Should Teachings be Accountable?

[Josiah]

'

A fundamental discussion ......


RELATIVISM.


This came into Christianity with the Enlightenment and has become very, very popular. It is the core value of most "Christian" Internet forums.


The fundamental affirmation of relativism is that all we have are OPINIONS, human OPINIONS. Nothing more (nothing less). No one knows which (if any) is true. Some hold that it doesn't matter which is true in some objective sense, only what is true to YOU (felt by you at this moment) and what works for YOU (relativism and pragmatism often joined these days), but relativism in its most extreme form claims that there is no such thing as true (and thus false) in some universal, objective sense.

Those with the core value of relativism seek OPINIONS. Individual, personal OPINIONS. All protected from those who think one opinion is any better or has any more worth than any other. Someone has the opinion that President Trump has a low IQ just holds that view (it absolutely doesn't matter if Trump does or not) One holds that the Earth is flat and square and small, that's his OPINION. We're all free to have our OWN opinions. And all of them are equally valid. And you can accept that President Trump has an IQ of 75 if that's what you want to do, or not if that's what you want, it doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't, opinions matter.

Phil Donohue makes some statement (entirely irrelevant whether there's a bit of truth in it cuz there is no truth) then runs up to one person in the audience who says whatever their opinion is (doesn't matter) and Phil goes, "WOW! Mind blowing!" Then runs up to someone else with another opinion (doesn't matter what) and Phil goes, "WOW! Amazing!" And on and on and on it goes. All protected. Relativism.


Is this Christian? When God gave the Ten Commandments, was He just sharing his personal opinion at the moment, nothing based in truthfulness? Could Phil run up to one Hebrew at Mount Sinai and say, "What do you think of that?" And the person could say ANYTHING that pops into his brain at that moment and Phil would say, "WOW! Brilliant!" Relativism - just unaccountable opinions.



Are we to just swallow the opinions of others?

Are all opinions equal?

Does truth actually exist?

Does it matter?

To God?

Should it to us?



Should the zillions of various and often conflicting OPINIONS that may suddenly spring from the mouths of the 7.5 billion people on the planet (or 2.2 billion Christians on the planet) just all be embraced cuz they are OPINIONS?

Is it possible to be wrong?

Is falsehood just swell if it's an opinion of some guy at this moment?

Is it more loving and more Christian to empower false, harmful teachings or to correct them?

What did the Prophets in OT think about that?

What did Jesus think about that?



Were the early Christians wrong to reject Gnosticism (and thus keep the church from GREATLY growing in numbers with their welcome; the church could have doubled over night)?

Were the early Christians wrong to reject Arianism (and thus cause many to leave the church and the church shrunk mightily as a result?

Was Luther wrong to post the 95 Thesis? He should have equally welcomed ALL opinions just the same cuz truth doesn't exist or matter if it does?



Let's say Our Savior Catholic Church in San Francisco FEELS it has a problem, because it is not growing FAST ENOUGH and a few think the problem is that some of the positions of the Catholic Church are difficult to the community around them. Would it be good policy for Our Savior Catholic Church to declare that the RCC has the "right to their opinion" but it doesn't matter, and those in the community have a right to THEIR personal opinion - and whatever is your opinion is your opinion and all that matters, golly geeze. So, it eliminates all statements about sin and wrong and adultery and same-gender marriage because those are OPINIONS and no one has any "right" to insist theirs is more right than any other. Maybe Our Saviors will grow.... maybe not..... but do you think possible growth "justifies" it's dumping of truth for relativism?



Does truth matter?

Is there a LOVING and CHRISTIAN basis to accountabillity and correction? Or should Christians just welcome anything - as long as it's an opinion - because truth doesn't matter, even if it exists, just opinions? Or is it more loving, more Christian to welcome falsehood, even heresy? Was Jesus wrong to reject the opinion of the Pharisees? Was Isaiah wrong to reject the opinion of the rulers?



