[Split] Very Liberal Christianity Abortion/Pro-Life posts

[JRT]

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

 

[Josiah]

Florida is the only state that requires that the mother state why she is aborting the baby.

The state of Florida records a reason for every abortion that occurs within its borders each year. In 2015, there were 71,740 abortions in Florida. This table lists each reason and the percentage of abortions that occurred because of it.

Percentage Reason
.001% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.065% The woman's life was endangered by the pregnancy
.085% The woman was raped
.288% The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
.294% The woman's psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
.666% There was a serious fetal abnormality
6.268% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
92.330% No reason (elective)



In 2014, the Guttmacher Institute anonymously surveyed 1,209 post-abortive women from nine different abortion clinics across the country. Of the women surveyed, 957 provided a main reason for having an abortion. This table lists each reason and the percentage of respondents who chose it.

Percentage Reason
<0.5% Victim of rape
3% Fetal health problems
4% Physical health problems
4% Would interfere with education or career
7% Not mature enough to raise a child
8% Don't want to be a single mother
19% Done having children
23% Can't afford a baby
25% Not ready for a child
6% Other




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[Josiah]

I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb.

I disagree with this "performance" definition of life. By this reasoning, when one comes under health care (they would not survive without their medication for example) they cease to be alive (or at least human). I had surgery when I was 5 and for a period of some hours was under complete life support, yet IMO I was still a human being with full human rights during that time.

And of course, while a baby might live after 20 weeks of gestation, he/she might be a teenager before they can survive on their own (heck, a LOT of 25 year olds seem unable to live on their own, lol). But I consider them alive and fully human. They may not be able to live unassisted but that per se doesn't mean they are dead or some other species. They are HUMANS with LIFE who need our care and protection, not killing.


That's my "take"


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive. There is a potential person there and a great many people would claim that it actually is a person. Let us grant for a moment that the zygote is a person and let us call that person Mary. I choose a female name since all embryos are female until about the sixth or seventh week.

Now, we all know that a zygote develops into an embryo through the process of cell division. Every now and again the first cell division does not produce a two celled embryo but rather a second zygote --- identical twins. Did Mary suddenly become two persons? Was Mary two persons to begin with? Was Mary even a person to begin with? Let us set those questions aside for the moment and grant that the second zygote is also a person whom we shall call Margaret. It is entirely possible that one or both of these zygotes could divide again to result in triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets etc. The same question applies as to whether one person can became two, three or more persons. When does a person become a person?

These questions might be difficult enough but now it becomes even more complex. Sometimes two eggs are fertilized to form non-identical twins. Once again, let us call them Mary and Margaret. Rarely the two zygotes merge together again to form a two celled embryo. This is called a chimera. Who is this new embryo? Is it Mary or is it Margaret? This new embryo, this chimera, let us call it Mary, develops to term and is born. There is now no question at all that Mary is indeed a person. But here is the odd thing, some of the organs of Mary carry her genes but other organs carry the genes of her twin sister Margaret. So Margaret continues to exist within Mary or perhaps it is Mary within Margaret. Do we have two persons within a single body?

These very serious questions of person-hood arise only if we assume that the soul is infused at conception and that the brand new zygote is fully a person. Is there a more reasonable understanding? I believe there is. Personally I believe that the developing fetus becomes a person only when it is able to survive outside the womb. Sentience occurs at about the same point in the pregnancy very late in the second trimester. For this reason I am against abortion beyond the twentieth week except in very rare extreme circumstances.. Otherwise I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

Muddy the waters all you wish I will not be deterred by that tactic, abortion is murder, conception is the start of life.

 

[psalms 91]

I disagree with this "performance" definition of life. By this reasoning, when one comes under health care (they would not survive without their medication for example) they cease to be alive (or at least human). I had surgery when I was 5 and for a period of some hours was under complete life support, yet IMO I was still a human being with full human rights during that time.

And of course, while a baby might live after 20 weeks of gestation, he/she might be a teenager before they can survive on their own (heck, a LOT of 25 year olds seem unable to live on their own, lol). But I consider them alive and fully human. They may not be able to live unassisted but that per se doesn't mean they are dead or some other species. They are HUMANS with LIFE who need our care and protection, not killing.


That's my "take"


- Josiah

My take comes from the bible as well as common sense. The bible says that God knows us from before we are in the womb

 

[Josiah]

Here's my (perhaps strict) spin.....

Since I was pretty young, I knew that sex is the means of human reproduction... that this very adult activity can result in a baby. Now, I realize that sex is one _____ of a lot of fun, and that humans are one of two species that have sex 'cuz it is one ____ of a lot of fun (Dolphins being the other) but perhaps unlike dolphins, we know it's not just one _____ of a lot of fun but it's also how babies are made; ahha, a baby could result from this. I honestly think ALL humans (past puberty at least) KNOW this. No one is fooling anyone.


Now, I know that in very modern times, birth control methods have been invented. And some of these work pretty well! If used perfectly, really well. But NONE of them is perfect, NONE of them work all the time. Oh, God has a sense of humor. Every sex act may have only a 1% chance of resulting in the baby, but that means the FIRST time is just as likely to result in a baby as the thousandth time. Every homo sapiens past puberty knows this (most well before that). Ahha.


Sex is perhaps THE most adult activity there is. In part because the RESPONSIBILITY that goes with it is enormous! A baby can result..... and babies take a LOT (and I mean a whole whale of a LOT) of care.... for a VERY long time! There are a host of other emotional and other "attachments" too.


Here's the deal: If you CHOOSE to have sex, you choose to accept the responsibilities that go with it - as an adult. And yes, there's at least a 1% chance this is going to result in a baby (and it's JUST as likely to result in such the first time as the thousandth). CHOOSE this very adult activity of sex, and you have CHOSEN to accept the responsibility of being a parent (and EVERYTHING that goes with that, including six million diapers and the "terrible twos" and drama queen teen girls and teen boys that will eat you out of house and home and 5 years of college and cars and weddings and visits with the principle). If one won't chose responsibility, they shouldn't choose sex. Kinda simple. Sorta obvious. If you can't BE an adult, don't act as if you can. If you want/need to say "no" to responsibility, say "no" to sex. It ain't complicated. You won't explode (in spite of what some tell you). And if the boy loves you, he won't dump you. Honest. And if the girl is worthy of your love, she'll act like an adult.


Yeah.... having a baby can be inconvenient and expensive. DUH!!!!!!!!! Having a baby may interfere with your life. DUH!!!!!!!!! If you can't handle that, make your choice: In the bedroom (if not well before). Choosing an abortion AFTER the sex is kind of like saying "I choose retroactively not to drive" AFTER you broad-sided the cop car. Worse..... it's making the baby suffer for the parents gross irresponsibility and immaturity. If one thinks parenthood is inconvenient or expensive.... okay..... I "get it"...... act accordingly. It ain't rocket science.


SORRY.


- Josiah




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