[Split] Very Liberal Christianity Abortion/Pro-Life posts

[MoreCoffee]

Quite a few very liberal Christians oppose abortion.

 

[psalms 91]

As should all christians

 

[MoreCoffee]

As should all christians

I am inclined to agree but not all do.

 

[IACOBVS]

The modern right wing gets Christians to vote against everything Jesus talked about by talking about abortion, which Jesus never talked about. -- John Fugelsang.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The modern right wing gets Christians to vote against everything Jesus talked about by talking about abortion, which Jesus never talked about. -- John Fugelsang.

Never heard of the chap you quoted. But the idea is about right.

 

[JRT]

I am a liberal Christian and I have never met one of my kind that was not pro-life. However, many Christians, not just the liberal ones, recognize that there are circumstances that make this very painful decision necessary. I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

 

[MoreCoffee]

... we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

It is true that poverty is a primary reason for many abortions. But poverty is a relative thing in the west. Some in the west who seek and obtain abortions do so because of what they perceive as insurmountable problems with having a child because of their goals (or the couple's goals) of home ownership, career, education. Such reasons are usually not trivial but are they a good reason to end a life?

 

[psalms 91]

I am a liberal Christian and I have never met one of my kind that was not pro-life. However, many Christians, not just the liberal ones, recognize that there are circumstances that make this very painful decision necessary. I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. In conclusion, we should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

Problem is that it was a choice to conceive usually and murder is not the answer to a poor choice.

 

[tango]

Problem is that it was a choice to conceive usually and murder is not the answer to a poor choice.

Except that when a couple dearly wants a child only to find at about 8 months in there are problems so severe that continuing the pregnancy would mean a high chance neither mother nor baby would survive the situation is hard enough for them without people throwing words like "murder" around.

I agree entirely that abortion as effectively a fallback form of contraception shouldn't be allowed but also believe that there are some situations where it's truly necessary.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Except that when a couple dearly wants a child only to find at about 8 months in there are problems so severe that continuing the pregnancy would mean a high chance neither mother nor baby would survive the situation is hard enough for them without people throwing words like "murder" around.

I agree entirely that abortion as effectively a fallback form of contraception shouldn't be allowed but also believe that there are some situations where it's truly necessary.

Do you think that everybody who seeks an abortion does so because both mother and child would die if the pregnancy continued?

 

[psalms 91]

Except that when a couple dearly wants a child only to find at about 8 months in there are problems so severe that continuing the pregnancy would mean a high chance neither mother nor baby would survive the situation is hard enough for them without people throwing words like "murder" around.

I agree entirely that abortion as effectively a fallback form of contraception shouldn't be allowed but also believe that there are some situations where it's truly necessary.

I believe that God is in control and our faith and trust should be in him. There are many stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and had a normal baby much to the doctors surprise. And no I can see a situation where the baby should be given up for adoption but not abortion

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe that God is in control and our faith and trust should be in him. There are many stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and had a normal baby much to the doctors surprise. And no I can see a situation where the baby should be given up for adoption but not abortion

Catholics have been saying this for a very long time.

 

[Lamb]

I believe that God is in control and our faith and trust should be in him. There are many stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and had a normal baby much to the doctors surprise. And no I can see a situation where the baby should be given up for adoption but not abortion

I've heard a lot of similar stories!!

I just read on the Center for Disease Control site that there are 700 deaths in the United States related to pregnancy or delivery. Out of all the women in the United States that's a relatively small number and we don't know the facts behind those deaths except for what was just stated as a basic.

 

[tango]

Do you think that everybody who seeks an abortion does so because both mother and child would die if the pregnancy continued?

I don't think I said anything that could remotely be taken to indicate I think that?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't think I said anything that could remotely be taken to indicate I think that?

Oh, good.

 

[Josiah]

http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/8

 

[tango]

I believe that God is in control and our faith and trust should be in him. There are many stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and had a normal baby much to the doctors surprise. And no I can see a situation where the baby should be given up for adoption but not abortion

This sort of comment is all well and good but only works if it's applied consistently. If you truly do apply the "faith and trust in God alone" then you are one of very few who can truly say that. The trouble is that as soon as you go to the doctor you aren't trusting in God the way the statement suggests you should. As soon as you accept a job to earn a salary you aren't trusting in God to provide. If you lock your doors at night you aren't trusting in God to protect. Yes, there are stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and astounded doctors, there are also stories of mothers who died in childbirth. If the doctor tells you that the pregnancy that you and your wife so desperately wanted is almost certain to kill your wife if it isn't terminated, I think most people would opt for the late termination however badly they wanted the child. This kind of situation is such a far cry from the girl who hops into bed with anyone with a pulse and visits the abortion clinic any time her contraception lets her down that they aren't even remotely comparable.

