Scientist concludes that we don't have free will

[Albion]

Then why do they have some absolutely conflicting opinions on doctrine? Why do Catholics believe that one has to be purged in the afterlife? Why do some Protestants believe that all you have to do is to believe and you're saved forever? Why do Orthodox think that salvation is a process, not a moment in time?

One would think that when two people have their eyes open and look in the same direction, they see the same things.

Well, the real question would deal with the importance of the differences.

If Christian #1 believes, for example, that the end times' account in Revelation is literally accurate in all details (flying through the sky, etc.) while Christian #2 thinks much of that account is poetic but true and the basic result is the same...does this make him either a better or a worse Christian than Christian #1? I wouldn't say it's either, but there are people who will argue that it's critical test of the person's faith.

So, as for the importance of the differences, it matters what's in dispute. Purgatory isn't supported by Scripture, and salvation by the performance of good works isn't either. However, I don't hesitate to consider both groups on either issue to be Christian and their people true believers.

 

[Angel Michael]

It most definitely does not. Take it from Jesus Himself: to enter life, keep the commandments. Those who endure till the end will be saved.

Then there's Paul constantly telling the people to struggle, to endure, to work out their salvation, going as far as to say that he keeps his body into subjection so that he himself might not be a castaway.

Then there's James who says that faith without works cannot save. The goats from the parable are judged by their works, not by their faith. Even the demons believe in God's existence. It would be irrational for God to save someone for simply having cognitive belief about His existence.

Plenty of ex-Christians who used to have "Christian experiences", prayed everyday, studied the Bible till they learned it by heart, spoke in tongues, did missionary work, and believed with all their heart, ended up deconverting.


Did you... call Orthodoxy and Catholicism new denominations?

All other than Ortodox is denomination.

 

[Albion]

All other than Ortodox is denomination.

Oh yeah. That's what a long list of different denominations like to say about themselves. LOL

Apparently, it makes the membership feel better about their affiliation and more likely to stay with it rather than change churches.

 

[Lees]

Wow! A Christian who doesn't believe in the existence of free will? This is not something one comes across very often. All the Christian apologists I've watched present the existence of free will as an a priori fact on which the entire Christian doctrine is based on. Except for Calvinism, I don't think I know any Christian denomination that denies the existence of free will.

Usually most Christians are just thinking about 'will' when they say 'free will'. As I said, we all have a will. But our will is not free.

For example, a Jewish woman in the holocaust has two children, a girl and a boy. She is told she can leave Germany but only with one of the children. The other stays in the concentration camp. It's her choice. If she doesn't decide within two minutes, they both stay. She must exercise her will.

But what is her will? Her will is that they all go free and leave Germany. But she doesn't get her will. She has to make a decision based on something she doesn't want to do.

She makes a decision and chooses one. She exercised her decision, but did not get her will. Her will was not free. Her will was determined by the choice she was forced to make.

Only God has free will. His will is not affected by any outside influence. His will is His alone and is free.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Ok. Give me some examples.

Sure, these are probably going to seem banal to you, but they are all decisions made without feelings:

A) Recently had an appointment with someone where I had to travel a bit. Although I've been to the area before, it had been a while and I wasn't quite sure how long it would take me. So I decided to go early. Since I figured I'd have time on my hands just waiting until the time arrived (I did), I decided to bring a book. My choice was between a book for pleasure I sometimes read to pass time and a technical book. I choose the technical book this time because it is inline with recent goals that I have.

B) Made inquiries at a distributor about parts I need for a project. I was referred to "technical staff". Tech staff got back to me in a few days and informed me they didn't have the parts I needed. I wasn't satisfied with this answer so I continued to dig around more in their website. After a few hours, I found exactly what I needed. That was decision 1. Decision 2 is not to say anything about the tech staff, which I felt was a lazy response, because it really doesn't serve me or the individual responding.

C) I sometimes plant onions - these are just maybe 1/6 of the onion I didn't use that has the part where the roots grow out of. They were getting dry and since I recently cleared a bit of land, I decided to plant them there instead of somewhere else.

D) At the grocery recently, I went in with a bag and got 3 items that fit into the bag. A fourth item was too large for the bag. The store was getting ready to close and when I got in line the person ahead of me had a full basket of items. I was waved through by the cashier to go ahead with what she thought was my 1 large item. She started to check me out assuming I had nothing in the bag from the store and I had to inform her that I had 3 more items to pay for.

 

[Stravinsk]

Usually most Christians are just thinking about 'will' when they say 'free will'. As I said, we all have a will. But our will is not free.

For example, a Jewish woman in the holocaust has two children, a girl and a boy. She is told she can leave Germany but only with one of the children. The other stays in the concentration camp. It's her choice. If she doesn't decide within two minutes, they both stay. She must exercise her will.

