[Split] Very Liberal Christianity Abortion/Pro-Life posts

user1234

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IACOBVS said:
...no conservative should call him or herself pro-life. They're merely pro-birth. As soon as that little thing pops out, none of them want to help it have a better life. And if it happens to be convicted of killing another, they want its life snuffed out.
That's a rather broad-brushed accusation to make against an awful lot of conservatives ... And christians.

•NO conservative...?

•THEY'RE (meaning ALL?) merely pro-birth?

•NONE of them want to help? (you sure? None?)

•THEY? (again, meaning ALL?) want it's life snuffed?

I'm guessing the word should be SOME, at best,
and probably a minority at that, at least to try to avoid
extremism and unfair accusations and categorizations.

Aside from that, isn't it possible for christians and conservatives
to be both pro-life AND pro-justice, too, even if the death-penalty is
required by law as part of that justice?
 

psalms 91

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Yes it is possible and this is just another way to muddy the waters of abortion being murder
 

user1234

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Yes it is possible and this is just another way to muddy the waters of abortion being murder
Hi ...
Can you be a bit clearer? When you say 'THIS' is just another way to muddy the waters, what is the 'THIS' you are referring to? Sorry for not understanding. Thx.
 

psalms 91

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Hi ...
Can you be a bit clearer? When you say 'THIS' is just another way to muddy the waters, what is the 'THIS' you are referring to? Sorry for not understanding. Thx.
The topic is abortion, not the death penelty or social justice, these are used to make the issue a little less clear from what I see, the topic is abortion not any of the rest
 

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Tigger

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The topic is abortion, not the death penelty or social justice, these are used to make the issue a little less clear from what I see, the topic is abortion not any of the rest

I agree and when discussing abortion with one I take away their death penalty arguments by saying I'm fine with removing the death penalty bc again some innocent lives have been taken due to wrongful conviction. Its like pulling the rug out from them bc they're stuck defending the mutilation of an unborn child.
 

psalms 91

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I agree and when discussing abortion with one I take away their death penalty arguments by saying I'm fine with removing the death penalty bc again some innocent lives have been taken due to wrongful conviction. Its like pulling the rug out from them bc they're stuck defending the mutilation of an unborn child.
Yes, and I actually agree that the death penelty because of all the mistakes should be done away with. But abortion is murder pure and simple
 

Pedrito

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A request for clarification, please.

In Post #56 on Page 6, IACOBVS informed us:
Sixth, even the Law of Moses made room for abortion, and the Law was not very woman-friendly . It even demanded it in the case of a jealous husband who thought his wife had cheated on him. She had to drink some nasty, magic potion that would induce whatever she had inside her to come out ... that's an a abortion, no matter how one might try to wiggle around it.

Pedrito was unaware of that.

So Pedrito requests of IACOBVS that he provide the Scripture reference that contains that information.
 

psalms 91

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A request for clarification, please.

In Post #56 on Page 6, IACOBVS informed us:


Pedrito was unaware of that.

So Pedrito requests of IACOBVS that he provide the Scripture reference that contains that information.
It was not a magic potion but dust and dirt from the floor of the te,mple and it would make her sick, not produce an abortion
 

atpollard

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A request for clarification, please.

In Post #56 on Page 6, IACOBVS informed us:


Pedrito was unaware of that.

So Pedrito requests of IACOBVS that he provide the Scripture reference that contains that information.

Numbers 5:11-31 [NKJV]
11 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— 14 if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 ‘And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD. 17 The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 Then the priest shall stand the woman before the LORD, uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 And the priest shall put her under oath, and say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you, and if you have not gone astray to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you”— 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; 22 and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”
‘Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”
23 ‘Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape them off into the bitter water. 24 And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her to become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, shall wave the offering before the LORD, and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her and become bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children.
29 ‘This is the law of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, and he becomes jealous of his wife; then he shall stand the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute all this law upon her. 31 Then the man shall be free from iniquity, but that woman shall bear her guilt.’ ”
 

user1234

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The topic is abortion, not the death penelty or social justice, these are used to make the issue a little less clear from what I see, the topic is abortion not any of the rest
Hi
Just to be clear, the OPer's initial topic was about being a liberal, then it was the OPer himself who wholesale categorized and condemned all conservatives and who also brought up the death penalty in his Post#56, pt.7

Since it was the OPer's thread, I assumed it was ok for him to bring up any topic within it, and I merely commented on his post ... I was not trying to change topics, but merely elaborate on the ones he already introduced.

Since then I believe a request was made for the thread to return to it's original OP, so I won't comment on abortion, criminal justice, or the death penalty here.
That's all ... No probs ... God bless yous.
 

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That's a rather broad-brushed accusation to make against an awful lot of conservatives ... And christians.
Right. I think there are major Christian traditions (e.g. Catholics) that are pro-life consistently. However the combination of anti-abortion with Ayn Rand-ish selfishness is sufficiently visible in US politics that it's easy to see why many people might connect them. Particularly since a lot of conservative Christians seem to be supporting it with their votes.

