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Salvation

Maranatha

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I'm following the discussion "Did Christ die for them that are perishing"
But I have "insufficient privileges" to comment on what is called "Bible study"
So I just like to add my opinion here.

To understand our Salvation is paramount, nothing is more important.
@Lil Mikey
Welcome to the forum, thank you for your post and for writing the truth

@franky
you wrote: "We all have opinions and like the blind men describing the elephant all of us are both right and wrong at the same time."
Opinions don't save us, salvation is not based on opinions

@Brightfame
you call those who don't agree with you "false teachers" eg:
Now false teachers would tell us that this freedom from their sins condemnation and punishment of them is not until they believe,

which is not the truth and a attempt to steal the Crown of Victory from Christ and His Love and His Blood ! Those of us He died for
are loosed from our sins by His Blood alone !Rev 1:5 43 ( 21. April)


You are spreading a false Gospel !

@Moderators
Do you agree with Brightfame?
If not why don't you lock that thread ?
 

Frankj

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@franky
you wrote: "We all have opinions and like the blind men describing the elephant all of us are both right and wrong at the same time."
Opinions don't save us, salvation is not based on opinions

That's kind of my point, we all have opinions about what something means, and it is when we hold our own opinion as superior to all other opinions and even go so far as to claim any other view (opinion) than our own is false we end up limiting our knowledge of overall truth the same the blind men and their elephant did.

When we talk of Jesus dying for all, what are we actually talking about? All is a rather inclusive word, and it contains more than just a narrow Western meaning two thousand or more years after it was spoken.
 

Lamb

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I'm following the discussion "Did Christ die for them that are perishing"
But I have "insufficient privileges" to comment on what is called "Bible study"
So I just like to add my opinion here.

To understand our Salvation is paramount, nothing is more important.
@Lil Mikey
Welcome to the forum, thank you for your post and for writing the truth

@franky
you wrote: "We all have opinions and like the blind men describing the elephant all of us are both right and wrong at the same time."
Opinions don't save us, salvation is not based on opinions

@Brightfame
you call those who don't agree with you "false teachers" eg:
Now false teachers would tell us that this freedom from their sins condemnation and punishment of them is not until they believe,

which is not the truth and a attempt to steal the Crown of Victory from Christ and His Love and His Blood ! Those of us He died for
are loosed from our sins by His Blood alone !Rev 1:5 43 ( 21. April)


You are spreading a false Gospel !

@Moderators
Do you agree with Brightfame?
If not why don't you lock that thread ?

Why do the moderators need to lock the thread?

According to what @brightfame52's beliefs, false teachers are those who adhere to the things that were listed. Now, if you ask me what I believe false teachers are, I might give you a different answer, but it's not flaming to state what you believe false teaching is. What would be flaming would to be repeatedly call someone here on the forum in a thread a false teacher. That would be too much.
 

Lil Mikey

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When we talk of Jesus dying for all, what are we actually talking about? All is a rather inclusive word, and it contains more than just a narrow Western meaning two thousand or more years after it was spoken.

So what do you think "ALL" means in verse,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

When you look at the context what conclusions do you come to as to who are the "ALL"
 

Frankj

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So what do you think "ALL" means in verse,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

When you look at the context what conclusions do you come to as to who are the "ALL"
To me all means all, no exceptions. everyone ever born, Adam and included even though they were not born, from the beginning of time to the end of it.

No one is lost to salvation even though having died before the flood.

What does it mean to you?
 

Lil Mikey

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To me all means all, no exceptions. everyone ever born, Adam and included even though they were not born, from the beginning of time to the end of it.

No one is lost to salvation even though having died before the flood.

What does it mean to you?

From what you wrote am I to conclude that you are a universalist? I would hope not as that is a heretical view.

""ALL" in the context of the verses I posted means that all can be saved not that all will be saved.
 

Frankj

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From what you wrote am I to conclude that you are a universalist? I would hope not as that is a heretical view.

""ALL" in the context of the verses I posted means that all can be saved not that all will be saved.
So then all doesn't really mean all then, instead it means some?