The problem that arises is that if we do ever reach a simplistic "abortion is illegal, period" situation then cases like the one I mentioned end up in an impossible situation, where a doctor is required to either kill the unborn by active steps or kill the living mother by inaction. If abortion is legal in cases where continuing the pregnancy endangers the mother's life it starts a slippery slope whereby "life endangering" can be interpreted in more and more permissive ways until we end up in a situation where someone ends up claiming that having a baby would be really inconvenient right now and, you know, they'd struggle to continue to work with a young baby and don't know how they'd cope and it would be really stressful and all that, and before long the unborn is done away with to protect the mother's emotional well-being.

Of course given the simple reality that, biologically speaking at least, a man can simply walk away and wash his hands of the situation while the woman is stuck with the consequences for months to come turns the whole issue into a politically charged matter of gender equality, which generates a whole load of its own heat.

 

[psalms 91]

This sort of comment is all well and good but only works if it's applied consistently. If you truly do apply the "faith and trust in God alone" then you are one of very few who can truly say that. The trouble is that as soon as you go to the doctor you aren't trusting in God the way the statement suggests you should. As soon as you accept a job to earn a salary you aren't trusting in God to provide. If you lock your doors at night you aren't trusting in God to protect. Yes, there are stories of people who have continued a pregnancy and astounded doctors, there are also stories of mothers who died in childbirth. If the doctor tells you that the pregnancy that you and your wife so desperately wanted is almost certain to kill your wife if it isn't terminated, I think most people would opt for the late termination however badly they wanted the child. This kind of situation is such a far cry from the girl who hops into bed with anyone with a pulse and visits the abortion clinic any time her contraception lets her down that they aren't even remotely comparable.

The problem that arises is that if we do ever reach a simplistic "abortion is illegal, period" situation then cases like the one I mentioned end up in an impossible situation, where a doctor is required to either kill the unborn by active steps or kill the living mother by inaction. If abortion is legal in cases where continuing the pregnancy endangers the mother's life it starts a slippery slope whereby "life endangering" can be interpreted in more and more permissive ways until we end up in a situation where someone ends up claiming that having a baby would be really inconvenient right now and, you know, they'd struggle to continue to work with a young baby and don't know how they'd cope and it would be really stressful and all that, and before long the unborn is done away with to protect the mother's emotional well-being.

Of course given the simple reality that, biologically speaking at least, a man can simply walk away and wash his hands of the situation while the woman is stuck with the consequences for months to come turns the whole issue into a politically charged matter of gender equality, which generates a whole load of its own heat.

Lets simplify it, murder is murder and as for the rest you are right about the doctor although I see the doctor as being there intil we reach a point in our faith walk to be able to trust God and stand on faith. Work we are commanded to do and it is God who enables us to do so and opens the doors for whatever opportunities come our way so I dont see worjk as a lack of faith unless of course you are placing your trust in a paycheck.

 

[IACOBVS]

Yikes! I was merely looking for like-minded, liberal Christians here, and now this has turned into an abortion discussion/debate. It was as if I had thrown bloody, red meat into a pen of starving dogs.

So, since some of you want to know, this is my take on abortion.

First, I do not believe that it is murder, nor do I believe that the Bible says that it is ... in fact, it doesn't ... nowhere. Jesus never even mentioned it, and it was a well-known thing, even then.

Second, I believe that it should be rarely performed, but safely and legally.

Third, it should be totally up to the poor woman having to make the decision ... maybe that should have been first. I'm sorry ... but I'm too lazy to edit this at the moment.

Fourth, those of you who are using the "I knew you before you were in your mother's womb, etc." and such verses are taking them out of context. Those are referring to God's omniscience, not abortion ... just as he is aware of every sparrow that falls; that doesn't make sparrows people, and we aren't murderers if we kill one. And no, God is not busy knitting or forming each one of us in our mother's womb ... at least I hope not, because he's done a crappy job of it in some cases if that's what he's been up to all this time. Metaphor, people, metaphor ... or poetic license, or whatever, but trust me, he's not in there with his wee knitting needles.

Fifth, according to Genesis, God breathed into Adam and he became a living human/soul. He wasn't one until he breathed.

Sixth, even the Law of Moses made room for abortion, and the Law was not very woman-friendly . It even demanded it in the case of a jealous husband who thought his wife had cheated on him. She had to drink some nasty, magic potion that would induce whatever she had inside her to come out ... that's an a abortion, no matter how one might try to wiggle around it.

Seventh, no conservative should call him or herself pro-life. They're merely pro-birth. As soon as that little thing pops out, none of them want to help it have a better life. And if it happens to be convicted of killing another, they want its life snuffed out.

Eight, ugh! I'm done for now.

And I was just looking for like-minded, sweet people. And it turned into this. Sadness.

 

[Josiah]

ABORTION: Here's a thread where this topic may be discussed: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?2256-Why-I-m-Pro-Life

OPENING POST: I think it was quickly determined that MOST of the active posters at this website tend to be theologically and socially fairly conservative, but that CH and the folks here are welcoming of other views. Indeed, I appreciate those who bring a different perspective to the community (as long as ALL abide by the rules and converse with respect, including me).



Pax Christi



- Josiah