[Note by the way that I'm not so convinced that the Bible says anything useful about the abortion debate. However I respect people who for one reason or another -- even if it's just a tradition whose basis I'm not so sure is convincing -- are consistently pro-life.]
 
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Pedrito

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Pedrito thanks atpollard for the clarification.

As Pedrito thought, it has nothing to do with abortion. It was a test for infidelity.
 

atpollard

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Right. I think there are major Christian traditions (e.g. Catholics) that are pro-life consistently. However the combination of anti-abortion with Ayn Rand-ish selfishness is sufficiently visible in US politics that it's easy to see why many people might connect them. Particularly since a lot of conservative Christians seem to be supporting it with their votes.

[Note by the way that I'm not so convinced that the Bible says anything useful about the abortion debate. However I respect people who for one reason or another -- even if it's just a tradition whose basis I'm not so sure is convincing -- are consistently pro-life.]

I am somewhat confused.
How is it "selfish" to be opposed to the mutilation of an unborn person because your fornication resulted in an inconvenient pregnancy?
What makes "murder on demand" unselfish?

The reality is that before the abortion, the unborn baby had a heart beat and a pulse and after the abortion it did not. It was a living being, and then it was dead. Everything else is just justification. Those are the incontrovertible facts.
 
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hedrick

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I am somewhat confused.
How it it "selfish" to be opposed to the mutilation of an unborn person because your fornication resulted in an inconvenient pregnancy?
What makes "murder on demand" unselfish?
That's not what I meant. I meant that it is common in today's world to see anti-abortion positions combined with positions that aren't supportive of children after they're born. I differ from the OP in that I don't think this is universal. It's just particularly visible in today's American politics.
 

user1234

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That's not what I meant. I meant that it is common in today's world to see anti-abortion positions combined with positions that aren't supportive of children after they're born. I differ from the OP in that I don't think this is universal. It's just particularly visible in today's American politics.
I agree with post #87 (requoted below) but thanks for this clarification.

It might seem to be that conservatives dont support children, but like you said, that's visibly/politically.
The problem with the assessment could (in part) be due to the fact that as a general rule, conservatives/christians dont side with or rely upon government as much as liberals, and it's usually the govt/media (left?) that gathers and reports the numbers, whereas conservatives/christians may be doing their support in other ways, more privately and more off the radar of the public/govt/media eye.

I am somewhat confused.
How it it "selfish" to be opposed to the mutilation of an unborn person because your fornication resulted in an inconvenient pregnancy?
What makes "murder on demand" unselfish?

The reality is that before the abortion, the unborn baby had a heart beat and a pulse and after the abortion it did not. It was a living being, and then it was dead. Everything else is just justification. Those are the incontrovertible facts.
Yes, agreed. And in general, christians (saved, bible-believing, etc.) tend to be conservative and pro-life based upon their faith in God/Jesusanc resultant worldview.
Liberals for the most part are the ones that turn a blind eye to the facts of the beating heart (and other things, such as the ability to experience joy, pain, etc.) either by hard-hearted choice or out of necessity to maintain their political/world view, which often stems from a lack of belief in the CreatorGod and Saviour and eternal life or consequences.
 

Tigger

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The Pregnancy care center is almost exclusively supported by pro-lifers but still I see this argument as another attempt to get the focus off of the fact the abortion is the mutilation of an unborn child.
 

Lamb

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This thread contains the split posts from the Very Liberal Christianity thread. Now that thread can remain on topic and this conversation can keep going.
 

Josiah

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As slavery was the huge moral/political issue for some 200 years in the USA, abortion has become such in our time.


I'm solidly pro-life. It is my top issue in voting and it is a moral position about which I'm passionate.



My primary reasons are two:


1. Human rights. My sister (who has a Ph.D. in biology and does biological research as her vocation) has stressed to me that biologically, it is absurd to argue that the pre-born baby is not a human. She stresses that nothing happens to the DNA as the last bit of the toes exits the birth canal: in terms of species, what is AFTER the exit of the last toe is no different that what was before the crown of the baby's head began appearing outside that canal. While precise definitions of what is and is not "life" and is and is not "human" are not as precise as we'd all like, however we BIOLOGICALLY define such, birth has nothing to do with it. I believe that all humans are endowed with inalienable HUMAN rights simply as a function of they being HUMAN - and chief among these is life (the ONLY right that ultimately matters..... take that away and no other "right" matters at all, applies at all). Now, we can have discussions of self defense, just war, even capitol punishment (and I have related opinions there) but these are all extreme cases usually related to some guilt or physical threat presented by the one permitted to be murdered, and there seems to be consensus that HUMANS are being murdered in these cases. I think we purposely evade this by insisting that the unborn baby is not 100% a "PERSON" ( an argument taken hook, line and sinker from the pro-slavery position where Blacks were 2/3's a person) or when we people talk about the baby as a parasite or fully dependent - all that simply evades the issue that here is a HUMAN - the same species as we. IF we can deprive a whole class, an entire category of living HUMANS - regardless of their guilt or bad behavior or physical threat - deprive them without any due process - deprive them of the most important, most fundamental, most necessary of all HUMAN rights - life - then the most gross injustice has been made and all other innocent humans are threated and weakened.


