Roe v Wade Overturned

Do You Support the Overturning of Roe v Wade?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 71.4%
  • No

    Votes: 2 28.6%

  • Total voters
    7

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,689
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
For it to be returned to the states where the voters decide? Isn't that more democratic?
Not at all. This has made it much harder for women to access abortion services and is likely to lead to many more maternal deaths.

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Not at all. This has made it much harder for women to access abortion services and is likely to lead to many more maternal deaths.
Of course it is "more democratic," and that was the observation you are replying to, not something about the safety of abortions. Virtually all abortions, by the way, result in the death of a human, so they cannot be very safe despite what you might imagine.

In this country, there are 50 regional entities (states) which still have significant authority in their own territories, with regional parliaments and their own laws, etc. Everything is not run from the nation's capital. There are marriage regulations, medical licensing regulations, and much more that vary from state to state. So, now we can add new abortion policies to the list.
 
Last edited:

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Of course it is "more democratic," and that was the observation you are working from, not something about the safety of abortions. Virtually all of them, by the way, result in the death of a human, so they cannot be very safe despite what you imagine.

In this country, there are 50 regional entities (states) which still have significant authority in their own territories, with regional parliaments and their own laws, etc. Everything is not run from the nation's capital. There are marriage regulations, medical licensing regulations, and much more that vary from state to state. So, now we can add abortion policies to the list.
Scotus has already mentioned it wants to look at both contraception and Gay marriage. I think you (plural) simply do not care that others will suffer.

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Scotus has already mentioned it wants to look at both contraception and Gay marriage.
Wrong again, Mac.

That was part of the hysterical false news reporting that originated with outraged activists on the far left during the first couple of days after the ruling came down.

Fortunately, some of the most ridiculous and inflammatory rhetoric is dying down now and probably will result in calmer positions being taken, both pro and con, in the weeks ahead.
 

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Wrong again, Mac.

That was part of the hysterical false news reporting that originated with outraged activists on the far left during the first few days after the ruling came down.

Fortunately, some of the most ridiculous and inflammatory rhetoric is dying down now and probably will result in calmer positions being taken, both pro and con, in the weeks ahead.
Shall I quote from the Scotus decision?

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Shall I quote from the Scotus decision?

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
Page 119 of the decision indicates that Clarence Thomas, at least, believes that "... Thomas wrote, was the right for married couples to buy and use contraception without government restriction, from the landmark 1965 ruling in Griswold v. Connecticut.

“In future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell,” Thomas wrote on Page 119 of the opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health, also referring to the rulings that legalized same-sex relationships and marriage equality, respectively. “Because any substantive due process decision is ‘demonstrably erroneous’ … we have a duty to ‘correct the error’ established in those precedents.”

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ption-supreme-court-clarence-thomas-griswold/

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Shall I quote from the Scotus decision?
Do whatever you want and then I will point out the places where you assumed something that isn't actually in the text but comes to you via AOC, Rep. Maxine Waters, a newspaper editorial, or some Hollywood loudmouth, etc.. ;)
 
Last edited:

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Page 119 of the decision indicates that Clarence Thomas, at least, believes that "... Thomas wrote, was the right for married couples to buy and use contraception without government restriction, from the landmark 1965 ruling in Griswold v. Connecticut.

“In future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell,” Thomas wrote on Page 119 of the opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health, also referring to the rulings that legalized same-sex relationships and marriage equality, respectively. “Because any substantive due process decision is ‘demonstrably erroneous’ … we have a duty to ‘correct the error’ established in those precedents.”

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ption-supreme-court-clarence-thomas-griswold/

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
And there you have it, just as I predicted!

The comment you claimed was part of the Supreme Court's decision was actually something said by one justice on the court in citing an opinion from a previous one, and he wasn't saying that such current policies should be reversed, only that (like Roe v. Wade), some of these other decisions of the past may have been decided on dubious legal grounds.

