The best human trait

[YESLORDIWILL]

.

 

[1689Dave]

Hi Albion, I'm affiliated with an independent fundamental Baptist church but consider myself and my congregation as part of the body of Christ. I tried to change the affiliation when I returned the other day but couldn't figure it out. I don't know why it says "other"

Your church model fits the only definition of church in the Bible.

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion, I'm affiliated with an independent fundamental Baptist church but consider myself and my congregation as part of the body of Christ. I tried to change the affiliation when I returned the other day but couldn't figure it out. I don't know why it says "other"

Hmmm. I don't know why either, but I am sure Lamb can fix it for you.

I cannot imagine why "Baptist" wouldn't be the right entry, and the fact that there are various Baptist conventions as well as independent congregations wouldn't make any difference.

 

[donadams]

No examples of your method of "Baptism". Not one.

Ez 36:25
This promise
Acts 2:38-39
God seals us in the ark of salvation by baptism!
I will sprinkle you with water…

why does it need to be in scripture?
Is the scripture limited to 66 books?
Is the word of God / revelation limited to scripture? Thanks

 

[1689Dave]

Ez 36:25
This promise
Acts 2:38-39
God seals us in the ark of salvation by baptism!
I will sprinkle you with water…

why does it need to be in scripture?
Is the scripture limited to 66 books?
Is the word of God / revelation limited to scripture? Thanks

No scripture teaches what you claim. If it does, prove it.

 

[donadams]

Your church model fits the only definition of church in the Bible.

Really? Where are the words “independent fundamentalist baptist” found in scripture? Please

 

[1689Dave]

Really? Where are the words “independent fundamentalist baptist” found in scripture? Please

They have it wrong too.

 

[donadams]

The only mention of Baptism combined with an illustration is Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ. Are you sure you were baptized? What proof from scripture can you provide?

If you really believe in the name of Jesus you would obey him! Matt 28:19 or are you opposing the doctrine of the trinity? Thanks

 

[1689Dave]

If you really believe in the name of Jesus you would obey him! Matt 28:19 or are you opposing the doctrine of the trinity? Thanks

I did, they baptized me, a trinitarian, in the name of Jesus Christ as taught in scripture.

 

[donadams]

But the Apostles interpreted it as baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ. The Pope usurped their and Jesus' authority by doing it his way.

The papacy is founded and established by Christ with authority but they did not do so!
Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Prove it from scripture. Jesus told believers: “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:23 (KJV 1900)

I did provide scripture, and Jn 20:21-23 only applies to the apostles
Jurisdictional authority:

Hierarchical authority:


God always establishes peace and by obedience to hierarchical authority!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom:
The civil gov:
The church:
The family:


All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:

If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!

God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:
Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!

Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions that came out of Luther’s little experiment!




Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Apostles are ordained / bishops / ministry

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Same ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Apostolic authority!
God sent them apostles to teach them the truth revealed by Christ!
Matt 28:19 all the apostles
Philip an apostle acts 8
Peter an apostle acts 10

Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Acts 1:8 my witnesses

There is a big difference between the people, and the priesthood of Christ and the apostles!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you. And Jn 17:18 I send you!

(The apostles with the same minisrty, power, and authority)

The apostles received the kingdom.
Lk 22:29

The apostles administer the kingdom. Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

The apostles govern the church.
Matt 28:19-20

The apostles hold office.
Acts 1:15-20

The apostles have authority to forgive sins. Jn 20:23

Apostles are the light of the world!
Matt 5:14

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Three fold ministry,

Teaching:
Sanctification:
Governing:

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

God established order and peace and knowledge of truth in a hierarchical authority of Peter and the apostles!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!

All are ordered with hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

A distinct line of demarcation between Christ and His priesthood / and the people!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (The apostles are to teach the people matt 28:19)

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to-ward you:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;






Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Initiation into the new covenant must be ministered to you by the apostles!


There CANNOT be both!

Either Apostolic tradition in hierarchical authority which establishes truth, peace and order!

Or

Spiritual anarchy producing chaos and disorder!



Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Men show us the way of salvation?

 

[1689Dave]

I did provide scripture, and Jn 20:21-23 only applies to the apostles
Jurisdictional authority:

Hierarchical authority:


God always establishes peace and by obedience to hierarchical authority!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom:
The civil gov:
The church:
The family:


All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:

If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!

God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:
Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!

Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions that came out of Luther’s little experiment!




Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Apostles are ordained / bishops / ministry

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Same ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Apostolic authority!
God sent them apostles to teach them the truth revealed by Christ!
Matt 28:19 all the apostles
Philip an apostle acts 8
Peter an apostle acts 10

Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Acts 1:8 my witnesses

There is a big difference between the people, and the priesthood of Christ and the apostles!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you. And Jn 17:18 I send you!

(The apostles with the same minisrty, power, and authority)

The apostles received the kingdom.
Lk 22:29

The apostles administer the kingdom. Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

The apostles govern the church.
Matt 28:19-20

The apostles hold office.
Acts 1:15-20

The apostles have authority to forgive sins. Jn 20:23

Apostles are the light of the world!
Matt 5:14

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Three fold ministry,

Teaching:
Sanctification:
Governing:

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

God established order and peace and knowledge of truth in a hierarchical authority of Peter and the apostles!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!