Tell me how that works without interpreting anything, strictly relying on the perfect use of language in scripture (which is already being denied by saying all really means some instead of all, which is an interpretation of a word which puts it in the class of an opinion).
 

Lil Mikey

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So then all doesn't really mean all then, instead it means some?

Tell me how that works without interpreting anything, strictly relying on the perfect use of language in scripture (which is already being denied by saying all really means some instead of all, which is an interpretation of a word which puts it in the class of an opinion).

Well if we went by your understanding then we have universalism which is a heresy. Do you hold to universalism?

Do you have a problem reading what I wrote?

ALL can be saved, which is just what we see in those verses. But only those that freely trust in the risen Christ will be saved.

From your comment it would seem that you lack the ability to read and understand the words in these verses.

So what do you think "ALL" means in verse,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That is God's desire, all can be saved, but He does not force anyone to be saved.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

The death of Christ paid the ransom for all but only those that believe in Him will be saved.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

If Your a Sinner, Then Christ Died for You.

In other words, since we’re all sinners (Rom_3:23), then Christ died for everyone. This is so simple, that anyone can understand it.
 

Frankj

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In other words, since we’re all sinners (Rom_3:23), then Christ died for everyone. This is so simple, that anyone can understand it.
Isn't that exactly what I said when I said all includes every man from Adam to the end of mankind?

You are the one that took exception to that, and you are the one that says scripture is exactly what it says and cannot be interpreted to mean or include anything other than that which would put it into the category of opinion (something you took issue with concerning anyone having and claiming you are free of)

Are you sure you are talking about the same thing I am? Again, I point out that language is imprecise and can easily result in misunderstandings between people like the blind men's understanding of an elephant where each is thinking of it as being different when they are simply touching different parts of the same thing.
 

Lil Mikey

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Isn't that exactly what I said when I said all includes every man from Adam to the end of mankind?

You are the one that took exception to that, and you are the one that says scripture is exactly what it says and cannot be interpreted to mean or include anything other than that which would put it into the category of opinion (something you took issue with concerning anyone having and claiming you are free of)

Are you sure you are talking about the same thing I am? Again, I point out that language is imprecise and can easily result in misunderstandings between people like the blind men's understanding of an elephant where each is thinking of it as being different when they are simply touching different parts of the same thing.

It would seem that you do nit even know what you are talking about.

To quote you

"To me all means all, no exceptions. everyone ever born, Adam and included even though they were not born, from the beginning of time to the end of it.

No one is lost to salvation even though having died before the flood."

Are ALL people saved or are all people able to be saved.


It seems that you want language to be imprecise so that you can make it say what you want it to say. That is just what we see the cults do. They attach their own meaning to words so as to make the word of God support their particular views.

The view that you are promoting has and will continue to lead to many errors.
 

Frankj

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It would seem that you do nit even know what you are talking about.

To quote you

"To me all means all, no exceptions. everyone ever born, Adam and included even though they were not born, from the beginning of time to the end of it.

No one is lost to salvation even though having died before the flood."

Are ALL people saved or are all people able to be saved.


It seems that you want language to be imprecise so that you can make it say what you want it to say. That is just what we see the cults do. They attach their own meaning to words so as to make the word of God support their particular views.

The view that you are promoting has and will continue to lead to many errors.
If you recall, your original post to me was in criticism of my post about interpretation as being opiniom ("Scripture is what is written, interpretation of scripture is opinion about what is written.We all have opinions and like the blind men describing the elephant all of us are both right and wrong at the same time.".

You took issue with the idea of opinions, strongly standing against it, yet all you seem to post are opinions, both of scripture and other people.

Have you considered just posting scripture and nothing else, no commentary about it which is your opion?

I sincerely hope you are not one of those who thinks your position is the only right one and if anyone has a different opinion it is wrong because you are the only one with the right opinion.

At this point I don't see any positive place we can go so let's just end it here and consider what is being discussed in the privacy of our own thoughts.

