Still Struggling

[Faith]

Well people, I went to a Catholic Mass tonight, as well as Ash Wednesday and two Saturdays ago and I just don’t like it nearly as much as my contemporary Lutheran church. The whole time I was there tonight I was wishing I wasn’t there. And I was sitting with a couple of friends and still felt like that.
I know we’ve discussed this ad nauseam but I just don’t know what to do!
In my mind, it seems stupid to go to a church that believes in creationism when I believe in theistic evolution. Can someone again tell me what to do???????

 

[tango]

Is it truly necessary to believe in every single thing that your church believes in?

If you believe the same core things, do a few peripheral things make a big difference? If the church requires that you believe in creationism and you don't then that could be an issue, but if they don't require it is it an area where you can agree to disagree?

I attend a church that believes in pacifism. I don't condone violence for the sake of it but if you break into my house and pose any threat to my family the time before you meet your maker likely just got a whole lot shorter. It's not what my church believes but it doesn't stop me from attending. It doesn't stop me from preaching at church and it didn't stop me being nominated as an elder.

 

[Lamb]

What made you decide to go back to a Catholic mass?

 

[Albion]

Well people, I went to a Catholic Mass tonight, as well as Ash Wednesday and two Saturdays ago and I just don’t like it nearly as much as my contemporary Lutheran church. The whole time I was there tonight I was wishing I wasn’t there. And I was sitting with a couple of friends and still felt like that.
I know we’ve discussed this ad nauseam but I just don’t know what to do!
In my mind, it seems stupid to go to a church that believes in creationism when I believe in theistic evolution. Can someone again tell me what to do???????

First, tell us if you believe every teaching of the Catholic Church, or something that is at least typical or very common among Catholic clergy and laypersons. Then we and you can make a fairer comparison. After all, you are not saying "What church is for me?" You have already narrowed the possibilities to only two.

Literal Creationism, which you understandably reject, is not an essential doctrine in the LCMS, so I'm wondering if accepting the Catholic beliefs in, for example, the infallibility of the Pope or the existence of Purgatory, pose no problems for you.

At the same time, it looks from your post that it was actually the Catholic worship service, the Mass, that "put you off," this time, not any reflecting back on the Creationism issue. As a result, it doesn't seem that Creationism, pro or con, is the real key to making a final a decision about your church membership.

 

[Faith]

What made you decide to go back to a Catholic mass?

Worries about being a theistic evolutionist, mostly. And to some degree my belief in the age of the earth. Same old stuff.

 

[Faith]

First, tell us if you believe every teaching of the Catholic Church, or something that is at least typical or very common among Catholic clergy and laypersons. Then we and you can make a fairer comparison. After all, you are not saying "What church is for me?" You have already narrowed the possibilities to only two.

Literal Creationism, which you understandably reject, is not an essential doctrine in the LCMS, so I'm wondering if accepting the Catholic beliefs in, for example, the infallibility of the Pope or the existence of Purgatory, pose no problems for you.

At the same time, it looks from your post that it was actually the Catholic worship service, the Mass, that "put you off," this time, not any reflecting back on the Creationism issue. As a result, it doesn't seem that Creationism, pro or con, is the real key to making a final a decision about your church membership.

Probably not, but for some reason (my OCD?) I just kind of gloss over those things I strongly disagree with about Catholicism. I strongly disagree with their refusal to marry a couple if the man is disabled to the point he can’t perform his uh, husbandly duties. I strongly disagree with their teachings on birth control. I’m unsure about their teaching on praying to Mary and the saints. I‘m unsure about their teaching on the death penalty. Unsure about Papal infallibility and purgatory.

 

[Lamb]

Probably not, but for some reason (my OCD?) I just kind of gloss over those things I strongly disagree with about Catholicism. I strongly disagree with their refusal to marry a couple if the man is disabled to the point he can’t perform his uh, husbandly duties. I strongly disagree with their teachings on birth control. I’m unsure about their teaching on praying to Mary and the saints. I‘m unsure about their teaching on the death penalty. Unsure about Papal infallibility and purgatory.

