RANSOM FOR MANY OR ALL ?

[atpollard]

Let's say in my amazing grace I buy you a 2020 Corvette. Now have I done that? Yes. For you? Yes. But never do you sign the paperwork and pick up the keys or register the vehicle.

Can you prove that God ”bought a 2020 Corvette” for all of those “dead in your trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience ... living in the lusts of their flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and being by nature children of wrath” [Eph 2:1-2] and known by an omniscient God to remain so and face the second death? You seem to know the thoughts and intents of God in a way that Scripture says no man does.

You also make John 6:44 and John 10:25-30 out to be untrue. You claim that SOME that the Father draws will come and Jesus will raise SOME of them (only the ones that chose to come) on the last day. You claim that SOME of the sheep that the Father gave to Jesus will hear his voice and believe and follow Him, and SOME will become “not His sheep” because they chose not to believe, rather than not believing BECAUSE they are not His sheep (which the Father gave Him). Your analogy makes perfect sense, it just contradicts other scriptures that you prefer to ignore in your rants about the 16th Century.

I cannot tell you who Christ chose to die for, that is His business and not mine. I just know that Jesus said that there are some that are “His sheep” and others that he says He “never knew”.

 

[Josiah]

Can you prove that God ”bought a 2020 Corvette”

I think you evaded the point. Just because one purchased something doesn't mean all accept it. I think my illustration "holds."

You also make John 6:44 and John 10:25-30 out to be untrue.

No, I fully and completely accept them. But neither says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a FEW people and not most; your whole entire invention rests on "ONLY" but you can't find even one verse that remotely states that.

You claim that SOME that the Father draws will come and Jesus will raise SOME of them (only the ones that chose to come) on the last day.

Friend, you state what I claim, it's meaningless (and will be ignored) unless you quote me. I only claim what I state.

I state Jesus died for all. I've given the verses that state that. You have yet to state even one verse that states, "Nope, Jesus died for ONLY a minority of people." Yet that is your dogma, that's the entirely of it, the new invention of a few later-day radical Calvinists that you promote, it all rests on that ONLY. Where is the verse that states that? You can't find any; I think 99% of Christians know why.

I cannot tell you who Christ chose to die for

Just ONE of the many horrors of this new invention, you have NOTHING that indicates Jesus died for YOU. Dr. Cooper speaks of this HORROR in the video I told BBAS 64 about, indeed, one of the reasons he was "forced out" of Calvinism.





.

 

[Particular]

Would you please quote the verse(s) that state, "Jesus died only for the chosen people." You know, the invention in the 16th Century of a few radical Calvinists typically known as "LIMITED atonement."




.

Here are Jesus words. Tell me if Jesus died for all.

John 10:14-18,25-30
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.

This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Here we have two strikes against you.
1) Jesus tells us for whom he is dying. (Hint: it's not the whole world.)

2) A Christian cannot lose his salvation by choosing to reject the gift of faith.

However, I now expect you to ignore what I have quoted and you will move the goal posts.

 

[Particular]

Sin is of and within the world. We do not inherit a sin nature from Adam.By Adam sin entered the world not his ancestral human race.
If we are born sinners, then the newborn that dies hours after birth would be condemned to Hell.

Further, Ezekiel's teaching tells us that is not so. Not possible. When we are accountable for our choices and act contrary to the good, that is when we become accountable for our actions, sins. We are imperfect because sin entered the world through one man , due to one tree in the creation God looked upon and on the 6th day judged it all very good. We are not born sinners because if we were we'd be born damned by the will of God who gives life. And takes it away. All due to his will and zeal for his own glory. (all scripture)

Do you realize you are promoting part of Pelagian theology, which was condemned as heresy?

1) Adam was created mortal, and would have died, even if he had not sinned.
2) Adam’s fall injured himself alone, not the human race.
3) Children come into the world in the same condition in which Adam was before the fall.
4) The human race neither dies in consequence of Adam’s fall, nor rises again in consequence of Christ’s resurrection.
5) Unbaptized children, as well as others, are saved.
6) The law, as well as the gospel, leads to the kingdom of heaven. 7) Even before Christ there were sinless men.

