Purgatory?

[MoreCoffee]

...
What you and MC are doing is to add works to salvation, which is anathema.
...

It is evident from your posts that you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[MennoSota]

Notice this passage

Ephesians 2:1-10 You were dead through the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. (3) All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us (5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God-- (9) not the result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
​

Good works are a blessing of God's grace they are not something to be ashamed of nor to be avoided. Catholics teach that good works are grace given

426. What is merit?

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.​

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.​

​

Notice how good works are an effect of God's grace and the gift of faith as expressed in verses 8-9? This isn't difficult, yet you seem completely blind to grace while claiming your works to be grace.
As for your quoting anything from your catechism...don't waste my time with Rome's eisegesis.

 

[MennoSota]

It is evident from your posts that you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches.

It is evident from your posts that you ignore scripture and cling to the chains of Rome. You are really no different than a Muslim who is trying to please Allah.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...don't waste my time with Rome's ...

Okay, I will not respond to your posts on this matter.

 

[Albion]

Except that the Catholic Church does not teach that any works earn salvation.

It certainly does--UNLESS you've elected to obscure the issue through a very careful choice of wording.

No, works alone will not save (unless the unofficial opinion of several of the most recent popes and the consensus of Catholic laymen is accepted as a de facto belief of the Catholic Church, i.e. that "good" pagans can be saved even if they've never heard of Jesus), BUT works are deemed necessary, along with faith, for our salvation, so both of the two are effective in bringing it about.

 

[Imalive]

Not blind. We are very aware of God's work of sanctification in our lives and our response to God's work.
What you and MC are doing is to add works to salvation, which is anathema.
You may be teaching such works merely because you are ignorant, yet upon being corrected you continue in your ignorance.

Add works? If God tells you to stop doing something and you listen, you add works? Well so be it. The Bible says don't be mislead. Gods grace doesn't magically make me get out of bed in the morning to pray for ppl. How His grace works if I'm lukewarm, read revelations. Repent or I remove your candle. Sounds very much like working together w Him. He works it in us, but not automatically.

 

[MennoSota]

Okay, I will not respond to your posts on this matter.

Great. The teachings of a church must always be subject to scripture and it's teaching. Your church routinely abuses scripture to create a false doctrine. It is exactly what Muslims do.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It certainly does--UNLESS you've elected to obscure the issue through a very careful choice of wording.

No, works alone will not save (unless the unofficial opinion of several of the most recent popes and the consensus of Catholic laymen is accepted as a de facto belief of the Catholic Church, i.e. that "good" pagans can be saved even if they've never heard of Jesus), BUT works are deemed necessary, along with faith, for our salvation, so both of the two are effective in bringing it about.

Good works are a blessing of God's grace they are not something to be ashamed of nor to be avoided. Catholics teach that good works are grace given

426. What is merit?

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.​

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.​

​

-- Compendium OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

 

[Imalive]

Great. The teachings of a church must always be subject to scripture and it's teaching. Your church routinely abuses scripture to create a false doctrine. It is exactly what Muslims do.

and most churches. I haven't seen one that has it all right.
Lot of those muslims get saved now and give their life for the gospel. They know what it is to give your all.

 

[Albion]

Good works are a blessing of God's grace they are not something to be ashamed of nor to be avoided. Catholics teach that good works are grace given

426. What is merit?

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.​

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life​

​

. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.​

​

-- Compendium OF THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

What I said.
:smile:

 

[Imalive]

What I said.
:smile:

I believe you get saved and get eternal life in an instant, but then you have to abide in Him or He cuts you off and if you dont pray for others they can go to hell if everyones too lazy to pray and if you dont preach and there are no labourers ppl dont get saved. So theyre right w that.

 

[Lamb]

I believe you get saved and get eternal life in an instant, but then you have to abide in Him or He cuts you off and if you dont pray for others they can go to hell if everyones too lazy to pray and if you dont preach and there are no labourers ppl dont get saved. So theyre right w that.

"Lo, I am with you always..." Matthew 28:20 He doesn't cut you off because you sin. If you abandon faith, you leave willingly.

 

[Albion]

I believe you get saved and get eternal life in an instant, but then you have to abide in Him or He cuts you off...

That, however, deals with Eternal Security (OSAS) or the lack of it, depending on how one believes. When it comes to the question of whether or not doing good deeds earns you salvation (in tandem with faith), what you say here doesn't seem to me to address the issue.

What Lamm said here appears to me to make approximately the same point I'm making.