May your day be blessed and bring you an abundance of those things you seek.
 

jswauto

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I'm following the discussion "Did Christ die for them that are perishing"

⭐What Is Hyper‑Calvinism?

“When God’s sovereignty is emphasized in a way the Bible itself does not.”

Hyper‑Calvinism is an extreme theological position that goes beyond historic Calvinism and denies or minimizes essential biblical truths about human responsibility, evangelism, and the universal offer of the gospel.
It is not what John Calvin taught. It is not what the Reformed confessions teach. It is not what Scripture teaches.
Hyper‑Calvinism is a later distortion.

⭐1. The Core Beliefs of Hyper‑Calvinism

Hyper‑Calvinism typically includes one or more of these errors:

A. Denial of the universal gospel call

They claim the gospel should not be offered to all people, only to the “elect.”
But Scripture says:
  • “God commands all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30)
  • “Whosoever will may come” (Rev. 22:17)
  • “Preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15)

B. Denial of human responsibility

They argue that sinners have no duty to repent or believe unless they already show signs of election.
But Scripture says:
  • “Repent and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15)
  • “This is His commandment: that we believe” (1 John 3:23)

C. Denial that God has love for all humanity

They claim God has no love, compassion, or goodwill toward the non‑elect.
But Scripture says:
  • “God so loved the world” (John 3:16)
  • “He is kind to the unthankful and evil” (Luke 6:35)

D. Denial that God desires all to be saved

They reject passages like:
  • 1 Timothy 2:4
  • 2 Peter 3:9
  • Ezekiel 18:23
Historic Calvinists interpret these differently — but they do not deny them.
Hyper‑Calvinists do.

⭐2. Why Hyper‑Calvinism Is Not Biblical

A. It contradicts the Great Commission

Jesus commands:
  • “Go into all the world”
  • “Make disciples of all nations”
  • “Preach the gospel to every creature”
Hyper‑Calvinism cannot obey these commands.

B. It contradicts the universal gospel offer

Paul preached to:
  • Jews
  • Gentiles
  • Idolaters
  • Philosophers
  • Pagans
  • Entire cities
He never restricted the gospel to “probable elect.”

C. It contradicts God’s revealed character

God is:
  • patient
  • merciful
  • compassionate
  • slow to anger
  • rich in mercy
  • kind to all
Hyper‑Calvinism reduces God’s revealed compassion to a narrow electing love only.

D. It contradicts the pattern of Scripture

Prophets, apostles, and Christ Himself:
  • pleaded
  • warned
  • invited
  • wept
  • reasoned
  • called all people to repentance
Hyper‑Calvinism eliminates this biblical tone.

⭐3. What Historic Calvinism Actually Teaches

Historic Calvinism (the Reformed confessions, Puritans, Calvin himself) teaches:
  • God is sovereign
  • Man is responsible
  • The gospel is for all
  • God commands all to repent
  • Evangelism is essential
  • God has a general love for all humanity
  • God has a special saving love for the elect
  • The gospel call is sincere
Hyper‑Calvinism denies several of these.

⭐4. Where Hyper‑Calvinism Came From

It emerged in the 1700s among certain English Baptists and Dutch Reformed groups who:
  • over‑emphasized election
  • under‑emphasized human responsibility
  • reacted against Arminianism
  • misinterpreted the doctrine of regeneration
It is a historical aberration, not a biblical doctrine.

⭐5. Summary: Is Hyper‑Calvinism Biblical?

No.

Hyper‑Calvinism is not biblical because it:
  • contradicts the Great Commission
  • contradicts the universal gospel call
  • contradicts God’s revealed compassion
  • contradicts the preaching of Jesus and the apostles
  • contradicts the balance of divine sovereignty and human responsibility
Hyper‑Calvinism is an imbalanced system that takes one truth (God’s sovereignty) and pushes it so far that it denies other truths the Bible clearly teaches.