Not surprisingly, the people who needed something to say in the face of defeat took that opportunity to claim that the Court is on the verge of repealing all sorts of laws that it is certainly is not about to do. As I recall, a few of the saner heads in public life corrected that disinformation, too.
 
Last edited:

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
We will see, I have little hope in the sensibility of the members of SCOTUS.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
We will see, I have little hope in the sensibility of the members of SCOTUS.
Well, holding this opinion is your right...and a lot better than repeating disinformation about the Court. Indeed, I agree in part with the point you have stated here. BUT it is the liberal justices who are the extremists on the Court.

While the media make much over the votes of the conservative justices (and you'll probably see a lot more from the left in the near future calling for the Court to be packed, the conservatives to be impeached, yada yada yada)...

The fact is that the conservative majority often does not vote as a bloc. That is not the case with the three liberal justices. They even voted in lockstep a few days ago to uphold the firing of a public school employee for having been seen praying in a public location, but without a crowd around him, traffic disturbed, or any such additional issue being involved.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,734
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Not at all. This has made it much harder for women to access abortion services and is likely to lead to many more maternal deaths.


For 49 years, Liberals and Pro-Abortion folks have had an opportunity to place into law the "right" of a woman to kill her children (with whatever limits on that they want or don't want). They even could have amended the Constitution and put it there. Then were WOULD be a federal law governing all states... then it would be in the Constitution (as, obviously, undeniably, it never was).

Why did they not do that? Not even attempt to? Not even once? Not even when they controlled both houses, the courts and the White House? They didn't do it before 1973 (when it was a State issue - some states allowed it like California and New York, others did not like Utah). They didn't do it for FORTY-NINE years when everyone knew it was not in the Constitution it's just that some Justices thought it SHOULD be here. But NOW they whine.... NOW they complain.... And they admit STILL they can't get it passed for a federal law... can't get an amendment (they just don't have the votes) but for nearly 60 years, back when abortion had more support than now, they never even tried. Not at all. Not once. Not ever.

It now goes EXACTLY where the Constitution specifically states it does: to the States. In California, all wacho issues are embraced and CA will pass laws allowing women to kill children (and perhaps NOT limited to before the last cell of the last toe to exit the birth canal, even if the abortionist hold the head still while he slits her neck). Even possibly put it in the State Constitution. North Dakota may do the opposite. We'll find different states with different laws - as is already the case in MANY, MANY things.



.
 

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
For 49 years, Liberals and Pro-Abortion folks have had an opportunity to place into law the "right" of a woman to kill her children (with whatever limits on that they want or don't want). They even could have amended the Constitution and put it there. Then were WOULD be a federal law governing all states... then it would be in the Constitution (as, obviously, undeniably, it never was).

Why did they not do that? Not even attempt to? Not even once? Not even when they controlled both houses, the courts and the White House? They didn't do it before 1973 (when it was a State issue - some states allowed it like California and New York, others did not like Utah). They didn't do it for FORTY-NINE years when everyone knew it was not in the Constitution it's just that some Justices thought it SHOULD be here. But NOW they whine.... NOW they complain.... And they admit STILL they can't get it passed for a federal law... can't get an amendment (they just don't have the votes) but for nearly 60 years, back when abortion had more support than now, they never even tried. Not at all. Not once. Not ever.

It now goes EXACTLY where the Constitution specifically states it does: to the States. In California, all wacho issues are embraced and CA will pass laws allowing women to kill children (and perhaps NOT limited to before the last cell of the last toe to exit the birth canal, even if the abortionist hold the head still while he slits her neck). Even possibly put it in the State Constitution. North Dakota may do the opposite. We'll find different states with different laws - as is already the case in MANY, MANY things.



.
It is long overdue for America to grow up. It is no one's business whether another person has or does not have an abortion. And the prurient interest you have about what others do sexually is seriously creepy.

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,734
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
A Pro-Life Opinion....


Because we have some at CH who think we should hold to morality that is irreligious) I’ll try to be accommodating. Let me try to address this, as best I can without God and faith and my being. I'll keep it to just 4 points.