But what is her will? Her will is that they all go free and leave Germany. But she doesn't get her will. She has to make a decision based on something she doesn't want to do.

She makes a decision and chooses one. She exercised her decision, but did not get her will. Her will was not free. Her will was determined by the choice she was forced to make.

Only God has free will. His will is not affected by any outside influence. His will is His alone and is free.

Lees

LOL, you refer to "Sophie's Choice" the book/movie of course. The Nazi interplay at the camp is especially wicked, and is meant to raise the ire of Christians.

Written and directed by the Jew Alan J. Pakula

Anyway, this isn't an example "there is no free will, period", it's an example of "this person doesn't have free will in this scenario". Discernment Lees, discernment. That can lack when one is depending on generalizations and fantasy movies written by Jews.

​

 

[Lees]

LOL, you refer to "Sophie's Choice" the book/movie of course. The Nazi interplay at the camp is especially wicked, and is meant to raise the ire of Christians.

Written and directed by the Jew Alan J. Pakula

Anyway, this isn't an example "there is no free will, period", it's an example of "this person doesn't have free will in this scenario". Discernment Lees, discernment. That can lack when one is depending on generalizations and fantasy movies written by Jews.

​

That is a lie. It is an example of 'no free will'. As you admitted when you said, 'this person doesn't have free will in this scenario'. That is exactly what it was meant to be. A scenario of no free will.

All I said was this was an example of 'no free will'. Whether the story is true or not is immaterial. It is an example of no free will. Being Jew wasn't the subject. The will was.

Funny how you interject being Jew as having some evil intent in the example.

Here is another example: Fictious, but an example. A man takes his children out on the lake in his boat. No life preservers. Hits a log and has a terrible crash. The man can swim but his children cannot. And they are flung far apart from him, crying for help.

He can go to one and save one, but doesn't have the time, energy, or strength to save both. He must choose who to save. What is his will? His will is to save both, but he can't have his will. He decides for one. His will is exercised. But it wasn't free. He was forced to make a decision against his will.

Just to make you happy in my fictious scenario, neither the man or his children were Jews. Hows that?

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

That is a lie. It is an example of 'no free will'. As you admitted when you said, 'this person doesn't have free will in this scenario'. That is exactly what it was meant to be. A scenario of no free will.

That's right, in the story, Sophie doesn't get to exercise her will, instead she must choose based on the Nazi man's will.

However, it doesn't follow that free will doesn't exist period. It just doesn't exist in this scenario.

All I said was this was an example of 'no free will'. Whether the story is true or not is immaterial. It is an example of no free will. Being Jew wasn't the subject. The will was.

Funny how you interject being Jew as having some evil intent in the example.

I'm pretty sure you are using this and other examples to prove a premise (ie: "There is no free will") which you have stated already. The conclusion doesn't follow. Circumstances can limit choices, obviously. The choices left due to the circumstance may not reflect a person's will in that scenario. It doesn't follow that humans don't have free will full stop.

As for Jews having intent, well...from outside the US media bubble, I can see it for what it is. I enjoyed "Sophie's Choice" when I first saw it many years ago. That particular scene you made reference to is a real tear-jerker. The acting is superb. And the message too, is crystal clear to me. What's the message? Oh, dear Christian, weep. For you may not be a Jew, but here you can identify as an oppressed person at the hands of the oh so evil Nazis:

Pro Jewish/anti Nazi movies are a regular feature of US film. A VERY regular feature spanning decades of films. And a good deal of them are written and/or directed by Jews. Stephen Spielberg comes to mind: Schindler's List (a false story), Raiders of the Lost Ark (all kinds of anti-Nazi storylines here), the Last Crusade (Nazi's are the evil villians again in this caper). Thelist goes well beyond Speilberg into many films over many years.

Here is another example: Fictious, but an example. A man takes his children out on the lake in his boat. No life preservers. Hits a log and has a terrible crash. The man can swim but his children cannot. And they are flung far apart from him, crying for help.

He can go to one and save one, but doesn't have the time, energy, or strength to save both. He must choose who to save. What is his will? His will is to save both, but he can't have his will. He decides for one. His will is exercised. But it wasn't free. He was forced to make a decision against his will.

Just to make you happy in my fictious scenario, neither the man or his children were Jews. Hows that?

Lees

Your example doesn't prove your premise. It just shows that the will of the man is limited in this scenario. He still makes a choice, just not the one he would have if he had the strength to rescue both children.

Hey man, I'd LOVE to be able to fly like superman, without any machines or anything, just leap and fly around wherever I want. But because of the way the world works, this can't happen. I can only make choices like parachute, fly in a plane, a hang-glider etc. It doesn't follow that free will doesn't exist just because something I want doesn't exist.

 

[Lees]

That's right, in the story, Sophie doesn't get to exercise her will, instead she must choose based on the Nazi man's will.

