"Speaking in Tongues"

[Josiah]

Some sincere questions.....


1. According to the words in the New Testament, what exactly IS this? Do we have an exact definition, description so that we can determine what is and is not "speaking in tongues?" How specifically are we told to recognize what it is and is not? Is there ONE speaking in tongues or endless varieties of this? Is "speaking in tongues" today thought to be the same or different from that mentioned in the Bible?


2. People (sincerely, I believe) claim to "speak in tongues." I've met several. How do we know that what they are doing IS exactly what people where doing 2000 years ago which they called "speaking in tongues?" I'm NOT asking if they are DOING something (they are, IMO).... I'm NOT asking if it's a spiritually moving thing for them (I'm sure it is)..... I'm NOT asking if they are sincere (I'm sure they are), I'm asking how do we KNOW - from the verbatim words found in the NT - that what they are doing IS specifically "speaking in tongues" as the NT speaks of it?


3. When I was a teen, a good friend of mine had a mother who was a self-proclaimed and self-ordained Apostle, Prophet, Bishop, Faith Healer and Pastor. She also claimed she had numerous gifts - including speaking in tongues and interpretation thereof. (BTW, I was still on her email list as of a year or so ago.... I got regular updates on revelations she got directly from God; always quite interesting: another matter for another thread). I asked her daughter these two questions and she had no reply, but when she asked me if I speak in tongues, I told her I'm not sure I have any way to know. She told me to say a sentence. "Praise precious Jesus Prince of Peace." Say it with my heart and my mouth. Fast. Faster. Faster still! And if I did - with all my heart..... with great speed.... the Holy Spirit would fall upon me and would give me the Gift of Tongues and I'd just KNOW that I have it. I tried it. It was very hard to do without stumbling - and eventually, that's what I did. Was I speaking in tongues? How do I know? How do you know?


4. What is it's purpose in the church? According to the Bible and/or proponents?



Thanks!!!!



- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

A few questions. Cannot adress them all.
Refer the recorded testimony of two people who were present at the izuzu street mission.
They testify that people spoke out in tongues.."other languages" and were heard and understood by russians,chinese and japanese people whl had come to the meetings..who as a result,believed and got saved..
While in contrast paul warns against to many speakinh out in tongues at one time as ir would make a confusing babble ..so there are many tongues and not all of them are spoken for the benifit of the hearer.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A few questions. Cannot adress them all.
Refer the recorded testimony of two people who were present at the Azusa street mission.
They testify that people spoke out in tongues.."other languages" and were heard and understood by Russians,Chinese and Japanese people who had come to the meetings..who as a result,believed and got saved..
While in contrast Paul warns against to many speaking out in tongues at one time as it would make a confusing babble ..so there are many tongues and not all of them are spoken for the benefit of the hearer.

Testimonies about what other people allegedly heard and understood would not be acceptable in a court of law and ought not be accepted as proof of a claim in this thread. It is also worth noting that when the Azusa Street Mission sent out missionaries to far off lands without training them to speak and read/write in the languages of the far off lands their missionaries could neither speak nor understand the local languages. The facts of mission work show that people who claim to have a gift of speaking in tongues do not successfully bypass the need to learn the languages of the places to which they are sent. The evidence is not in favour of the tongues from Azusa street or any related current tongues being real human languages.

 

[Alithis]

Testimonies about what other people allegedly heard and understood would not be acceptable in a court of law and ought not be accepted as proof of a claim in this thread. It is also worth noting that when the Azusa Street Mission sent out missionaries to far off lands without training them to speak and read/write in the languages of the far off lands their missionaries could neither speak nor understand the local languages. The facts of mission work show that people who claim to have a gift of speaking in tongues do not successfully bypass the need to learn the languages of the places to which they are sent. The evidence is not in favour of the tongues from Azusa street or any related current tongues being real human languages.

ok you do realize you just discredited the bible by default ? it is after all a testimony about what other people allegedly heard ....-

plus you missed the point that i was alluding to .. that some manifestations of tongues may not be the tongues of the scripture . something iv never been willing in the past to consider .and still am not keen to really .

 

[MoreCoffee]

ok you do realize you just discredited the bible by default ? it is after all a testimony about what other people allegedly heard ....-

plus you missed the point that i was alluding to .. that some manifestations of tongues may not be the tongues of the scripture . something i've never been willing in the past to consider .and still am not keen to really .

In a court of law many passages of holy scripture would not be accepted as evidence but that is irrelevant anyway. It is claims made by people today about their alleged gift of a tongue or tongues from God. Clearly the claims made at Azusa street were not substantiated and when they themselves put them to the test the gifted persons failed.

 

[Brighten04]

Some sincere questions.....


1. According to the words in the New Testament, what exactly IS this? Do we have an exact definition, description so that we can determine what is and is not "speaking in tongues?" How specifically are we told to recognize what it is and is not? Is there ONE speaking in tongues or endless varieties of this? Is "speaking in tongues" today thought to be the same or different from that mentioned in the Bible?