FIRST: SCIENCE. There is MUCH talk about "follow the science" (perhaps the secular religion?). “I just say what Science does,” they insist. Well, as once was said, "To claim that a fetus is a human IF the mother wants it but not if the mother doesn't isn't science." IF that "whatever" the day before birth is NOT a human being, a homo sapiens, then what is it?" A cockroach? A butterfly? I want to know, what does SCIENCE say the species is? But I'm a layman....my doctorate is not in Biology … but when I see the ultrasound of a cute little baby sucking her thumb, it just seems to me there's a baby there. And when mother has a baby shower, a gender reveal, when she tells us the name, when she shares pictures of the ultrasound, it seems to me SHE thinks so, too. To ME, defining species by whether such is "wanted" is not science. To me, to agree that that one I’m looking at in the ultrasound sucking her thumb is not a Homo Sapiens, not human, but rather is a snake or bunny rabbit, well, they should show the science that proves that if they insist that’s what science says. Frankly, I think science is more on the pro-life side.



SECOND: NOT PROPERTY. We have this philosophy, this morality deep in the American soul that humans can be property. We saw this in full bloom 150 plus years ago as many claimed that the African is a human (impossible to claim otherwise!) BUT in some cases, just PROPERTY. There's an owner and owners can do with their PROPERTY as they please, even "terminate" such. I hope even non-Christians agree this is immoral. And we (as a society and nation) dealt with that 150 years ago (although it took a literal war) and declared, loud and clear, NO human is property, NO ONE owns another human. But here we are again.... The slogans are just regurgitations of the pro-slavery ones. "MY this... MY that..." Until it's proven to me that an unborn I see in the ultrasound sucking her thumb is just a lifeless THING (like a coffee mug) or a living non-human (perhaps a cockroach), then it seems to me we have a human... and thus she's not property! And there is no owner! Now, acknowledging this, some have a variant; they insist, "Yes, she's human and not property - but she's a DEVELOPING human and it's moral to "terminate" a human who is still developing." Ah. But a 12 year-old girl is still developing too so the morality they are defending applies just as much after birth as before. I think that suggests it's not a moral defense of abortion.



THIRD: WRONG DOESN'T CORRECT WRONG. Proponents of abortions dwell on a sad, tragic reality that we MUST not evade: There are horrible situations! We live in a fallen, sinful, broken world where ____ happens (Oops, I said I'd keep religion out of this). You gave an excellent example. Bad happens to women and men, girls and boys, Blacks and Whites, religious and non-religious - perhaps through NO fault of their own. There are horrible, sad, tragic and very REAL stories. No one argues otherwise. But some seem to hold that the proper response is to kill the most innocent party in this. I'd argue that two wrongs don't make a right, it just makes a bigger wrong. Instead of punishing the child, we need to help the mother. I reject the sharp either/or of the pro-abortion side, the sharp division they make. We need to "be there" for BOTH mother and child, for ALL victims, for ALL threatened and abused. Those tragic stories about mothers suggest help for the mother, not killing a child.



FOURTH: HUMAN RIGHTS. Much talk is made of "rights" these days. Even ones in the Constitution that aren't in the Constitution. There is a basic American view that there are inalienable rights granted by the Creator (oops, I said I'd keep religion out of this although America put it in there). We'd agree on some: Freedom of speech, for example. But NONE OF THEM matters at all if there is no right to life. If my LIFE is taken away, what difference does it make if I have freedom of speech? All rights depend on one right: the right to be, the right to exist, the right to life. Again, I know the response: “But some humans are just property, and property has no rights.” But we know from history that any can reduce others to just property: Hitler and the Jews, A lot of Americans and African slaves, many have been victims of this "human but property" morality. We need to embrace human rights....and that they all completely, fully, entirely depend on one right: the right to life, to exist, to be. It's a human right they have simply by virtue of being human rather than snakes.


I know both "camps" are pretty entrenched. But I do hope we (as a society) can get past the politics and slogans and DEAL with a huge issue, one that kills more people than cancer in America, twice as many every year as died in the entire Second World War. This is an enormous moral issue… and with or without faith, it must be addressed.