The Pelagian Captivity of the Church – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

 

[Particular]

If we are born sinners, then the newborn that dies hours after birth would be condemned to Hell.

This would be true, if God chose not to be gracious. In this area, we must rest in God's Sovereign choice to extend grace. We have David's response to the death of his infant son as a reason to believe that God chooses to extend grace to infants just as he extends grace to others.

2 Samuel 12:22-23
He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Unless David is in hell, we have hope for infants.

Further, Ezekiel's teaching tells us that is not so. Not possible. When we are accountable for our choices and act contrary to the good, that is when we become accountable for our actions, sins. We are imperfect because sin entered the world through one man , due to one tree in the creation God looked upon and on the 6th day judged it all very good. We are not born sinners because if we were we'd be born damned by the will of God who gives life. And takes it away. All due to his will and zeal for his own glory. (all scripture)

I showed what Ezekiel was addressing. It has nothing to do with children.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

Do you realize you are promoting part of Pelagian theology, which was condemned as heresy?

1) Adam was created mortal, and would have died, even if he had not sinned.
2) Adam’s fall injured himself alone, not the human race.
3) Children come into the world in the same condition in which Adam was before the fall.
4) The human race neither dies in consequence of Adam’s fall, nor rises again in consequence of Christ’s resurrection.
5) Unbaptized children, as well as others, are saved.
6) The law, as well as the gospel, leads to the kingdom of heaven. 7) Even before Christ there were sinless men.

The Pelagian Captivity of the Church – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

www.apuritansmind.com

I would suggest someone who promotes Calvinism has no right to imply someone else is promoting a different heresy.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

This would be true, if God chose not to be gracious. In this area, we must rest in God's Sovereign choice to extend grace. We have David's response to the death of his infant son as a reason to believe that God chooses to extend grace to infants just as he extends grace to others.

2 Samuel 12:22-23
He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

I try to imagine the kind of God John Calvin worshiped . One that creates all things and judges it very good, after having predetermined sin would condemn that which was created human, and those condemned would only be saved by God's grace prior to the fall. While all other humans would come to exist predestined to go to Hell.
I am grateful gracefilled that I am not a Calvinist.

Unless David is in hell, we have hope for infants.

David and infants fate after death are mutually exclusive. When Jesus said we must become like little children to see the kingdom, I have no doubt every dead infants soul returned to the father that gave it. Just as the Father said happens to all who die. Ecclesiastes 12:7

I showed what Ezekiel was addressing. It has nothing to do with children.

You shared what you think Ezekiel is saying, based on your being predisposed to your belief in Calvin's doctrine. That does not mean you are correct or that God's word speaks as you read it.

EZEKIEL 18 – THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL SOUL


There's an old saying I wish I could have spoken to John Calvin personally. May you meet the God you believe you deserve.
Sadly, it is too late for John.

 

[Particular]

I would suggest someone who promotes Calvinism has no right to imply someone else is promoting a different heresy.

You can suggest that, but you would be ignoring the fact that Pelagian theology has been historically designated as a heresy while the doctrine of God's Sovereign Rule and Right to choice flows throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Particular]

I try to imagine the kind of God John Calvin worshiped . One that creates all things and judges it very good, after having predetermined sin would condemn that which was created human, and those condemned would only be saved by God's grace prior to the fall. While all other humans would come to exist predestined to go to Hell.
I am grateful gracefilled that I am not a Calvinist.

David and infants fate after death are mutually exclusive. When Jesus said we must become like little children to see the kingdom, I have no doubt every dead infants soul returned to the father that gave it. Just as the Father said happens to all who die. Ecclesiastes 12:7



You shared what you think Ezekiel is saying, based on your being predisposed to your belief in Calvin's doctrine. That does not mean you are correct or that God's word speaks as you read it.

