was getting at with regard to the contradiction. If the mother doesn't want the child then it's just a bunch of cells but if she does want the child it's a human life.

I wonder if I could use the same line of reasoning in other matters. Maybe I can go out to work and earn a lot of money but when the taxman comes a-calling I decide I don't feel very wealthy and don't want to pay taxes.