Problems with the Reformation

[Lamb]

Reformation Day is October 31st but this year it is observed October 25th in the churches that celebrate it. It's not a celebration of Martin Luther but instead the change from what the Roman Catholic church was enforcing (indulgences) and back onto the Savior and the Gospel of the cross/forgiveness of sins.

Some churches say that the Reformation didn't take things far enough away from the Catholics.

Catholics say that it took things too far.

Where do you side?

 

[psalms 91]

On the side of truth whereever that may be, obviously I do not agree with a lot of the practices of the Catholic church

 

[Josiah]

Reformation Day is October 31st but this year it is observed October 25th in the churches that celebrate it. It's not a celebration of Martin Luther but instead the change from what the Roman Catholic church was enforcing (indulgences) and back onto the Savior and the Gospel of the cross/forgiveness of sins.

Some churches say that the Reformation didn't take things far enough away from the Catholics.

Catholics say that it took things too far.

Where do you side?

Lutheranism, lol

 

[Hammster]

Reformation Day is October 31st but this year it is observed October 25th in the churches that celebrate it. It's not a celebration of Martin Luther but instead the change from what the Roman Catholic church was enforcing (indulgences) and back onto the Savior and the Gospel of the cross/forgiveness of sins.

Some churches say that the Reformation didn't take things far enough away from the Catholics.

Catholics say that it took things too far.

Where do you side?

On some secondary issues I don't think some denominations go far enough. But also, most Protestants don't even realize what the protest is. They think it's about Mary and things like that. They would actually be close to the RCC on a lot of issues.

 

[Josiah]

On some secondary issues I don't think some denominations go far enough. But also, most Protestants don't even realize what the protest is. They think it's about Mary and things like that. They would actually be close to the RCC on a lot of issues.

I agree..... I usually avoid this point at ecumenical sites, but IMO, MUCH of Protestantism is actually a return to Rome....

Some years ago, when I was an undergrad, I took a history course entitled, "Revolution." I was not a history major or minor but I needed some core credits and I didn't want to take yet another rehash of US history, so I got prof approval for this upper division course. We looked at a lot of them in history (especially the French, American and Russian) but one of the themes I learned is that revolution USUALLY goes pretty much full circle - it tends to "overshoot" the mark, become radical, and often end up largely where it was (albeit repackaged). ONE of the things the class noted that the American Revolution mostly avoided this (although the new US taxed people more than the English had!). Anyway, when I look at the Protestant REformation (a kind of revolution), I see that principle. Luther and Calvin were "protesting" the pride, the individualism, the institutionalism, the "God speaks and leads only ME" stuff, the "I'M infallible" stuff, the emphasis on what SELF does and feels in justification..... ironically, as I listen to much of modern Protestantism, it often seems to ME to largely be medival Catholicism repackaged. Indeed, in some ways, I'm actually MORE comfortable with modern Catholicism (at least as it usually exists, not the uber, radical forms we often see from CAtholics on the 'net).... I actually prefer the RCC emphasis on a life of love empowered solely by God to the "I choose God, I surrender the steering wheel of my life, I do the good work of faith" repackage.


IMO, Lutheranism kept the focus and the message: not going full circle. I believe the same about Calvinism (although I think it embraced too much rationalism, "logic") and largely very conservative Anglicanism. But the "second wave" Protestantism (with roots to Anabaptist movement) .... well..... that class comes to mind.


Just my half cent.



Pax



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Seriously....


HERE is the problem that the Reformation did NOT address, solve..... Arbitration.


Luther and Calvin RIGHTLY brought back Justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. And I praise God for that! They brought back some sense of humility and community - and I praise God for that, too. And (as all who know me realize), I'm pretty passionate about accountability and Sola Scriptura (the Rule of Scripture) which Luther and Calvin also brought back.

Here's the problem: Resolving disputes requires THREE things: Accountability (all "sides" need to accept they could be wrong), a common Rule - Standard - Plumline - norma normans (THE single issue of Sola Scriptura) - both things Luther and Calvin stressed (praise God). BUT there's a third part: arbitration. Some mutually agreed upon process whereby those in the dispute can resolve which position "measures up" to the "measuring stick" , the rule, the canon. While Luther often spoke of Ecumenical Councils (he called for one throughout the Reformation to resolve the disputes with the Roman Church), he couldn't actually make that happen. Now, some (just some!) INDIVIDUAL DENOMINATIONS are good at arbitration for that single denomination (WELS just for WELS for example) but very rarely beyond that - nothing ecumenical. This is part of the reason why Protestantism has produced so many denominations - the dispute can't be r esolved, we have no common useful arbitrative process. The RC "hangs" better not because it is better at arbitration (it's most certainly NOT - it may well be worse than in most Protestant churchs) but because it relies on SUBMISSION, not agreement. Luther WANTED to restore Ecumenical Councils (the last ended around 800 AD) but that never happened. IMO, this is a problem with the Reformation, where the Reformation failed.



MY half cent.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Reformation Day is October 31st but this year it is observed October 25th in the churches that celebrate it. It's not a celebration of Martin Luther but instead the change from what the Roman Catholic church was enforcing (indulgences)

Enforcing on whom? As far as I am aware even the most ignorant and gullible would not likely have believed that they were compelled by external forces to obtain indulgences. I think that the idea of enforcement is quite inaccurate and misleading, where did you get it?

and back onto the Savior and the Gospel of the cross/forgiveness of sins.

If you read the literature of the times and check what the Church taught about forgiveness of sins it would be very hard to characterise it as anything but reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ and God's grace. Even the worst abuses of indulgences (such as was alleged against Johann Tetzel) did not teach forgiveness of sins by means of indulgences. Sins are forgiven by God not by an indulgence written on paper.

