Stand for the National Anthem?

[tango]

We have no law in the US but we do have a flag code which states that people "should" stand. Not must stand but should. I suppose that when I see people not standing I think of them first as being disabled. If I know they're doing it to make a point, then I just automatically in my mind see them as being purposely disrespectful to put attention themselves and their cause which isn't going to get a nod from me through their disrespect. But that's my opinion.

I tend to feel a little self-conscious in a group in the US when the pledge of allegiance is recited. I have no problem standing and facing the flag but typically stand with my hands behind my back and don't speak the words of the pledge. I have no problem with respecting US customs as I am a visitor but won't pledge allegiance to the flag because I'm not a US citizen. To me it seems like a happy medium between respecting customs, respecting my hosts, while also not speaking words that aren't relevant to me.

 

[tango]

As a vet I find this disgusting although the issue they are highlighting I agree with. As I said they have every right to do it but they do not have a right to be in the NFL so I hope that eventually they will be given the choice to stand or be fired, right to protest but no right to be in the NFL

It doesn't seem like the best method of protesting but at present it seems like the NFL isn't going to do anything about it. Hence the comment about a boycott, if enough people find the actions of specific players sufficiently objectionable that they withhold their dollars in sufficient quantity that the NFL starts to lose out things will change soon enough. If people continue to hand over large amounts of money for anything approved by the NFL, there's no apparent reason for the NFL to make any changes unless the management finds the protests unacceptable, and it doesn't seem that they see it as a problem at present.

 

[Stravinsk]

Should he be punished?

The argument from hindsight can't be made, because at the time, no one had it.

 

[Rens]

We always say: I'm not a hamburger but a heaven burger, joke doesn't work in English, a citizen of heaven. Just happen to live here.

 

[psalms 91]

It doesn't seem like the best method of protesting but at present it seems like the NFL isn't going to do anything about it. Hence the comment about a boycott, if enough people find the actions of specific players sufficiently objectionable that they withhold their dollars in sufficient quantity that the NFL starts to lose out things will change soon enough. If people continue to hand over large amounts of money for anything approved by the NFL, there's no apparent reason for the NFL to make any changes unless the management finds the protests unacceptable, and it doesn't seem that they see it as a problem at present.

I ahree and ther e are many whop feel as I do

 

[Lamb]

Should he be punished?

The argument from hindsight can't be made, because at the time, no one had it.

If he were seen by the government he probably was punished. The National Anthem and showing respect isn't the same as saluting a government that is committing genocide. Our government does not encourage racism...it's the media that does.

 

[psalms 91]

If he were seen by the government he probably was punished. The National Anthem and showing respect isn't the same as saluting a government that is committing genocide. Our government does not encourage racism...it's the media that does.

Yes

 

[Stravinsk]

If he were seen by the government he probably was punished. The National Anthem and showing respect isn't the same as saluting a government that is committing genocide. Our government does not encourage racism...it's the media that does.

Your making the assumption that the masses saluting know about the mass genocide. The picture doesn't show the specific year, so it may not even be during wartime. There is also no internet in those days, and the only news they are likely to be exposed to is German State news. Like I said - hindsight *cannot* be used. Not if you are any of the people in the picture, it can't.

Speaking to the issue of genocide - have you ever looked at the numbers of people around the world that the USA has either directly or indirectly murdered? Directly - through war (Vietnam,Iraq,Afghanistan,Syria as recent examples), or indirectly - through setting up brutal dictatorships (The Shaw in Iran as a fairly recent example, also the backing of Saddam Hussein prior to gulf war), in the 70's - the brutal dictator of Chile (Pinochet) backed by the USA.

This is why I say to the "pro life" people - I agree with the position but mostly I don't see it's consistency across the board.
This is why I say to the "remember 911" people - are you mourning the millions dead as a result of USA's sanctions before and then actions after the event? Or just the 3000 you believe died? If you are only mourning USA deaths - how are you different from any person save the non saluting German in the photo?

- Do any of the people in the Green and Blue portions count in calculating deaths? Or just the 3000 we were told died in the USA on Sept 11?

Is there a "remember our stuff up in Vietnam" day? Remember how many people our military murdered? How about a "remember the over a million murdered in Iraq" during operation "shock and awe"? And Afghanistan - how about a memorial for the innocents murdered there?

 

[psalms 91]

Your making the assumption that the masses saluting know about the mass genocide. The picture doesn't show the specific year, so it may not even be during wartime. There is also no internet in those days, and the only news they are likely to be exposed to is German State news. Like I said - hindsight *cannot* be used. Not if you are any of the people in the picture, it can't.