Is it loving and Christian to shut up or speak up?



What does Scripture say for those who think God's opinion matters more than any other:



Where there is wrong behavior:

Matthew 18:15, ff

Galatians 6:1-2

1 Timothy 5:20

James 5:20

Luke 17:3-4



Importance of sound doctrine and repudiation of relativism:

Titus 1:9

Jude 3

Philippians 1:27

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

Ephesians 4:15


Need to correct false teaching/teachers:

Titus 1:13

Titus 3:10

Jude 4

2 Timothy 4:9-10

2 Timothy 1:15

1 Timothy 1:18-20

Ephesians 5:11-14


Need to avoid false teachers:

2 John 9-11

Romans 16:17-18


Speaking the truth, in love:

Ephesians 4:15

1 Corinthians 4:1






What is your core value, Relativism or Truth?




- Josiah




.

 

[NewCreation435]

Honestly, this looks like a veiled way to complain that your not going to be allowed to debate others in another part of the forum.

Truth is truth. You already know that. No need to start a thread about it

 

[Josiah]

Truth is truth. You already know that.

Is it?

Do people - even Christians - actually affirm that? Or has relativism infected, like a cancer, and become the new norm?

I think I ask a lot of VERY IMPORTANT questions.

You can ignore them or regard them as trivial, meaningless, irrelevant opinions (for whatever reasons you have), but I think they are critical.

 

[NewCreation435]

The question itself isn't trivial. I just find it curious that it would come up now when a new area of the forum just started where debate isn't allowed.

Relativism has without a doubt infected the church in many areas. Especially when people don't tend to read and study the Word of God like they should. Maybe that is why they don't. I'm not sure

 

[davedajobauk]

How many 'questions' in a plain-wrapper ?

Should Opinions be Accountable?

No, they are 'ONLY OPINIONS'

opinion = personal conclusions / considerations then being-expressed

THEY ARE NOT INSTRUCTIONS / LAW
But they ARE additional-thoughts, on the subject at-hand, from another's perspective (?)


Having an opinion on biblical text, IS (according to you) "NOT THE WORD OF GOD"
but a view of the word's meaning
Just, another's view, of that text

Literal-reading of such texts, has caused confusions ~as to their meaning

It is NOT as if the 'subject-matter' is secular ?

dave

 

[Pedrito]

Should Teachings be Accountable?


They already are.


In God’s eyes.

 

[Cassia]

The question itself isn't trivial. I just find it curious that it would come up now when a new area of the forum just started where debate isn't allowed.

Relativism has without a doubt infected the church in many areas. Especially when people don't tend to read and study the Word of God like they should. Maybe that is why they don't. I'm not sure

What forum is that?

 

[NewCreation435]

What forum is that?

the new "Christian Discussion No Debate" section that just started on this forum.

 

[tango]

Without quoting the opening post in its entirety....

Opinions are equally valid. In my opinion mint chocolate chip ice cream is nicer than cookies and cream. That's my opinion and it's no more and no less valid than anyone else's opinion. You might prefer vanilla or butter pecan or whatever else, and your opinion is no more and no less valid than mine. There is no objective truth of which ice cream flavor is the best and therefore all we have is opinion.

Sometimes opinions are essentially value judgments even if they are veiled to an extent. The question of whether society would be better off if guns were banned is a classic example. If guns are banned we might hope that school shootings would cease, or at least be massively reduced, so there's an obvious benefit. The trouble is that it would also mean more people suffering from crime because they would have no means to protect themselves. So one side essentially says that more victims of home invasions is an acceptable price to pay in the quest to make schools safer, and the other side says that a relatively small number of children being shot in school is an acceptable price to pay for the right to protect oneself. Of course neither side words their case in quite such brutal terms, and needless to say the complexities mean it's not as trivially simple as this, but essentially those are the options. Which is better is a matter of opinion, and opinions shift at times of raw emotion - someone whose child narrowly escaped death in a school shooting yesterday will have a very different focus to someone who was saved from a brutal death because they were able to draw their firearm and kill their would-be attacker.