Since you disagree with so much, then stop visiting their churches. It's as simple as that.

 

[Faith]

Since you disagree with so much, then stop visiting their churches. It's as simple as that.

But I feel like this whole thing about my opinions on evolution and now to a lesser degree the age of the earth seems more important, but maybe that’s just me.
The older lady’s singing last night really drove me up the wall.


BTW, that’s another cute lamb!

 

[Albion]

Probably not, but for some reason (my OCD?) I just kind of gloss over those things I strongly disagree with about Catholicism. I strongly disagree with their refusal to marry a couple if the man is disabled to the point he can’t perform his uh, husbandly duties. I strongly disagree with their teachings on birth control. I’m unsure about their teaching on praying to Mary and the saints. I‘m unsure about their teaching on the death penalty. Unsure about Papal infallibility and purgatory.

Thanks for your reply, Faith.

Okay then, you disagree with a variety of Catholic teachings in addition to the one that bothers you about the Lutherans, and you are aware of what all of these are. Birth control, saint veneration, yes, and probably also Papal Infallibility and Purgatory (although those are ones I selected as examples) are distinctly Catholic and are not easily accepted by you.

That being the case...and the fact of there being only two churches (RC and LCMS) that you are considering, I cannot imagine how you'd feel as ambivalent as you still seem to be.

It's been said before by me, other members, AND your local LCMS pastor (!), that there is nothing preventing you from becoming a member of the LCMS in good conscience, AND on top of that you've found that your recent return visits to the Catholic Church for Mass left you feeling uncomfortable with that liturgy. Being at ease with your own conscience is important, I agree, but what more information could you possibly gather in order for you to feel ready to make the choice??

So, I really feel that there is no reason to go on like this. You don't have to formally join the Lutheran church right away, which should ease your conscience; but continuing on as you are, caught between two choices like this, is surely not in your best interests, either emotionally or spiritually.

 

[Faith]

Thanks for your reply, Faith.

Okay then, you disagree with a variety of Catholic teachings in addition to the one that bothers you about the Lutherans, and you are aware of what all of these are. Birth control, saint veneration, yes, and probably also Papal Infallibility and Purgatory (although those are ones I selected as examples) are distinctly Catholic and are not easily accepted by you.

That being the case...and the fact of there being only two churches (RC and LCMS) that you are considering, I cannot imagine how you'd feel as ambivalent as you still seem to be.

It's been said before by me, other members, AND your local LCMS pastor (!), that there is nothing preventing you from becoming a member of the LCMS in good conscience, AND on top of that you've found that your recent return visits to the Catholic Church for Mass left you feeling uncomfortable with that liturgy. Being at ease with your own conscience is important, I agree, but what more information could you possibly gather in order for you to feel ready to make the choice??

So, I really feel that there is no reason to go on like this. You don't have to formally join the Lutheran church right away, which should ease your conscience; but continuing on as you are, caught between two choices like this, is surely not in your best interests, either emotionally or spiritually.

It’s just that in my mind (for whatever that’s worth) I just feel guilty for attending the LCMS when I’m a theistic evolutionist. Just like with the age of the earth, I feel like maybe I’m the only one in the LCMS who believes as I do,

 

[Albion]

It’s just that in my mind (for whatever that’s worth) I just feel guilty for attending the LCMS when I’m a theistic evolutionist. Just like with the age of the earth, I feel like maybe I’m the only one in the LCMS who believes as I do,

Well, you cannot be the only one. You probably are aware that the LCMS convention voted on the matter a little while ago, and while the literal, creationist side won, plenty of official delegates to the convention, chosen by their churches, voted against it. Thus, it doesn't seem that the side you are wary of represents the entirely of the membership of the denomination, even at the upper levels.

