REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

Messy

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I thought only the pentecostal church was so extreme with producing faith as a work from yourself. I always imagined God standing there with a hygrometer when I asked Him for something. Ah too bad, not enough faith. Can't help you.
 

prism

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Peter says that He bought em, not they. They deny Him.

The guy from that link has good points.


But why would Christ pay for someone’s sins, if he knew that they would ultimately reject him? Why not just die for those he knew would receive the offer?​

We aren’t certain on how we should answer this objection, but we feel that our biblical exegesis should inform our view of God’s actions and plan. To put this another way, our philosophical speculation should not trump God’s revelation. At the end of the day, we don’t know God’s plans and desires; we need to depend on his revelation to us to understand this. And God’s revelation makes it clear that Christ died for the whole world—not just the elect.

the doctrine of limited atonement has severe practical problems. For instance, we could never tell someone with certainty that Christ died for them under this view, because we are not sure. As counselor Jay Adams writes, “As a Reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, for they cannot say that. No man knows except Christ himself who are his elect for whom he died.”[8] We feel that there is a major practical problem with this position, and we certainly never see this sort of approach in the NT (1 Cor. 15:3; Acts 3:26; Lk. 22:20-21). For these reasons, we hold that this doctrine should be abandoned.
This boils down to the meaning and tense of the word 'bought'.

the doctrine of limited atonement has severe practical problems. For instance, we could never tell someone with certainty that Christ died for them under this view, because we are not sure.
That wasn't a problem for the Apostles with their preaching in the Book of Acts. Not once did they specifically tell anyone that Christ died for your sins... not even to the Philippian jailor!...

Acts 16:30-31 ESV
Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" [31] And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
 

Albion

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This boils down to the meaning and tense of the word 'bought'.


That wasn't a problem for the Apostles with their preaching in the Book of Acts. Not once did they specifically tell anyone that Christ died for your sins... not even to the Philippian jailor!...
Why confine it to the Book of Acts? In 1 Corinthians, we have the Apostle reminding his listeners that they had been told exactly what you here wrote was not done.

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you...For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,..."

and there are also the following:


1 Thessalonians 5:10


Colossians 1:22


Colossians 1:21-22


Colossians 1:20

 
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prism

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Why confine it to the Book of Acts? In 1 Corinthians, we have the Apostle reminding his listeners that they had been told exactly what you here wrote was not done.

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you...For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,..."

and there are also the following:


1 Thessalonians 5:10


Colossians 1:22


Colossians 1:21-22


Colossians 1:20

First of all Acts is a living example of the PRESENTATION of the Gospel
and secondly Paul is using general terms like 'our sins' (1Cor 15:3) or pronouns like 'you' as he is addressing believers...not evangelizing.
 

Albion

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First of all Acts is a living example of the PRESENTATION of the Gospel
"Living example." Okay, but the claim was that "not once" did any of the Apostles present the fact of Christ dying for their sins to potential converts, and there is plenty of Scriptural evidence to the contrary. I did leave out from my reply a large number of verses that seem to be in that category but which are less definite than the ones mentioned.

and secondly Paul is using general terms like 'our sins' (1Cor 15:3) or pronouns like 'you' as he is addressing believers...not evangelizing.
What makes you say he was not evangelizing by giving a personal testimony? That's a standard technique even in our own time.
 

prism

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What makes you say he was not evangelizing by giving a personal testimony? That's a standard technique even in our own time.
He was addressing the Churches as if they were already saved, for example...
1 Corinthians 1:30 AMP
But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin],

1 Corinthians 6:11 NASB95
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
 
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brightfame52

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The extent of Christs Atoning Death was Gods Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Clearly set forth here by the Apostle !
 

Josiah

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The extent of Christs Atoning Death was Gods Elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Clearly set forth here by the Apostle !

Correct. Romans 8:33-34 does not show limited atonement. NOTHING here about Christ dying NOT for everyone (as the Bible repeatedly, verbatim, undeniably states) BUT ONLY for some.

If I say that President Biden is a human being, that does not prove that ONLY President Biden is a human being. Obviously.




.
 

Albion

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Correct. Romans 8:33-34 does not show limited atonement. NOTHING here about Christ dying NOT for everyone (as the Bible repeatedly, verbatim, undeniably states) BUT ONLY for some.

If I say that President Biden is a human being, that does not prove that ONLY President Biden is a human being. Obviously.
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Correct.

Too many people are looking at the word "elect" and immediately thinking of Calvin's interpretation (and that of other Calvinists) of that term. In reality, verse after verse uses it to mean those people who are believers in Christ as distinct from people who are unbelievers.
 
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