Sometimes we have opinions on something where an absolute truth exists but is difficult or impossible to determine. For example, when Genesis refers to God making everything in six days does it mean a literal 144 hours as we would understand it today, or six broadly comparable periods of time that might have been hundreds of thousands of years each, or something else? We might study the Scriptures, try and understand the ancient Hebrew (which doesn't appear to translate into a nice neat "In the beginning God created"), and form an opinion. We can discuss those opinions, from a perspective of trying to convince each other that our view is the correct one or trying to understand multiple viewpoints to look for strengths and weaknesses of each one. There is only one objective truth but we may never actually find out what it is.

Then there are things where core facts may not be disputed but methods may be. There is no dispute that 1Th5:21 urges us to test all things but we might discuss endlessly how best to test. Some would seek to validate everything against Scripture, others look for some kind of inner guidance. Some accept all sorts of garbage because it "didn't cause any checks in their spirit" while others reject everything out of hand if they don't understand it. People might not dispute the call to test but consider that "it feels OK to me" is all the testing they need.

And of course there are matters of clearly defined objective fact where opinions are worthless. 2 + 2 does not equal 5 however much we might like to make it happen - outside of Enron-style accounting 2+2=4 whatever our opinions, preferences etc might be that day.

 

[MennoSota]

'

A fundamental discussion ......


RELATIVISM.


This came into Christianity with the Enlightenment and has become very, very popular. It is the core value of most "Christian" Internet forums.


The fundamental affirmation of relativism is that all we have are OPINIONS, human OPINIONS. Nothing more (nothing less). No one knows which (if any) is true. Some hold that it doesn't matter which is true in some objective sense, only what is true to YOU (felt by you at this moment) and what works for YOU (relativism and pragmatism often joined these days), but relativism in its most extreme form claims that there is no such thing as true (and thus false) in some universal, objective sense.

Those with the core value of relativism seek OPINIONS. Individual, personal OPINIONS. All protected from those who think one opinion is any better or has any more worth than any other. Someone has the opinion that President Trump has a low IQ just holds that view (it absolutely doesn't matter if Trump does or not) One holds that the Earth is flat and square and small, that's his OPINION. We're all free to have our OWN opinions. And all of them are equally valid. And you can accept that President Trump has an IQ of 75 if that's what you want to do, or not if that's what you want, it doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't, opinions matter.

Phil Donohue makes some statement (entirely irrelevant whether there's a bit of truth in it cuz there is no truth) then runs up to one person in the audience who says whatever their opinion is (doesn't matter) and Phil goes, "WOW! Mind blowing!" Then runs up to someone else with another opinion (doesn't matter what) and Phil goes, "WOW! Amazing!" And on and on and on it goes. All protected. Relativism.


Is this Christian? When God gave the Ten Commandments, was He just sharing his personal opinion at the moment, nothing based in truthfulness? Could Phil run up to one Hebrew at Mount Sinai and say, "What do you think of that?" And the person could say ANYTHING that pops into his brain at that moment and Phil would say, "WOW! Brilliant!" Relativism - just unaccountable opinions.



Are we to just swallow the opinions of others?

Are all opinions equal?

Does truth actually exist?

Does it matter?

To God?

Should it to us?



Should the zillions of various and often conflicting OPINIONS that may suddenly spring from the mouths of the 7.5 billion people on the planet (or 2.2 billion Christians on the planet) just all be embraced cuz they are OPINIONS?

Is it possible to be wrong?

Is falsehood just swell if it's an opinion of some guy at this moment?

Is it more loving and more Christian to empower false, harmful teachings or to correct them?

What did the Prophets in OT think about that?

What did Jesus think about that?



Were the early Christians wrong to reject Gnosticism (and thus keep the church from GREATLY growing in numbers with their welcome; the church could have doubled over night)?