EZEKIEL 18 – THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL SOUL


There's an old saying I wish I could have spoken to John Calvin personally. May you meet the God you believe you deserve.
Sadly, it is too late for John.

It's sad that you think it's about John Calvin when it's actually about God's word.

 

[Josiah]

@Particular;

John 10:14-18,25-30
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.

Your claim that Jesus states "I have died for ONLY a few" is not substantiated by the verses you give. As all can see. Ain't there.

Your new dogma all rests on the word ONLY. But you can't find even one verse on this that states that.

If I type, "I love my son" that does not prove that ergo I do not love my wife. Radical Calvinists LOVE to boast constantly of their great intelligence and superhuman logic but then prove..... It's quite stunning.

A Christian cannot lose his salvation.

You like to parrot the new denomination inventions of some radical Calvinists. But you have not one verse that says what they did. Indeed, when you are faced with MANY clear, bold, verbatim warnings to Christians about loosing their salvation, you MUST insist that YOU "interpret" the words so that YOU claim they MUST mean the exact opposite of what they state because the many, many, clear, obvious, verbatim words of Scripture just cannot be true. Your tradition has to be, and since so many Scriptures don't agree with it, well.... your need to spin them 180 degrees.

We'll wait for you to quote the Scriptures: "Jesus died for ONLY a few." "Christians cannot loose their salvation." You know, the new denomination tradition you parrot with not one verse to confirm such. Meanwhile, I'll accept what the BIBLE says and what 2000 years of Christianity has believed.




.





.

 

[Particular]

@Particular;





Your claim that Jesus states "I have died for ONLY a few" is not substantiated by the verses you give. As all can see. Ain't there.

Your new dogma all rests on the word ONLY. But you can't find even one verse on this that states that.

If I type, "I love my son" that does not prove that ergo I do not love my wife. Radical Calvinists LOVE to boast constantly of their great intelligence and superhuman logic but then prove..... It's quite stunning.






You like to parrot the new denomination inventions of some radical Calvinists. But you have not one verse that says what they did. Indeed, when you are faced with MANY clear, bold, verbatim warnings to Christians about loosing their salvation, you MUST insist that YOU "interpret" the words so that YOU claim they MUST mean the exact opposite of what they state because the many, many, clear, obvious, verbatim words of Scripture just cannot be true. Your tradition has to be, and since so many Scriptures don't agree with it, well.... your need to spin them 180 degrees.

We'll wait for you to quote the Scriptures: "Jesus died for ONLY a few." "Christians cannot loose their salvation." You know, the new denomination tradition you parrot with not one verse to confirm such. Meanwhile, I'll accept what the BIBLE says and what 2000 years of Christianity has believed.




.





.

Josiah, "for only a few" is your words...and your excuse.
Read John 10. Jesus certainly limits for whom he died. That is obvious. What is also obvious is that God the Father gives the elect to Jesus.
Nowhere does Jesus say "for only a few." Also, nowhere does Jesus say "for all humanity." We must both trust in the Sovereignty of God as the one who has full authority and right to choose. It is, after all, His Kingdom.
As for you mantra about 16th century blah, blah, blah, that is your crutch for ignoring God's word and Jesus in particular. That is entirely on you and not on any other person's. Presently, however, you refuse to take Jesus seriously on this matter.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

It's sad that you think it's about John Calvin when it's actually about God's word.

It's sadder that John Calvin thought to rearrange God's word to an elitist dispensational heresy.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

You can suggest that, but you would be ignoring the fact that Pelagian theology has been historically designated as a heresy while the doctrine of God's Sovereign Rule and Right to choice flows throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Your fixation on derailing this to Pelagius noted.
John Calvin's ideal god has not a thing to do with Christianity.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, "for only a few" is your words.

If Jesus died for ONLY the Elect - as Calvinist first said 500 years ago, and if the Elect are a few ("wide... narrow") as Calvinists first said 500 years ago, then Jesus died for ONLY a few. As radical Calvinist dogmatically state. You've been parroting this new denomination tradition since you came to this site, odd to see you run from it now.