Thank you for hearing me out.


Josiah



.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,734
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It is long overdue for America to grow up. It is no one's business whether another person has or does not have an abortion.

.... an apologetic taken hook, line and sinker from the pro-slavery movement. You are forgetting someone, the one MOST impacted by the decision, the one who would be killed. Why is it not the business of one to be killed? Surely you also support the killing of the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany because it's not the business of the one being killed. I think you need to grow up.



.
And the prurient interest you have about what others do sexually is seriously creepy.

Killing childen is not a sex act. Stop trying to make this about intercourse. No baby is killed by intercourse.




.
 

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
.... an apologetic taken hook, line and sinker from the pro-slavery movement. You are forgetting someone, the one MOST impacted by the decision, the one who would be killed. Why is it not the business of one to be killed? Surely you also support the killing of the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany because it's not the business of the one being killed. I think you need to grow up.



.


Killing childen is not a sex act. Stop trying to make this about intercourse. No baby is killed by intercourse.




.
Twaddle. I will reply when I've had some sleep but your argument is heiferdust.

Sent from my ELE-L09 using Tapatalk
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
On the other hand, it's you who wrote this--

I think you (plural) simply do not care that others will suffer.

I will reply when I've had some sleep but your argument is heiferdust.

So, it doesn't look like you have a lot of room to whine about what you read just a few minutes ago.
 

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
Response to #34

FIRST: SCIENCE. A ZEF is a potential human being, in the same way that an acorn is a potential oak tree. Put another way, they are 'foetuses' that will, in time and all things being equal will become a human / Oak tree. And THAT is the science of the matter.

SECOND: NOT PROPERTY. No one argues that a ZEF is property just that it does not 1: have the same rights as a born human and 2: such rights as it does have do NOT over-rule the rights of the human carrying them in utero.

THIRD: WRONG DOESN'T CORRECT WRONG. You assert that "bad things happen but two wrongs do not make a right"; Frankly that is an easy position to take when YOU are not the one in the situation. A ZEF conceived by an act of violence should be aborted if that is 1: what the one carrying it wants or 2: carrying to term would inflict physical or mental harm on the carrier.

FOURTH: HUMAN RIGHTS. Most western states do not give ZEFs full human rights for good reasons. Fully 50% of fertilised eggs never implant in the uterine wall; any number of things can go wrong in the process of implantation and development which can render the ZEF non-viable.

FIFTH: Your concerns are based in Christian theology, not everyone in your country is Christians. Should Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc have their reproductive rights affected because you want things a particular way?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,734
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Response to #34

FIRST: SCIENCE. A ZEF is a potential human being

For that little one sucking her thumb in the ultrasound to not be Homo Sapiens, it needs to be scientifically proven she is some other species. For her to be a non-species, it must be shown there is no life.

So 2 minutes before the head appears at the birth canal, we don't have a human... we have.... what? A POTENTIAL human? How does the DNA change as the last cell of the last toe exits the birth canal?

How do you determine when a human has fulfilled their "potential?" Human potential is achieved as the last toe exits the birth canal? Quote to me the science that proves that.

I know a LOT of people in their 30's who seem (even claim) not to have reached their human potential. How does science prove when one has and thus become human?


SECOND: NOT PROPERTY. No one argues that a ZEF is property just that it does not 1: have the same rights as a born human and 2: such rights as it does have do NOT over-rule the rights of the human carrying them in utero.


Which is it? That little girl sucking her thumb in the ultrasound IS human or not? And does she have rights or not? You seem to argue both or neither or just confused.

It seems to me either you view her as a non-life (like a coffee cup?) or some OTHER species (a bunny rabbit)? OR you are insisting that some humans are lesser than other humans - perhaps because they are PROPERTY (like African slaves in the US) or because they are still developing as a human (as is a 12 year old girl sucking her thumb).