2. People (sincerely, I believe) claim to "speak in tongues." I've met several. How do we know that what they are doing IS exactly what people where doing 2000 years ago which they called "speaking in tongues?" I'm NOT asking if they are DOING something (they are, IMO).... I'm NOT asking if it's a spiritually moving thing for them (I'm sure it is)..... I'm NOT asking if they are sincere (I'm sure they are), I'm asking how do we KNOW - from the verbatim words found in the NT - that what they are doing IS specifically "speaking in tongues" as the NT speaks of it?


3. When I was a teen, a good friend of mine had a mother who was a self-proclaimed and self-ordained Apostle, Prophet, Bishop, Faith Healer and Pastor. She also claimed she had numerous gifts - including speaking in tongues and interpretation thereof. (BTW, I was still on her email list as of a year or so ago.... I got regular updates on revelations she got directly from God; always quite interesting: another matter for another thread). I asked her daughter these two questions and she had no reply, but when she asked me if I speak in tongues, I told her I'm not sure I have any way to know. She told me to say a sentence. "Praise precious Jesus Prince of Peace." Say it with my heart and my mouth. Fast. Faster. Faster still! And if I did - with all my heart..... with great speed.... the Holy Spirit would fall upon me and would give me the Gift of Tongues and I'd just KNOW that I have it. I tried it. It was very hard to do without stumbling - and eventually, that's what I did. Was I speaking in tongues? How do I know? How do you know?


4. What is it's purpose in the church? According to the Bible and/or proponents?



Thanks!!!!



- Josiah

Josiah, I believe your questions are really sincere. And, I am glad you asked them. But, I hesitate to share in open forum because there are so many people who do not believe. So look for my pm. People get inoculated against the Holy Spirit causing hardening of the heart toward Him, and He wants so much to bless with supernatural gifts. But before I compose my pm, I need to know something. Do you know who you are? And do you know how you were put together by our Father? These two questions I ask because as you are a great intellectual person, and logic is very important to you, so my answers have to be logical to you.

 

[Full O Beans]

THE GIFT OF TONGUES AND PRAYER LANGUAGE

There is a difference between the Gift of Tongues and the Prayer Language:

The gift of tongues is a “MINISTRY GIFT”---given to an individual for the primary purpose of encouraging others. This gift must always be accompanied by the Gift of Interpretation. (1 Cor 14:13, 28) It manifests in worship services with a distinct sound, a clear call, evident to everyone in the whole Body that it IS a message FROM God TO us. These gifts of tongues and interpretation are the equivalent of prophecy. (1 Cor 14:5)

Prayer Language is a “GRACE GIFT”---not one that is utilized to deliver messages from God to the Church. It is utilized by the Holy Spirit to benefit the individual believer and deliver messages from the spirit of man to the heart of God. (1 Cor 14:4/ Jude 20/ Isaiah 28:11-12)

We do not all have the ministry gift of tongues, as in 1 Cor 12: 29-30, but we all have the grace gift within us to pray in tongues—but as with all things that God blesses us with, we want to CHOOSE to avail ourselves of that gift which he has made available to us and YIELD our vocal chords to those sounds welling up from our spirits!

PRAYING IN TONGUES:

1) Evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Acts 2:4 / Acts 9:10-12 / Acts 17 along with 1 Cor 14:18 /
Acts 10:44-46 / Acts 19: 1-6

2) Refreshes and edifies the believer—draws up out of the wells of Salvation!: Isaiah 12:3 / Isaiah 28:11-
12 / John 4:14 / John 7: 37-38 / Luke 6:45 / Heb 2:4

3) Helps us to pray for that which is unrevealed (mysteries):

--God’s way of “bubbling up” answers into our souls: 1 Cor 14:2 / 1 Cor 14:14
--unknown needs: Proverbs 18:21 / Mark 11:23-24 / Romans 8:26-27

4) Adds new dimension to worship: 1Cor 14:15
--spiritual songs—singing in tongues!

5) Builds faith: Jude 1:20

6) I believe that it is also an effective weapon that is used against the evil one, as he is confounded by the heavenly language.

 

[Full O Beans]

Public Gift of Tongues
Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5)
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5)
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5)
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Personal Prayer Tongues
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2)
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28)
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4)
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46; 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians (Mark 16:17; 1 Corinthians 14:5; Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20 ).

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's a layer or two of theology on top of 1 Corinthians 14 when Charismatic folk explain it. The passage does not mention "personal prayer tongues" and it uses "tongues" as equivalent to languages but the explanation offered by Charismatic folk is of something quite unlike any language known on Earth.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I believe your questions are really sincere. And, I am glad you asked them. But, I hesitate to share in open forum because there are so many people who do not believe.

Friend, this thread has nothing to do with what anyone "believes." I think I stated - boldly - that I am CERTAIN those who claim to do "this" are sincere, honest people. I reject any notion of deception. That's not - at all - the issue. I'm also not address this solely to those who might be considered "for" or "against" since this thread is not a "for" or "against" thread. It's a thread to understand.