⭐ 1. Comparison Chart: Calvinism vs. Hyper‑Calvinism vs. Arminianism


DoctrineCalvinismHyper‑CalvinismArminianism
God’s SovereigntyAbsolute; God ordains all thingsOver‑emphasized to the exclusion of human responsibilityGod sovereignly allows libertarian free will
Human ResponsibilityFully affirmedDenied or minimizedFully affirmed
Gospel OfferUniversal, sincereRestricted only to the electUniversal
Extent of the AtonementParticular redemption (varies by view)Extreme particularismUniversal atonement
God’s Love for the WorldGeneral love for all; special love for electDenied; only for electUniversal love
Duty to Repent & BelieveRequired of allRequired only of “sensible sinners”Required of all
EvangelismEssential, commandedUnnecessary or discouragedEssential, commanded
View of ElectionUnconditionalUnconditionalConditional (based on foreseen faith)
View of GraceIrresistibleIrresistibleResistible
PerseverancePerseverance of the saintsPerseverance of the electConditional security (varies)
Biblical StatusOrthodoxUnbiblicalOrthodox (though debated)

Summary:
  • Calvinism = biblical balance of sovereignty + responsibility
  • Hyper‑Calvinism = sovereignty without responsibility
  • Arminianism = responsibility without monergistic sovereignty

⭐ 2. Visual Doctrinal Diagram — The Biblical Balance

“Where Scripture Stands Between Two Extremes”

Code

[ GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY ]


(Hyper-Calvinism) │ (Calvinism) │ (Arminianism)


[ HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY ]

Explanation of the Diagram

  • Hyper‑Calvinism
    • Over‑emphasizes sovereignty
    • Denies responsibility
    • Collapses evangelism
    • Distorts God’s character
  • Arminianism
    • Over‑emphasizes responsibility
    • Weakens sovereignty
    • Makes grace resistible
    • Grounds election in human choice
  • Biblical Calvinism (the center)
    • Holds both truths together
    • God is absolutely sovereign
    • Humans are genuinely responsible
    • The gospel is sincerely offered to all
    • Salvation is monergistic
    • Evangelism is essential
 
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jswauto

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⭐I. God’s Absolute Sovereignty

“He works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph. 1:11)

Scripture teaches:
  • God ordains all things
  • God elects a people
  • God draws sinners
  • God grants repentance
  • God gives faith
  • God preserves His saints
Sovereignty is not a doctrine — it is the atmosphere of Scripture.

⭐II. Human Responsibility

“Repent and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)

Scripture teaches:
  • Humans must repent
  • Humans must believe
  • Humans are accountable
  • Humans are commanded to obey
  • Humans are judged for their choices
Responsibility is not a contradiction — it is the other half of the biblical tension.

⭐III. The Biblical Tension

The Bible never explains how sovereignty and responsibility fit together — only that they do.
Examples:
  • Joseph’s brothers meant evil; God meant it for good (Gen. 50:20)
  • The crucifixion was predestined yet carried out by wicked men (Acts 2:23)
  • God hardens Pharaoh, yet Pharaoh hardens his own heart
  • God chooses; humans respond
  • God calls; humans repent
  • God ordains; humans act
This tension is not a problem — it is the architecture of redemption.

⭐IV. Errors That Arise When One Side Is Over‑Emphasized

A. Hyper‑Calvinism (Sovereignty without Responsibility)

  • No universal gospel call
  • No duty to believe
  • No evangelism
  • No compassion for the lost
  • A distorted view of God’s character

B. Arminianism (Responsibility without Sovereignty)

  • Election based on foreseen faith
  • Grace resistible
  • Salvation partly synergistic
  • God’s will frustrated by human will

C. Biblical Calvinism (The Balance)

  • God sovereignly saves
  • Humans are commanded to respond
  • The gospel is offered to all
  • Evangelism is essential
  • God’s love is both general and particular

⭐V. Why This Matters for the Church

A biblical view of sovereignty and responsibility:
  • fuels evangelism
  • produces humility
  • magnifies grace
  • protects the gospel
  • honors God’s character
  • strengthens assurance
  • anchors worship
  • avoids extremes
This is the theological center of gravity for a healthy church.