All are ordered with hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

A distinct line of demarcation between Christ and His priesthood / and the people!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (The apostles are to teach the people matt 28:19)

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to-ward you:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;






Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Initiation into the new covenant must be ministered to you by the apostles!


There CANNOT be both!

Either Apostolic tradition in hierarchical authority which establishes truth, peace and order!

Or

Spiritual anarchy producing chaos and disorder!



Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Men show us the way of salvation?

That is not scripture. It is your interpretation of scripture

 

[1689Dave]

The papacy is founded and established by Christ with authority but they did not do so!
Matt 28:19

The holy church obeys the command Of Jesus!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing so remain in Christ!

Keep his commandment!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn 2:5 But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

His word: Matt 28:19

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Thanks

This is not true. Any Christian could do what the pope claims special privileges for. Each Christian is a priest and can remit sins.

 

[donadams]

You are not providing scripture, only your interpretation of scripture. Why do you think Protestants called the pope Antichrist if not for this and other of his activities?

What authority did they have to call him anti-Christ or to pretend to reform truth or the church which is divine and from God who err’s not?

the church is the ark of salvation and the pillar of truth!
1 Tim 3:15
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
Thanks

 

[1689Dave]

What authority did they have to call him anti-Christ or to pretend to reform truth or the church which is divine and from God who err’s not?

the church is the ark of salvation and the pillar of truth!
1 Tim 3:15
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit!
Thanks

Paul describes the Papacy as Antichrist:

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

The Church (Christendom) is the Temple of God in the New Testament. Vicar of Christ = in place of Christ.

 

[donadams]

Don, we already know that you are a believer in whatever your own denomination teaches, including about its supposed uniqueness and the invalidity of every other Christian church.

Telling us constantly that you do so believe is not accomplishing anything. We "heard" it the first time, so try moving onto something else in which all of us Christians here can participate.

Ok

The forum is about virtue

What is the motive of a Christian?

It is because they operate from a motive of pride, and the nature of pride is always to protest, rebellion, and to stand in opposition!

The nature of humility is always faithfulness, obedience, subjection, and meekness!

A Virtue of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Example:

St Joseph never says a single word in scripture but always faithfully obeys in all humility and allows scripture to speak volumes for Him!

Matt 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man!

 

[Albion]

Paul describes the Papacy as Antichrist:

Could you possibly be serious when posting to us? And "close enough" for dramatic effect isn't good enough when saying things like you this. Of course, Paul did not describe the Papacy as Antichrist.

 

[1689Dave]

Could you possibly be serious when posting to us? And "close enough" for dramatic effect isn't good enough when saying things like you this. Of course, Paul did not describe the Papacy as Antichrist.

Would you like to see the creeds of those who disagree with you?

Creeds naming the papacy as the Antichrist;

The first written history suggests Arnulf, the archbishop of Reims in the 10th century identified the Papacy as the Antichrist. Later Joachim of Fiore in the 12th century preached the Papacy was the Antichrist. This led to the martyrdom of many Albigenses, Anabaptists, and others who in part embraced his views. And the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240 also related the papacy to the Antichrist. Synopsis of the End Times; A look at the popular beliefs of today by Mike Morrill.

From The Westminster Confession which also with some adjustments became the 1st and 2nd London Baptist Confessions.

Chapter XXV

Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof. but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.



And from the preface to the Canons of Dort;

For this Church being by God’s mighty hand set free from the tyranny of the Romish Antichrist, & from the fearful idolatry of Popery.....



Martin Luther declared, “We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist.” (Aug. 18, 1520). According to The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121.



I shall briefly show that (Paul’s words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy.” According to Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin.

John Knox concluded that the Papacy was “the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks.” The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199.



“Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons.” (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.)

Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.



“the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2).

Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America):” The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.



Cotton Mather (1663-1728) (Congregational Theologian): “The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them.” According to The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom’s book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.



John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110.



A Great Cloud of Witnesses: “Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist.” According to All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991.

 

[Albion]

What authority did they have to call him anti-Christ or to pretend to reform truth or the church which is divine and from God who err’s not?

Those who thought that way were going by the many doctrinal innovations that were made during the Middle Ages by the Roman Church such, for instance, as Transubstantiation, Purgatory, saint worship, claims of Papal Infallibility, and so on.

Thinking that none of these were Scriptural OR in accord with the teachings and practices of the early church, these people were inclined to think that the end of the age was near, and these developments were indications of it. In addition, the Papacy itself had become very worldly and political during the century that came just before the Reformation, so that also played a part. Naturally, we today think that the charge ("anti-Christ") was extreme, but most moderns aren't very well acquainted with the world as it was at that time.

the church is the ark of salvation and the pillar of truth!
1 Tim 3:15

Yes, but not necessarily every denomination...and not at all times.

 

[Albion]

Would you like to see the creeds of those who disagree with you?

I called to your attention the Creeds that are not just the statements of belief of certain denominations. Feel free to comment on them, if you wish, and attempt an explanation as to why they do not support your theory.