Speaking to the issue of genocide - have you ever looked at the numbers of people around the world that the USA has either directly or indirectly murdered? Directly - through war (Vietnam,Iraq,Afghanistan,Syria as recent examples), or indirectly - through setting up brutal dictatorships (The Shaw in Iran as a fairly recent example, also the backing of Saddam Hussein prior to gulf war), in the 70's - the brutal dictator of Chile (Pinochet) backed by the USA.

This is why I say to the "pro life" people - I agree with the position but mostly I don't see it's consistency across the board.
This is why I say to the "remember 911" people - are you mourning the millions dead as a result of USA's sanctions before and then actions after the event? Or just the 3000 you believe died? If you are only mourning USA deaths - how are you different from any person save the non saluting German in the photo?

- Do any of the people in the Green and Blue portions count in calculating deaths? Or just the 3000 we were told died in the USA on Sept 11?

Is there a "remember our stuff up in Vietnam" day? Remember how many people our military murdered? How about a "remember the over a million murdered in Iraq" during operation "shock and awe"? And Afghanistan - how about a memorial for the innocents murdered there?

As one who served during Vietnam how dare you. Do you forget the 50,000 killed on our side? While our policeies have not always been the best concerning other natiuons I am sick and tired of history beinmg brought up to compare to now, history is just that history. The past cannot e changed it is now that counts and as for those whoa re killed, what about those who wish to do us harm? SAre you advocating sitting back and letting them? Vietnam was perhaps not a very just war but for thiose fighting it it was. A shame that you have no respect for those who serve or for those who lost their lives

 

[Stravinsk]

As one who served during Vietnam how dare you. Do you forget the 50,000 killed on our side? While our policeies have not always been the best concerning other natiuons I am sick and tired of history beinmg brought up to compare to now, history is just that history. The past cannot e changed it is now that counts and as for those whoa re killed, what about those who wish to do us harm? SAre you advocating sitting back and letting them? Vietnam was perhaps not a very just war but for thiose fighting it it was. A shame that you have no respect for those who serve or for those who lost their lives

I do not care that you served in Vietnam psalms, and no - I do not respect the actions of a person, nor his or her decision to go off into a foreign land to kill and murder people just because they believe the crap that the government of the day is feeding their people. And it is crap, most of the time it is. One has to be a super nationalist non-thinking sheep to even imagine that a tiny country in Southeast Asia going communist is going to spark some sort of world - wide communism.

But that crap is enough for enough dumbs to be yelling "for freedom" while they baby kill and murder men women and children. No sir, I do not respect your decision, either as a sign up or as obeying a draft. You should have said "no, I am not going to go and put bullets into other people simply because my government thinks it's a good idea".

Not sorry if this offends your "safe space". Take me off your friends list, if you like. It seems we have little in common anyway - and set me on ignore. The reason why Vietnam ended was that the truth finally came out - and the people rebelled against their own government's tyranny - against them - for sending them to war to become murderers, and to be murdered for the government player's and corporate entities greed, and mostly - against the innocents in the country that had no say at all.

You say you are sick and tired of hearing history. I am not surprised. Perhaps you have never heard the saying that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"? You ask if I "forgot" the deaths on "our side". News for you, sir - the people who died are not on anyone's side. War and murder isn't a flipping sports game. It's not about "winning". War - by it's very nature - always means LOSING. It is DEBT AND DEATH AND LOSS OF HUMAN DECENCY AND MORALITY. A tyrant may be defeated, but it is a net loss for everyone.

 

[psalms 91]

I do not care that you served in Vietnam psalms, and no - I do not respect the actions of a person, nor his or her decision to go off into a foreign land to kill and murder people just because they believe the crap that the government of the day is feeding their people. And it is crap, most of the time it is. One has to be a super nationalist non-thinking sheep to even imagine that a tiny country in Southeast Asia going communist is going to spark some sort of world - wide communism.

But that crap is enough for enough dumbs to be yelling "for freedom" while they baby kill and murder men women and children. No sir, I do not respect your decision, either as a sign up or as obeying a draft. You should have said "no, I am not going to go and put bullets into other people simply because my government thinks it's a good idea".

Not sorry if this offends your "safe space". Take me off your friends list, if you like. It seems we have little in common anyway - and set me on ignore. The reason why Vietnam ended was that the truth finally came out - and the people rebelled against their own government's tyranny - against them - for sending them to war to become murderers, and to be murdered for the government player's and corporate entities greed, and mostly - against the innocents in the country that had no say at all.