⭐VI. Summary Statement

God is sovereign in salvation.
Humans are responsible to repent and believe.
The gospel is sincerely offered to all.
The elect will come.
The non‑elect are accountable.
And God is glorified in both His mercy and His justice.
This is the biblical balance.


⭐A Cinematic Demonstration of All Three Working Together

“The Call, the Sovereign, and the Willing Heart”

The scene opens in a vast, storm‑torn valley — a place where a single sinner stands trembling beneath the weight of his own guilt. Above him, the heavens rumble with the voice of God: “Turn to Me and live.” The call is universal, sincere, and thunderous. It echoes across the nations, across the ages, across the human heart. Three figures stand on the ridge overlooking the valley, each representing a different instinct about how this moment works.

The first figure — Hyper‑Calvinism — folds his arms and watches silently. To him, the call is not for all. He believes the sinner below has no duty to respond unless he already shows signs of election. He does not move. He does not shout. He does not plead. He simply waits, convinced that if God wants the man, God will drag him without means, without message, without invitation. His silence is cold, and the valley grows darker around him.

The second figure — Arminianism — rushes forward with passion. He shouts, pleads, and waves his arms. To him, everything depends on the sinner’s free choice. He believes God has done all He can; now the outcome rests entirely in the man’s hands. He fears the sinner may refuse, and that fear drives him to urgency. His compassion is real, but his burden is crushing — for he believes the sinner’s eternal destiny hangs on a fragile human decision.

The third figure — Calvinism — steps forward with calm authority. He hears the same divine call and knows it is meant for all. He believes the sinner is responsible to respond, yet he also knows the sinner is spiritually dead. So he proclaims the gospel boldly, confidently, sincerely — trusting that God will use the message to awaken the heart He has chosen. He neither withholds the call nor fears its failure. He stands in the tension with peace.

Down in the valley, the sinner hears the call. His heart is stone. His will is chained. He cannot rise. Hyper‑Calvinism watches and shrugs — “If he is elect, he will come.” Arminianism shouts louder — “Choose! Choose!” Calvinism kneels and prays — “Lord, open his heart,” then continues preaching, knowing God works through means, not apart from them.

Suddenly, the wind shifts. The Spirit moves like a whisper of fire. The sinner’s eyes open. His heart cracks. Light pierces the darkness. This is not the sinner lifting himself; this is God breathing life into dead bones. Hyper‑Calvinism nods, but still does not move. Arminianism cheers, believing the man has saved himself by choosing rightly. Calvinism smiles, knowing God has done what only God can do — yet through the very call He commanded to be preached.

The sinner rises to his feet, trembling. He looks upward, tears streaming, and cries out, “Lord, have mercy on me!” The call of God has become the cry of man. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility meet in a single moment — not as enemies, but as partners in the miracle of salvation. Hyper‑Calvinism cannot explain the man’s cry. Arminianism cannot explain the Spirit’s awakening. Calvinism sees both as one seamless work of God.

The heavens thunder again: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” Hyper‑Calvinism hears only the sovereignty. Arminianism hears only the invitation. Calvinism hears both — the sovereign decree and the universal call — woven together in a tapestry of grace. The sinner’s response is real, heartfelt, and responsible. Yet it is also the result of God’s sovereign initiative. The two truths do not collide; they converge.

As the sinner walks out of the valley, transformed, Hyper‑Calvinism remains motionless, having contributed nothing. Arminianism collapses in exhaustion, unsure whether the next sinner will choose rightly. Calvinism walks beside the redeemed man, confident that the God who began the work will complete it. The valley fades behind them, but the lesson remains: salvation is of the Lord, yet the call is for all, and the response is real.
The scene closes with the three figures standing again on the ridge. Hyper‑Calvinism fades into the shadows, unable to bear the warmth of divine compassion. Arminianism wanders anxiously, searching for the next soul to persuade. Calvinism stands firm, gazing at the horizon where sovereignty and responsibility meet like sunrise and sky. The story ends not with tension, but with harmony — God sovereign, man responsible, and the gospel shining as the bridge between them.

story soo to follow; The Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian take a walk together!
 
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