Were the early Christians wrong to reject Arianism (and thus cause many to leave the church and the church shrunk mightily as a result?

Was Luther wrong to post the 95 Thesis? He should have equally welcomed ALL opinions just the same cuz truth doesn't exist or matter if it does?



Let's say Our Savior Catholic Church in San Francisco FEELS it has a problem, because it is not growing FAST ENOUGH and a few think the problem is that some of the positions of the Catholic Church are difficult to the community around them. Would it be good policy for Our Savior Catholic Church to declare that the RCC has the "right to their opinion" but it doesn't matter, and those in the community have a right to THEIR personal opinion - and whatever is your opinion is your opinion and all that matters, golly geeze. So, it eliminates all statements about sin and wrong and adultery and same-gender marriage because those are OPINIONS and no one has any "right" to insist theirs is more right than any other. Maybe Our Saviors will grow.... maybe not..... but do you think possible growth "justifies" it's dumping of truth for relativism?



Does truth matter?

Is there a LOVING and CHRISTIAN basis to accountabillity and correction? Or should Christians just welcome anything - as long as it's an opinion - because truth doesn't matter, even if it exists, just opinions? Or is it more loving, more Christian to welcome falsehood, even heresy? Was Jesus wrong to reject the opinion of the Pharisees? Was Isaiah wrong to reject the opinion of the rulers?



Is it loving and Christian to shut up or speak up?



What does Scripture say for those who think God's opinion matters more than any other:



Where there is wrong behavior:

Matthew 18:15, ff

Galatians 6:1-2

1 Timothy 5:20

James 5:20

Luke 17:3-4



Importance of sound doctrine and repudiation of relativism:

Titus 1:9

Jude 3

Philippians 1:27

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

Ephesians 4:15


Need to correct false teaching/teachers:

Titus 1:13

Titus 3:10

Jude 4

2 Timothy 4:9-10

2 Timothy 1:15

1 Timothy 1:18-20

Ephesians 5:11-14


Need to avoid false teachers:

2 John 9-11

Romans 16:17-18


Speaking the truth, in love:

Ephesians 4:15

1 Corinthians 4:1






What is your core value, Relativism or Truth?




- Josiah




.

Far too many questions in one post to try address. What I observe from your comments is that you are specifically addressing post-modernism, which is within relativism.
The very conclusion of post-modern relativism is the very same conclusion of the preacher in Ecclesiastes when he ponders life outside of God. That conclusion is..."meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless."

 

[Josiah]

Without quoting the opening post in its entirety....

Opinions are equally valid.

The problem with relativism, as I tried to stress, is that that's ALL there is. Endless, unaccountable, equal opinions.... truth not existing or not mattering, if it does.

Sometimes we have opinions on something where an absolute truth exists but is difficult or impossible to determine

But I think you are embracing that true DOES exist - just hard to determine. We might have theories and we might discuss those - NOT because truth doesn't exist, NOT because truth wouldn't matter if it did, NOT because all opinions are equally valid and equally unaccountable.

I'd be the last one here at CH to argue against mystery! But while mystery exists, it doesn't mean truth doesn't exist - and that we are all to express whatever feeling springs from mouth - and all are equally sound, equally to be respected, equally unaccountable and immune from examination.

There is no dispute that 1Th5:21 urges us to test all things

Yup.

I listed a goodly number of biblical verses - I confess with the intended implication that God's Truth trumps endless, unaccountable, equal human opinions. They all suggests that truth exists and we are to care about that. That we are to NOT shut up but speak up. Albeit with a very important (critically important) attitude (I included that point too in my sharing of Scriptures).

but we might discuss endlessly how best to test

I completely agree! As one with a Ph.D. in physics, one who has been an author on 6 scientific papers, one who had my dissertation torn to shreads because that's what we do in science.... one who has worked for years with science.... yup, getting a handle on Truth ain't no easy task! I completely agree! And I could on about the enormous need for accountability, for examination, having commonly accepted norms and processes, etc. But MY point in the post is that truth matters. It's not just an endless number of opinions that one feels at the moment and comes from their mouth - exempt from truth, from facts, from from everything - all equal, all swell, all to be equally embraced.