2. Defending the Weak. The Bible says we are to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, we are to defend those who cannot defend themselves, we are to be caretakers of the weak. Men - in particular - have often identified themselves strongly with this defender and providing role..... women - in particular - have seen motherhood as one of providing and defending role. We can see some of this even among animals. I reject the premise that those with political power may THEREFORE, as a FUNCTION of that power, trample on the rights, the humanity, the life of those less powerful or less independent simply as a function of their superior power to do so. One does not have some "right" to choose to murder simply because one has the political power to do it with impunity, to get away with it because other powerful ones will allow it. Remember what the powerful did in the perservation 0f slavery, in their "pro choice" political point that gave NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER to the one impacted: the Black man/woman. We must not fall to the morality that whatever those with sufficient power do to others is "moral" simply because they have the power to do it - and get away with it. Power does not equal moral. Indeed, it is a sad consequence of sin that the weak, the less-powerful are often trampled on by the more-powerful - and thus NEED our protection, our voice, our intervention. I realize this point makes a few women very uncomfortable.... since nearly the beginning of time, THEY were often the victims of this.... THEY were the weak, the helpless, the powerless and thus the victims of horrible things. Fortunately, very very recently, they have gained some power as the powerful (that's us white, middle class, property owning MEN) granted such. But IMO, because of that history, they ABOVE ALL, should be the MOST pro-life, the MOST sensitive to standing up for those with less power against those with more, they should be the LEAST 'pro-choice' (the powerful choose.... the powerless suffer). And indeed, I think women ARE a bit less "pro-choice" than men (although it's pretty close). We need laws, etc. to protect the weak from the strong, to permit civilization (so that it's not the animal "survival of the fittest", the prevailing of the more powerful over the less so).



Now, I realize...... there are enormous human, personal issues here. I realize discovering one is now the mother of a baby can be unplanned, unwelcomed - and a genuine crisis. And while most sex is consensual (and thus all know a baby can result), it's not always. And I realize that motherhood (before and after birth) has ENORMOUS implications - physically, socially, emotionally; indeed in every way possible - and that can be very difficult. Parenthood (mother and father) are perhaps the biggest and most difficult roles humans ever have. I don't gloss over that. I realize, too, that pregnancy and giving birth can be physically dangerous and are enormous physical efforts (and that - technically, that baby is a "parasite" - a LOT of parents will say that parasite continues for at least 20 years! Maybe a lot longer, lol, not to minimize the reality here). I'm not at all unmoved by those realities. And as I mentioned, I'm at least open to discussions when the baby is a real threat to the physical life of the other and perhaps also in cases of rape and incest. But, the simple reality is: sex tends to eventually result in a baby - and all (over the age of 8 at least - know that), all that is part of the responsibility to which we must rise. AND (most importantly), it means that we - as family and as society - need to "be there" for mothers (and fathers) struggling. IMO, we have far, far too much sense of abandoning parents. We need to "be there" as family, friends, community - emotionally, medically and physically (this is what motivated me so strongly in my years working with abortion alternative centers).



Abortion is NOT rare (there are about 1.3 MILLION abortions every year in just the USA - roughly one-fourth of pregnancies end with this purposeful destruction of the baby). There are almost ONE HUNDRED TIMES more deaths by abortion than all other forms of murder combined.

Abortion is NOT safe (about one-fourth of babies are killed by this, some 1.3 MILLION every year just in the USA today) Among other health consequences, some mothers are left unable to conceive by this.

Abortion is NOT done primarily because of the health or rape or incest or any of the other "cause" so often discussed (those together account for under 2% of abortions), it's simply the preferred form of birth control for many.



While I accept the libertarian concept of "choice", the pro-choice crowd is radically and profoundly ANTI-choice, they radically hold that the one most impacted by the "choice" have no choice whatsoever, no consideration whatsoever, none at all; this argument comes hook-line-sinker from the "pro-choice" stance in the slavery debate, where rich white men claimed THEY had a choice of whether to own a slave but the African had NO choice at all, none whatsoever. Sure, there is a choice but it's made in the bedroom.





- Josiah



.
 
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psalms 91

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Except that when a couple dearly wants a child only to find at about 8 months in there are problems so severe that continuing the pregnancy would mean a high chance neither mother nor baby would survive the situation is hard enough for them without people throwing words like "murder" around.

I agree entirely that abortion as effectively a fallback form of contraception shouldn't be allowed but also believe that there are some situations where it's truly necessary.
When you have a viable human life and abiort(kill it) I cant think of any other word than murder, I would suggest that a couple in that situation either trust God or let the child be adopted rather than murder
 
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