 

[Faith]

Is it truly necessary to believe in every single thing that your church believes in?

If you believe the same core things, do a few peripheral things make a big difference? If the church requires that you believe in creationism and you don't then that could be an issue, but if they don't require it is it an area where you can agree to disagree?

I attend a church that believes in pacifism. I don't condone violence for the sake of it but if you break into my house and pose any threat to my family the time before you meet your maker likely just got a whole lot shorter. It's not what my church believes but it doesn't stop me from attending. It doesn't stop me from preaching at church and it didn't stop me being nominated as an elder.

Is it necessary? I guess not, but I thought that believing in creationism was a big requirement in the LCMS, even though I think Josiah said it isn’t

 

[Lamb]

Is it necessary? I guess not, but I thought that believing in creationism was a big requirement in the LCMS, even though I think Josiah said it isn’t

I also told you it's not a requirement. And it's honestly not as big a deal as the other parts of theology as you're making it out to be. What you believe about Jesus, forgiveness, baptism and Holy Communion is far more important.

 

[tango]

Is it necessary? I guess not, but I thought that believing in creationism was a big requirement in the LCMS, even though I think Josiah said it isn’t

If I recall didn't your pastor also say it wasn't a problem?

When I was nominated as an elder I talked to my pastor to make sure my views on pacifism weren't going to be an issue. I didn't want to agree to something only to find that the areas I disagreed with the "standard" church views would cause problems. When the pastor says it's not a problem and when Scripture doesn't say it's central to salvation I'd say that's all you need.

If other LCMS churches take a different stance you can always not attend those.

 

[Faith]

If I recall didn't your pastor also say it wasn't a problem?

When I was nominated as an elder I talked to my pastor to make sure my views on pacifism weren't going to be an issue. I didn't want to agree to something only to find that the areas I disagreed with the "standard" church views would cause problems. When the pastor says it's not a problem and when Scripture doesn't say it's central to salvation I'd say that's all you need.

If other LCMS churches take a different stance you can always not attend those.

Yes my pastor did say that but he also said that I couldn’t teach there because of my views, which isn’t a problem since I don’t want to teach. BUT since he said I couldn’t teach there that gave me the impression that my views are a real biggie.

 

[Lamb]

Yes my pastor did say that but he also said that I couldn’t teach there because of my views, which isn’t a problem since I don’t want to teach. BUT since he said I couldn’t teach there that gave me the impression that my views are a real biggie.

Did he say you couldn't teach there specifically because of your views on creationism/evolution, or was it more than that?

 

[Faith]

Did he say you couldn't teach there specifically because of your views on creationism/evolution, or was it more than that?

My views on creationism/evolution/age of the earth.

 

[Lamb]

My views on creationism/evolution/age of the earth.

Now I'm curious about this...most Lutheran churches I've been to don't even have Bible studies on the topic. Is this something you wanted to teach and reached out to him concerning it?

 

[Faith]

Now I'm curious about this...most Lutheran churches I've been to don't even have Bible studies on the topic. Is this something you wanted to teach and reached out to him concerning it?

No. I don’t want to teach. We had classes on various topics available at one time plus we have a preschool.

 

[tango]

Yes my pastor did say that but he also said that I couldn’t teach there because of my views, which isn’t a problem since I don’t want to teach. BUT since he said I couldn’t teach there that gave me the impression that my views are a real biggie.

That's an interesting stance for him to take.

My pastor said I should avoid teaching anything that directly contradicts the church's stance on issues but aside from that not to worry. Generally contradicting the church's stance strays more into political viewpoints, and I make a point to keep politics out of it when I'm in the pulpit.

I'm not averse to addressing specific issues through a "what should a Christian do?" lens but never have and never plan to promote one candidate or party over another. The one (and so far only) time I've overtly walked out during a sermon was when the speaker (not at my church, I should add!) was doing just that. Ironically I agreed with their political stance, I just didn't believe the pulpit was an appropriate place for it.