Read John 10. Jesus certainly limits for whom he died. That is obvious.

Then you will underline where Jesus stated "ONLY" "FEW" "LIMITED NUMBER." I wonder why you don't?

No, Jesus says He died for the sheep. No one has ever disputed that;. It's your insistence that He said that He died ONLY for the sheep... this ONLY on which your entire point completely depends.... this ONLY that you prove Jesus NEVER said (or anyone else until Calvin came along), it's this ONLY on which your whole dogma rests, the ONLY that's missing, that can't show. Your apologetic falls entirely on its face. It's NOT obvious that Jesus said ONLY, it's obvious He did not.

If I said, "I love my son" that would NOT make it "obvious" that therefore I hate my wife.... it would NOT make it dogmatic proof that I cannot love my wife. Especially if I state over and over and over and over in other places that I DO love my wife.



1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

.... and many, many more that state the same reality.


Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."






.

 

[Lazy Suesun]

If Jesus died for ONLY the Elect - as Calvinist first said 500 years ago, and if the Elect are a few ("wide... narrow") as Calvinists first said 500 years ago, then Jesus died for ONLY a few. As radical Calvinist dogmatically state. You've been parroting this new denomination tradition since you came to this site, odd to see you run from it now.







Then you will underline where Jesus stated "ONLY" "FEW" "LIMITED NUMBER." I wonder why you don't?

No, Jesus says He died for the sheep. No one has ever disputed that;. It's your insistence that He said that He died ONLY for the sheep... this ONLY on which your entire point completely depends.... this ONLY that you prove Jesus NEVER said (or anyone else until Calvin came along), it's this ONLY on which your whole dogma rests, the ONLY that's missing, that can't show. Your apologetic falls entirely on its face. It's NOT obvious that Jesus said ONLY, it's obvious He did not.

If I said, "I love my son" that would NOT make it "obvious" that therefore I hate my wife.... it would NOT make it dogmatic proof that I cannot love my wife. Especially if I state over and over and over and over in other places that I DO love my wife.



1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

.... and many, many more that state the same reality.


Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."






.

Yes! Calvinism renounces the mission of Christ as described in John 3:16 and with particular respect to, "whosoever", in the English translation of the Koine (Common) Greek text, pas.
πᾶς (pas)
Strong: G3956

GK: G4246

all; in the sg. the whole, entire, usually when the substantive has the article, Mt. 6:29; 8:32; Acts 19:26; every, only with an anarthrous subst., Mt. 3:10; 4:4; pl. all, Mt. 1:17, et al. freq.; πάντα, in all respects, Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25; 10:33; 11:2; by a Hebraism, a negative with πᾶς is sometimes equivalent to οὐδείς or μηδείς, Mt. 24:22; Lk. 1:37; Acts 10:14; Rom. 3:20; 1 Cor. 1:29; Eph. 4:29


I think that it is necessary also for those not familiar with Calvinism to review its contextual subset referred to as "Reformed Theology", the "Reformed Faith", " Reformed Protestantism " or Augustinianism. Its doctrine is compiled in a formula known as T.U.L.I.P.
T – Total depravity
Adam and Eve sinned, and because of their sin all mankind is now sinful. Man is completely unable to save himself.

U – Unconditional election
God has chosen for Himself a particular group of people: His Bride, His church. His choice was not based on looking down the portals of time – because God is all knowing.

L – Limited atonement
Christ died on the cross for His people. It was Christ’s death on the cross that secured everything necessary for the salvation of His Bride, including the gift of faith bestowed to them by the Holy Spirit.

I – Irresistible grace
We do not know when a person will answer the call of the Holy Spirit. This is why evangelism is so important. The Holy Spirit will at some point in the life of the Elect will place a special inward call that will inevitably bring them to salvation. Man cannot turn this call away – he does not want to.