I'm simply and only trying to get a handle on the practice. My questions are sincere. And I think very appropriate.

Perhaps we can address these questions one at the time, if that's easier.


I'd prefer you don't reply to the thread with a PM, unless you authorize me to copy/paste it to this thread. This is a discussion forum and I'm looking for contributions from several. IMO, there's no valuable reason to hide one's view. IMO, if you don't think it wise to contribute to this discussion, then perhaps you should consider not contributing to this discussion?




Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Public Gift of Tongues
Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5)
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5)
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5)
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Personal Prayer Tongues
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2)
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28)
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4)
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46; 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians (Mark 16:17; 1 Corinthians 14:5; Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20 ).

So, you are responding to the question of whether there is ONE speaking in tongues (by insisting there is not).

Any input on all the other questions?

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5)

The verse you reference actually completely contradicts your point.

Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5)

Is the verse you reference actually saying the opposite?

A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22)

How so?


And I think maybe you've jumped way ahead. You are speaking to "it" without defining what "it" is. We probably need to address question # 1.

And all the references you give are to something done 2000 years ago. Do you have a view on how we know what people all "this" today is what these verses are addressing?



Thank you!


- Josiah

 

[Full O Beans]

If you choose to disbelieve or dismiss scripture, that is up to you.

 

[Brighten04]

Friend, this thread has nothing to do with what anyone "believes." I think I stated - boldly - that I am CERTAIN those who claim to do "this" are sincere, honest people. I reject any notion of deception. That's not - at all - the issue. I'm also not address this solely to those who might be considered "for" or "against" since this thread is not a "for" or "against" thread. It's a thread to understand.

I'm simply and only trying to get a handle on the practice. My questions are sincere. And I think very appropriate.

Perhaps we can address these questions one at the time, if that's easier.


I'd prefer you don't reply to the thread with a PM, unless you authorize me to copy/paste it to this thread. This is a discussion forum and I'm looking for contributions from several. IMO, there's no valuable reason to hide one's view. IMO, if you don't think it wise to contribute to this discussion, then perhaps you should consider not contributing to this discussion?




Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah

OK great! then Look at what sister FullofBeans wrote. That is all you need to understand it.

 

[Josiah]

If you choose to disbelieve or dismiss scripture, that is up to you.

This is a discussion. Of 4 questions. It has nothing to do with what one believes. It's a thread to address those 4 questions.

I think you contributed by noting there is not ONE form of "this" (whatever "this" is or was - you didn't address that). Okay. Your view is there is or was a plurality of "this." Got it. We'll see if any views differently.

 

[Josiah]

It manifests in worship services with a distinct sound, a clear call, evident to everyone in the whole Body that it IS a message FROM God TO us.

Could you please give this "distinct sound?" Perhaps there is a link to something online where we can all hear this very "distinct sound?" Since it is distinct, there ergo is no other sound like it or that can be confused with it. Could you supply a link here so we can all hear it? And note that it is distinct - no other sound is like it?

It is "evident to ALL." Okay. Again, I think what would help is to give us all a sound clip. Since it is "evident to all" we'll then all agree that's what it is.

That would be MOST helpful to the issue of the first (and second) questions.

These gifts of tongues and interpretation are the equivalent of prophecy. (1 Cor 14:5)

Actually, that verse says the opposite.




Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Full O Beans]

You don't need any "sound clips". Spiritual discernment is all that is necessary---and one's openness to Holy Spirit.

 

[Josiah]

.

It manifests with a distinct sound, a clear call, evident to everyone in the whole Body

You don't need any "sound clips".

How else can we all hear this "distinctive sound" that upon hearing it we will all immediately recognize it? It's the "distinctive sound" that is heard that is the varification and distinction, you stressed.

So, just put a link to the sound clip of this distinctive, immediately by all recognized sound. I've not heard this sound. Would you please provide a sound clip to this?



Thanks!


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

I don't know, but, maybe this will help you understand speaking in tongues a tiny bit better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZbQBajYnEc

 

[Full O Beans]

.







How else can we all hear this "distinctive sound" that upon hearing it we will all immediately recognize it? It's the "distinctive sound" that is heard that is the varification and distinction, you stressed.

So, just put a link to the sound clip of this distinctive, immediately by all recognized sound. I've not heard this sound. Would you please provide a sound clip to this?



Thanks!


- Josiah

You will hear and know when Holy Spirit touches you. He will not submit to the scrutiny of those who seek to dismiss Him. He, like a gentle dove, is grieved by that harshness, and is put to flight by it.

 

[Josiah]

I don't know, but, maybe this will help you understand speaking in tongues a tiny bit better.

So far, we've had one person who insists that "this" provides a "distinct" sound (unlike any other) that is immediately evident as "this" among all.

If that's true, as one has insisted, then it would be a GREAT starting point in our discussion to just provide the sound clip of that "distinctive" sound that is immediately evident to all as "this."

Do you have a link to that sound clip? I'll "google" it - maybe I can find it.



Thank you!


- Josiah