However, it doesn't follow that free will doesn't exist period. It just doesn't exist in this scenario.


I'm pretty sure you are using this and other examples to prove a premise (ie: "There is no free will") which you have stated already. The conclusion doesn't follow. Circumstances can limit choices, obviously. The choices left due to the circumstance may not reflect a person's will in that scenario. It doesn't follow that humans don't have free will full stop.

As for Jews having intent, well...from outside the US media bubble, I can see it for what it is. I enjoyed "Sophie's Choice" when I first saw it many years ago. That particular scene you made reference to is a real tear-jerker. The acting is superb. And the message too, is crystal clear to me. What's the message? Oh, dear Christian, weep. For you may not be a Jew, but here you can identify as an oppressed person at the hands of the oh so evil Nazis:

Pro Jewish/anti Nazi movies are a regular feature of US film. A VERY regular feature spanning decades of films. And a good deal of them are written and/or directed by Jews. Stephen Spielberg comes to mind: Schindler's List (a false story), Raiders of the Lost Ark (all kinds of anti-Nazi storylines here), the Last Crusade (Nazi's are the evil villians again in this caper). Thelist goes well beyond Speilberg into many films over many years.


Your example doesn't prove your premise. It just shows that the will of the man is limited in this scenario. He still makes a choice, just not the one he would have if he had the strength to rescue both children.

Hey man, I'd LOVE to be able to fly like superman, without any machines or anything, just leap and fly around wherever I want. But because of the way the world works, this can't happen. I can only make choices like parachute, fly in a plane, a hang-glider etc. It doesn't follow that free will doesn't exist just because something I want doesn't exist.

Oh yes, you either have 'free will' or you don't. And these examples prove you don't. These examples may be fictious, but they are examples of real life decisions people make in the world every day.

I could care less what you thought about Sophies Choice. I don't care if you shed a tear. It was an example of the will. Not about the Jew. But how interesting you reveal your hatred of the Jew....though with a tear in your eye.

The examples do prove the premise. Man either has free will or he doesn't. If he doesn't in every case, then he doesn't in no case. He can always exercise his will. That doesn't make his will free.

Well, you being superman is not a question of your will at all. That is a no decision. We are talking about when you do exercise your will. As you don't have free will.

Only God has free will. Man has only a will.

Lees

 

[Stravinsk]

Oh yes, you either have 'free will' or you don't. And these examples prove you don't. These examples may be fictious, but they are examples of real life decisions people make in the world every day.

I could care less what you thought about Sophies Choice. I don't care if you shed a tear. It was an example of the will. Not about the Jew. But how interesting you reveal your hatred of the Jew....though with a tear in your eye.

The examples do prove the premise. Man either has free will or he doesn't. If he doesn't in every case, then he doesn't in no case. He can always exercise his will. That doesn't make his will free.

Well, you being superman is not a question of your will at all. That is a no decision. We are talking about when you do exercise your will. As you don't have free will.

Only God has free will. Man has only a will.

Lees

lol. Lees, your mind appears to me as a checkerboard floor. Black or white. Or some fine concrete. All mixed up and permanently set. It's so important for you to be right that you entertain ridiculous logic. I guess maybe some of us may read or hear about you on the news someday. What, with your lack of free will, toten that loaded gun around I could see you running into a muslim man in the US somewhere. The black/white will kick in, and of course he will be bent on Jihad, since there is no other option. You will have no free will and you'll gun him down. After all, it wasn't your choice.

 

[Lees]

lol. Lees, your mind appears to me as a checkerboard floor. Black or white. Or some fine concrete. All mixed up and permanently set. It's so important for you to be right that you entertain ridiculous logic. I guess maybe some of us may read or hear about you on the news someday. What, with your lack of free will, toten that loaded gun around I could see you running into a muslim man in the US somewhere. The black/white will kick in, and of course he will be bent on Jihad, since there is no other option. You will have no free will and you'll gun him down. After all, it wasn't your choice.

Laugh all you like. Nothing you just said adds anything to your argument.

Man always has a will. But his will is not free.

Man's will is influenced by outside forces beyond his control. He is placed in situations that force him to exercise his will, and many times to make a decision that he doesn't like.

Again, only God has free will. No outside force influences His will.

Lees

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Again, only God has free will. No outside force influences His will.

What about that time Moses influenced God's will to kill the Israelites? Or when God kept telling the Israelites that they should repent and return to Him all throughout the Old Testament, but they didn't? Was it God's will for them to not repent despite Him telling them to repent?

 

[Lees]

What about that time Moses influenced God's will to kill the Israelites? Or when God kept telling the Israelites that they should repent and return to Him all throughout the Old Testament, but they didn't? Was it God's will for them to not repent despite Him telling them to repent?

Give chapter and verses and I will respond.

Lees