P – Perseverance of the saints
The Elect, those chosen by God, can never loose their salvation. They are kept safe by the power of the Almighty.

 

[Particular]

It's sadder that John Calvin thought to rearrange God's word to an elitist dispensational heresy.

He didn't.
Calvin never added or removed words. Nor did he rearrange them. Where did you read that, or is this the prejudism you have been given that is based in a lie?

Calvin merely observed the Bible, just like you and I observe the Bible. Calvin wasn't the first one to observe God's Sovereignty as King over all and I will not be the last to observe God's Sovereignty as King over all.

Lazy, it is incumbent on you to prove your assertion. Please show documentation that John Calvin "rearranged God's word to an elitist dispensational heresy." (You do realize that dispensationalism is only 150 years old and Calvin lived 500 years ago?)

 

[Particular]

If Jesus died for ONLY the Elect - as Calvinist first said 500 years ago, and if the Elect are a few ("wide... narrow") as Calvinists first said 500 years ago, then Jesus died for ONLY a few.

If Jesus died for all humanity, then all humanity is found in Christ and all are made holy. You must, therefore be a radical universalist.

As radical Calvinist dogmatically state. You've been parroting this new denomination tradition since you came to this site, odd to see you run from it now.

This is your crutch. You still avoid Jesus own words. Why do you avoid Jesus, Josiah?

Then you will underline where Jesus stated "ONLY" "FEW" "LIMITED NUMBER." I wonder why you don't?

This is your crutch. You demand that God speak your phrases, while you avoid what Jesus actually says. Why do you reject what Jesus tells you, Josiah?

No, Jesus says He died for the sheep. No one has ever disputed that;. It's your insistence that He said that He died ONLY for the sheep... this ONLY on which your entire point completely depends.... this ONLY that you prove Jesus NEVER said (or anyone else until Calvin came along), it's this ONLY on which your whole dogma rests, the ONLY that's missing, that can't show. Your apologetic falls entirely on its face. It's NOT obvious that Jesus said ONLY, it's obvious He did not.

Where does Jesus say he died for the goats?
Again, if Jesus atonement is effectual for all, then all humanity is made perfect and holy.
Josiah, you hide your head in the sand and ignore the fact that you must either be a universalist or you must preach that Jesus atonement is too weak to save all for whom he died. God is beaten by human willpower and rebellion.
Those are your two alternatives. I know you pick the God is weak version because you teach it when you claim that humans can leave God at any time after being given the gift of faith.

If I said, "I love my son" that would NOT make it "obvious" that therefore I hate my wife.... it would NOT make it dogmatic proof that I cannot love my wife. Especially if I state over and over and over and over in other places that I DO love my wife.

Josiah, do you ignore Romans 9?

Romans 9:10-11,13-16 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

1 John 2:2

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

.... and many, many more that state the same reality.

Josiah, we've gone over these verses, ad nauseum, and you have been shown the context. You couldn't care less about context. Instead, you quote a sentence from the Bible, out of context, call it Sola Scriptura, and think you have made an argument. (You use scripture like Satan uses scripture) You have been instructed in these passages, yet you insist on your abuse. I will not repeat all that has been said to prove your abuse once again. It seems you will just keep treating God's word with disdainful lack of context.

Let's see the verse that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few."

Josiah, I have quoted John 6, John 10 and John 17. You reject them because God didn't use the exact phrase you want.
I can point you to Romans 3, Romans 8, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and 2 and many other passages (not just a sentence) that tell us of God's Sovereignty and authority in choosing. In fact, I have done so in the past. Yet you parrot your sola lutherana and refuse to open your Bible and have God persuade you.

Now, I implore you to do a word search in the Bible. Search for these words and get back to us.

Chosen

Elect

Predestined

Let me know what you find.

 

[Josiah]

If Jesus died for all humanity, then all humanity is found in Christ and all are made holy. You must, therefore be a radical universalist.

WRONG!

I repudiate your rejection of faith.

I reject your repudiation of the biblical doctrine of Justification (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide).