THIRD: WRONG DOESN'T CORRECT WRONG. You assert that "bad things happen but two wrongs do not make a right"; Frankly that is an easy position to take when YOU are not the one in the situation.


You didn't establish why two wrongs make a right. Why killing the most innocent one in the situation somehow makes it all good.

You seem to be defending the point I made: She's a human IF the mother wants her and she's not if the mother doesn't want her - so our species is defined by the degree of wantedness. Hitler didn't want the Jews, I don''t agree that therefore it was moral for him to kill them.



FOURTH: HUMAN RIGHTS.

You did not show how the elimination of the right to exist strengthens other rights. How is the right to free speech for example made more relevant if the person is dead? If Bob is dead, it doesn't seem to mean much that he has the right to free speech.... I still hold that all human rights depend entirely on the right to life, the right to exit, the right to be. To rip that right away makes the others irrelevant.



FIFTH: Your concerns are based in Christian theology, not everyone in your country is Christians. Should Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc have their reproductive rights affected because you want things a particular way?

I never mentioned Christian anything.

To apply your morality here, if an Atheist believes that rape is okay, you'd insist we can't force our morality upon him and he should be allowed to rape anyone he wants, and hey if his morality is also that it's okay to kill the woman (because she's not fully human) then we should insist, "Go for it." I don't think too many accept your morality there. Whether or not they are Christian.

Your view here comes lock, stock and barrel from the pro-slavery playbook. "What right does anyone have to tell a man whether he can own a slave or not?"



.
 
Last edited:

kiwimac

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Messages
186
Age
63
Location
Deepest, darkest NZ
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Utrecht
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Married
For that little one sucking her thumb in the ultrasound to not be Homo Sapiens, it needs to be scientifically proven she is some other species. For her to be a non-species, it must be shown there is no life.

So 2 minutes before the head appears at the birth canal, we don't have a human... we have.... what? A POTENTIAL human? How does the DNA change as the last cell of the last toe exits the birth canal?

How do you determine when a human has fulfilled their "potential?" Human potential is achieved as the last toe exits the birth canal? Quote to me the science that proves that.

I know a LOT of people in their 30's who seem (even claim) not to have reached their human potential. How does science prove when one has and thus become human?





Which is it? That little girl sucking her thumb in the ultrasound IS human or not? And does she have rights or not? You seem to argue both or neither or just confused.

It seems to me either you view her as a non-life (like a coffee cup?) or some OTHER species (a bunny rabbit)? OR you are insisting that some humans are lesser than other humans - perhaps because they are PROPERTY (like African slaves in the US) or because they are still developing as a human (as is a 12 year old girl sucking her thumb).





You didn't establish why two wrongs make a right. Why killing the most innocent one in the situation somehow makes it all good.

You seem to be defending the point I made: She's a human IF the mother wants her and she's not if the mother doesn't want her - so our species is defined by the degree of wantedness. Hitler didn't want the Jews, I don''t agree that therefore it was moral for him to kill them.





You did not show how the elimination of the right to exist strengthens other rights. How is the right to free speech for example made more relevant if the person is dead? If Bob is dead, it doesn't seem to mean much that he has the right to free speech.... I still hold that all human rights depend entirely on the right to life, the right to exit, the right to be. To rip that right away makes the others irrelevant.





I never mentioned Christian anything.

To apply your morality here, if an Atheist believes that rape is okay, you'd insist we can't force our morality upon him and he should be allowed to rape anyone he wants, and hey if his morality is also that it's okay to kill the woman (because she's not fully human) then we should insist, "Go for it." I don't think too many accept your morality there. Whether or not they are Christian.

Your view here comes lock, stock and barrel from the pro-slavery playbook. "What right does anyone have to tell a man whether he can own a slave or not?"



.
There are words for what you've written here. None of which I can mention here. It is, frankly, [staff edit]. Until a ZEF has made it through the vicissitudes of gestation it remains a potential. As for the "sucking it's thumb" nonsense most abortions take place long before there is a thumb to suck. Any taking place so late that there are recognisable features are medically mandated.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top Bottom