He doesn't cut you off because you sin. If you abandon faith, you leave willingly.

Where is there any affirmation or denunciation of the idea of works righteousness?

 

[Imalive]

"Lo, I am with you always..." Matthew 28:20 He doesn't cut you off because you sin. If you abandon faith, you leave willingly.

Yes, but abandon the faith is not just saying that you dont believe in Jesus anymore, if someone doesn't take care of his household they have abandoned the faith for instance. So many ppl are mislead. Yes if you sin, confess your sin and He forgives, but if you stay in it and live in it, some ppl refuse to forgive others for years and not even on their death bed, then they don't go to heaven.

 

[MennoSota]

Add works? If God tells you to stop doing something and you listen, you add works? Well so be it. The Bible says don't be mislead. Gods grace doesn't magically make me get out of bed in the morning to pray for ppl. How His grace works if I'm lukewarm, read revelations. Repent or I remove your candle. Sounds very much like working together w Him. He works it in us, but not automatically.

Again, you confuse sanctification with salvation. These are two different things. Until you grasp this, you will be confused.

 

[Lamb]

Yes, but abandon the faith is not just saying that you dont believe in Jesus anymore, if someone doesn't take care of his household they have abandoned the faith for instance. So many ppl are mislead. Yes if you sin, confess your sin and He forgives, but if you stay in it and live in it, some ppl refuse to forgive others for years and not even on their death bed, then they don't go to heaven.

We WILL sin as we live out our lives. That's not to encourage sin but to acknowledge who we are. The Holy Spirit uses the Law to condemn us of those sins we commit and makes us sorry for them. Then He gives us the Gospel, that Jesus forgives us and will continue to forgive us. That's what being a Christian is about. Comfort in Jesus when we're in despair.

For those who continue to live in sin, we are our brother's keeper and should tell them that they are in danger of falling from faith by continuing in sin. Once it sinks in then we tell them of Jesus' forgiveness. Law/Gospel.

 

[MennoSota]

and most churches. I haven't seen one that has it all right.
Lot of those muslims get saved now and give their life for the gospel. They know what it is to give your all.

Indeed, many former Muslims have been chosen by God unto salvation. By God's grace, apart from any works, they are saved...just as it is for anyone who is adopted by God.
The comparison I make between Muslims and the Roman church is that both require good works to merit God's (Allah's) favor. They both reject unmerited favor. They reject grace.
The Roman church redefines grace to mean something that the Greek word, charis, does not mean. They turn unmerited favor into merited works...but the call it grace anyways. It's an outright lie by the Roman church, yet MC clings to it...because the church...

 

[Imalive]

Indeed, many former Muslims have been chosen by God unto salvation. By God's grace, apart from any works, they are saved...just as it is for anyone who is adopted by God.
The comparison I make between Muslims and the Roman church is that both require good works to merit God's (Allah's) favor. They both reject unmerited favor. They reject grace.
The Roman church redefines grace to mean something that the Greek word, charis, does not mean. They turn unmerited favor into merited works...but the call it grace anyways. It's an outright lie by the Roman church, yet MC clings to it...because the church...

I don't even know what they teach. You aren't saved yet but by doing works by grace you attain eternal life? Or: you are saved and watch out you don't fall away, work out your salvation, like Philippians says.
First thing isn't true. We are seated w Christ in the heavenlies already, transferred from the kingdom of darkness to His Kingdom, made alive. If that wasn't true, there's no way you could work your way to heaven. Then you still are still a slave to sin.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't even know what they teach. You aren't saved yet but by doing works by grace you attain eternal life? Or: you are saved and watch out you don't fall away, work out your salvation, like Philippians says.

You really misuse this verse in Philipians. Go study this passage because it isn't saying what you are saying.

First thing isn't true. We are seated w Christ in the heavenlies already, transferred from the kingdom of darkness to His Kingdom, made alive. If that wasn't true, there's no way you could work your way to heaven. Then you still are still a slave to sin.

You are talking post salvation and referring to sanctification.

Why are you so confused?

 

[Imalive]

You really misuse this verse in Philipians. Go study this passage because it isn't saying what you are saying.

You are talking post salvation and referring to sanctification.

Why are you so confused?

Post salvation is sanctification is working out your salvation, otherwise he wouldn't warn. I'm not confused at all. Paul warns believers. Without sanctification you can lose salvation. I might write confusing though. I wondered what they taught.

Hebrews 12

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.bib...?search=Hebrews+12&version=NKJV&interface=amp