I condemn your view that faith is irrelevant and thus if Jesus died for you, you are thus justified regardless of whether you have faith or not, whether one is a pagan atheist or a Muslim.

You are simply revealing just ONE of the horrible aspects of this denomination tradition you parrot constantly, the reason why so much of radical Calvinism ended up in universalism. Indeed, there are MANY Universalist churches all over the world that were once radical Calvinists churches and became Universalist because of the same error you make.

Romans 9:10-11,13-16 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Interesting... you OCCASIONALLY quote Scripture to show that this horrible denomination tradition you parrot is entirely missing in Scripture. We already know that. IF you have a verse that stated, "Jesus died ONLY for some unknowable few" then you would have quoted it months ago, but you have NOTHING that teaches what you do.... and you prove that. It doesn't strengthen your position.




Here's some one of the Scriptures that flat out, verbatim, contradict the horrible denomination tradition you endlessly parrot. Just a few. There are many more.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

.... and many, many more that state the same reality.


Let's see the verse(s) that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few." Until then, I'm going to accept what God says and not this horrible denomination tradition invented 500 years ago out of thin air by a few radical Calvinists.




- Josiah




.

 

[hedrick]

Ive often thought that there’s an ambiguity in what “die for” actually means, and that Lutherans and Calvinists are using different definitions,

 

[Particular]

WRONG!

I repudiate your rejection of faith.

I reject your repudiation of the biblical doctrine of Justification (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide).

I condemn your view that faith is irrelevant and thus if Jesus died for you, you are thus justified regardless of whether you have faith or not, whether one is a pagan atheist or a Muslim.

You are simply revealing just ONE of the horrible aspects of this denomination tradition you parrot constantly, the reason why so much of radical Calvinism ended up in universalism. Indeed, there are MANY Universalist churches all over the world that were once radical Calvinists churches and became Universalist because of the same error you make.







Interesting... you OCCASIONALLY quote Scripture to show that this horrible denomination tradition you parrot is entirely missing in Scripture. We already know that. IF you have a verse that stated, "Jesus died ONLY for some unknowable few" then you would have quoted it months ago, but you have NOTHING that teaches what you do.... and you prove that. It doesn't strengthen your position.




Here's some one of the Scriptures that flat out, verbatim, contradict the horrible denomination tradition you endlessly parrot. Just a few. There are many more.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all

2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all.

.... and many, many more that state the same reality.


Let's see the verse(s) that states, "Jesus did NOT die for all people but ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY for an unknowable few." Until then, I'm going to accept what God says and not this horrible denomination tradition invented 500 years ago out of thin air by a few radical Calvinists.




- Josiah




.

Josiah, please, just once quote an entire passage so you see that context does not confirm your assertion. This would help you and others.
Your assertions of what I present in scripture as being a rejection of faith and the solas is laughable and false. You have an amazing crutch of sola lutherana that ultimately rejects scripture and holds to poorly constructed Lutheran traditions. As long as you refuse to let scripture be first and foremost over lutheranism, you will have erected an obstacle to biblical truth in your life.
Second, not once do I go to John Calvin as my source of knowledge. I always go directly to God's word and to an entire passage so that the reader can see the whole of what God is saying. It amazes me that you reject the whole of scripture and consistently mimic a falsehood that I am quoting a Reformer whom your leader, Martin Luther, disagreed with, mainly because Luther was still tied by the umbilical cord to Rome, despite firmly understanding justification by faith.
Now, are you going to take the full council of God or will you continue to quote sentences out of context to prop up your false assertions and then claim you are holding to the solas while saying I am not?
Your incapacity to accept the whole of scripture is obvious to all who read this thread. You have rejected the whole in order to cling to parts that are cut off from the whole by your lutherana tradition. Until you purpose in your heart to let the whole of scripture guide you, rather than your lutherana, you will have a stumbling stone to your faith. The choice is yours. Is the unbiased truth of God's word more valuable to you than your lutheran traditions?