In non-science (and in science a LOT, LOT more than most realize), it's HARD. And egos get involved. And "sacred cows" get involved. And even money and power get involved. I ain't saying it's easy! But I reject the modern relativism that has infected so much of modern society (and unfortunately, perhaps the church more than anything else).



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Post #4:

…a new area of the forum just started where debate isn't allowed.

Post #7:

What forum is that?

Post #8:

the new "Christian Discussion No Debate" section that just started on this forum.

==============================================================================================[/B]

Dictionary.com – discussion [emphasis added]: an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.

Dictionary.com – debate [emphasis added]: a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints.

==============================================================================================[/B]

On the basis of that, I debate the idea that discussion can be undertaken without debate. (And vice versa.)

Maybe more discussion should be permitted to allow debate on the matter.


(Unless it was a trick, hoping someone would take de bait. In which case I bit. If so, I should be undebatably discuss-ted with myself for being tricked.)

 

[Lamb]

There will be no discussion about the new forum as to whether it will or will not have debate. The owner has already chosen what will happen in that forum. Please do not bring the new forum into this topic of this thread will be trashed.

 

[Josiah]

Please, all, don't hijack the thread.

Please, all, don't try to stop and hinder discussion in a discussion forum.

Please, all, don't try to derail the thread with snide, snerky, personal rebukes (of the opening poster or any who choose to participate in the important subject).



There are concerns right now about posters not engaging in discussion, members posting snide personal remarks and rebukes instead of respectfully engaging in constructive discussion. Let's all try to avoid it. Try to be examples of the respect and open discussion (without the derails and personal snide remarks) that we want here. And if you have nothing to say to the discussion topic, then don't post in it (simple, huh?) - and if you are going to insist on that polity, practice it. I hold that this loss of TRUTH and ever-increasing embrace of RELATIVISM is a cancer in our modern society, and perhaps no more so than in the modern church. And I gave Scripture to support my view (as has been suggested we do - but they were ignored) and questions to discuss (as has been suggested - but they were ignored).


See the opening post.



- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

To our members: My Like for Josiah's post was for what he originally wrote. Not what he edited and added, in case you were confused. Carry on.

 

[Albion]

It's a shame that CH has to end this way. Really.

 

[davedajobauk]

*
#1 _Are we to just swallow the opinions of others?

Some, leave us no-choice, other than to 'suck it up' >> Obey those in-authority over you



#2 _Are all opinions equal?

Yes, it is the 'evaluation' by the listener, of the opinion's 'applicability', that requires consideration >> Jesus on the Mount


#3 _Does truth actually exist?

Do we know, when we hear LIES ? if so, then do we not seek and respect TRUTH ?


#4 _Does it matter?

If that question, was meant to ask: "DOES TRUTH MATTER" Where does reality exist, in it's absence ?



Yes / No could, be applied to every question, but, you invite (hope-for) 'more-detailed responses'

God is TRUTH
and, we are TO BECOME LIKE HIM / to-follow His ways
God does not deceive and neither should we :thumbsup:


I used-to urge my children, to "TELL THE TRUTH AND SHAME THE DEVIL"


example: Let us say, that I knew of the whereabouts of a battered-wife that had sought refuge from the violence (?)

I would tell lies ~to protect-her :thumbsup: ie: Deny any-knowledge of her/ her location

ECCLESIASTES 3 (NIV)

God, is Judge

dave

 

[Josiah]

.

 

[MennoSota]

It's a shame that CH has to end this way. Really.

LOL, is that an opinion or a fact.

 

[pinacled]

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James 3:1