You say you are sick and tired of hearing history. I am not surprised. Perhaps you have never heard the saying that "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"? You ask if I "forgot" the deaths on "our side". News for you, sir - the people who died are not on anyone's side. War and murder isn't a flipping sports game. It's not about "winning". War - by it's very nature - always means LOSING. It is DEBT AND DEATH AND LOSS OF HUMAN DECENCY AND MORALITY. A tyrant may be defeated, but it is a net loss for everyone.

Did not say to forget it but dont keep going back to it all the time to justify every thing thta has come down the pike in the last 200myears and as for you I lost all respect for you a long time ago with your anti american views. I lost friends in Nam and I remember the sickos like you calling the returning soliers baby killers and other things, Personally you are less than disgusting and I will not put you on ignore simply because your crap needs answered, believe me I have thought about it. You have obvuiously never served so talk to me when you do and until then anything you have to say about the flag or service or sacrifice I really dont care to hear as you are just talking our of your you know what.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's worth being careful about who you support ... and what you say ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTFYnXJSCm8

 

[Stravinsk]

Did not say to forget it but dont keep going back to it all the time to justify every thing thta has come down the pike in the last 200myears and as for you I lost all respect for you a long time ago with your anti american views. I lost friends in Nam and I remember the sickos like you calling the returning soliers baby killers and other things, Personally you are less than disgusting and I will not put you on ignore simply because your crap needs answered, believe me I have thought about it. You have obvuiously never served so talk to me when you do and until then anything you have to say about the flag or service or sacrifice I really dont care to hear as you are just talking our of your you know what.

Oh but Psalms 91...I don't have to "go way back" to Vietnam - this crap still goes on to this day - which is why I brought up the most recent wars and recent lies. How about those WMD in Iraq? You know - one of the latest lies told by the US government to justify more military spending and mass murder in the middle east?

I bet you believed that too, didn't you?

Tell me Bill, is it American to just believe all the crap the government tells you, especially when it has such serious consequences for human lives - scores of lives of civilians in other countries - and even American soldiers lives? Is this what being "pro America" means to you? If so, then take stock, brother. None of the dead our lauding the greatness of their country. They're dead for serving lies. NOT honorable.

As for killing children - that was done in Vietnam (as it has been done in Afghanistan, as it has been done in Iraq) - so it is simply the truth to call (at least those among the military that participated in them) - children killers, and where they killed babies - baby killers.

But oh, I'm forgetting again. That's not politically correct. It doesn't sound very nice - even if it is the truth.

 

[Rens]

I wouldn't say a thing about it. They always do the dirty work while our men do stupid side stuff or nothing. They did save us from the Germans.

 

[Stravinsk]

I wouldn't say a thing about it. They always do the dirty work while our men do stupid side stuff or nothing. They did save us from the Germans.

Germany was clearly the aggressor. Who strikes first does matter.

That being said - the West put very unreasonable conditions on Germany after WWI - the people had reason to rally to a person like Hitler - the whole country was being punished multi-year via the Treaty of Versaille.

Don't forget the British and Russia also played a role in defeating Germany.

Don't think that Bill will mind this bit of history being brought up - America's role in WW2 - because it's only the negative history being brought up that he doesn't like.

 

[psalms 91]

Oh but Psalms 91...I don't have to "go way back" to Vietnam - this crap still goes on to this day - which is why I brought up the most recent wars and recent lies. How about those WMD in Iraq? You know - one of the latest lies told by the US government to justify more military spending and mass murder in the middle east?

I bet you believed that too, didn't you?

Tell me Bill, is it American to just believe all the crap the government tells you, especially when it has such serious consequences for human lives - scores of lives of civilians in other countries - and even American soldiers lives? Is this what being "pro America" means to you? If so, then take stock, brother. None of the dead our lauding the greatness of their country. They're dead for serving lies. NOT honorable.

As for killing children - that was done in Vietnam (as it has been done in Afghanistan, as it has been done in Iraq) - so it is simply the truth to call (at least those among the military that participated in them) - children killers, and where they killed babies - baby killers.

But oh, I'm forgetting again. That's not politically correct. It doesn't sound very nice - even if it is the truth.

You know I expect nothing less from the likes of you than tyou call servicemen murderers and baby killers, you and those like you do not understand sacrifice, bravery, or serving your country even when you dont believe they are right. I did not support Nam but I went into the service rather than dodge the sdrift like so many fo the cowards did. You want to call servicemen baby killers it is your right but I do hope that someone puts a fist in your mouth for doing it. I hope that someday you will need the military and they wont be there for you, lets see what you say then. You are one despicible human and I understand now why you got banned from so many sites, you are just fortunate you are on this site because personally I want to see you banned

 

[Romanos]

This topic has gotten way out of hand and there shouldn't have been any flaming in this discussion. There is a way to disagree without attacking others.

I've closed this topic.