Some churches say that the Reformation didn't take things far enough away from the Catholics.

Catholics say that it took things too far.

Where do you side?

The Protestant revolt took religion and managed to create wars and persecutions and violence from both those in revolt and those opposing them; it was a religious movement that almost immediately became the play thing of high statecraft and politics. I do not think going further or less far was on the table (so to speak) and God in his providence has brought us to where we are through this revolt (and other things). Perhaps there was a kind of inevitability to it. Certainly the Catholic Church at that time was in need of reform and reform came and continues to this day.

 

[visionary]

Seriously....


HERE is the problem that the Reformation did NOT address, solve..... Arbitration.


Luther and Calvin RIGHTLY brought back Justification: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. And I praise God for that! They brought back some sense of humility and community - and I praise God for that, too. And (as all who know me realize), I'm pretty passionate about accountability and Sola Scriptura (the Rule of Scripture) which Luther and Calvin also brought back.

Here's the problem: Resolving disputes requires THREE things: Accountability (all "sides" need to accept they could be wrong), a common Rule - Standard - Plumline - norma normans (THE single issue of Sola Scriptura) - both things Luther and Calvin stressed (praise God). BUT there's a third part: arbitration. .....<snipped for brevity>....
Pax
- Josiah.

Arbitration is not the answer. Who is the chosen official who has final say in the matter? Who chose this official and for what agenda benefit? Arbitration also insinuates reconciliation. Reconciliation at what cost? Who compromised for peace?

 

[Josiah]

Arbitration is not the answer. Who is the chosen official who has final say in the matter?

Well, THAT would be arbitration - but the kind we see in the RCC, LDS, etc.: "I'M incapable of being wrong so when I'M claiming I can't be wrong, I'M incapable of being wrong, thus I'M not wrong - everyone else is." Or.... "I'M the Authority, the Mouth of God, THE infallible student of God, THE infallible follower of God, when I'M speaking ergo God must agree with ME or God would be wrong, so like God, just swallow whole whatever I'M saying then you too won't be wrong." Frankly, that doesn't get us very far.... IMO what you are saying simply displaces the issue of truth with the claims of self for unmitigated power, lording it over others as the Gentiles do. This is ONE of the reasons I left the RCC.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[Hebrews 11]

Enforcing on whom? As far as I am aware even the most ignorant and gullible would not likely have believed that they were compelled by external forces to obtain indulgences. I think that the idea of enforcement is quite inaccurate and misleading, where did you get it?


If you read the literature of the times and check what the Church taught about forgiveness of sins it would be very hard to characterise it as anything but reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ and God's grace. Even the worst abuses of indulgences (such as was alleged against Johann Tetzel) did not teach forgiveness of sins by means of indulgences. Sins are forgiven by God not by an indulgence written on paper.



The Protestant revolt took religion and managed to create wars and persecutions and violence from both those in revolt and those opposing them; it was a religious movement that almost immediately became the play thing of high statecraft and politics. I do not think going further or less far was on the table (so to speak) and God in his providence has brought us to where we are through this revolt (and other things). Perhaps there was a kind of inevitability to it. Certainly the Catholic Church at that time was in need of reform and reform came and continues to this day.

That is incredibly pious, to actually teach.
Need I remind you of the crusades the dark ages or the Spanish inquisition.

The Reformation brought the world out of the Dark Ages,
It allowed for economic growth through free trade apart from the Roman dominated world economy, the Reformation brought God's word to the people void of influence from the Church.
The Roman Catholic Empire, did its best to kill anyone who translated the Vulgate,they went so far as to dig up a dead man and destroy his body.
That man was Wycliffe.

Who wouldent revolt from this type of opression?

 

[visionary]

The reformation brought us the freedom in faith that was necessary for many enlightenments that have happened since. While we may point out that they didn't go far enough, fast enough, were thorough enough, our shepherd knows His sheep and gentle encourages us forward in faith. We are grateful for those who were before us, brave to face threats of death to keep each new step in faith. "justification by faith" was a milestone for Luther. Thank the Lord, he took that small step for mankind. It was a giant leap of faith with implications that still inspire millions to move forward in faith. Many untold, unknown heroes in faith had contributed to the freedom we have today. TO all of them I wish to say thank you.

 

[Tigger]

The reformation brought us the freedom in faith that was necessary for many enlightenments that have happened since. While we may point out that they didn't go far enough, fast enough, were thorough enough, our shepherd knows His sheep and gentle encourages us forward in faith. We are grateful for those who were before us, brave to face threats of death to keep each new step in faith. "justification by faith" was a milestone for Luther. Thank the Lord, he took that small step for mankind. It was a giant leap of faith with implications that still inspire millions to move forward in faith. Many untold, unknown heroes in faith had contributed to the freedom we have today. TO all of them I wish to say thank you.

Amen!

 

[psalms 91]

The reformation brought us the freedom in faith that was necessary for many enlightenments that have happened since. While we may point out that they didn't go far enough, fast enough, were thorough enough, our shepherd knows His sheep and gentle encourages us forward in faith. We are grateful for those who were before us, brave to face threats of death to keep each new step in faith. "justification by faith" was a milestone for Luther. Thank the Lord, he took that small step for mankind. It was a giant leap of faith with implications that still inspire millions to move forward in faith. Many untold, unknown heroes in faith had contributed to the freedom we have today. TO all of them I wish to say thank you.

Also amen

 

[Josiah]

The reformation brought us the freedom in faith that was necessary for many enlightenments that have happened since. While we may point out that they didn't go far enough, fast enough, were thorough enough, our shepherd knows His sheep and gentle encourages us forward in faith. We are grateful for those who were before us, brave to face threats of death to keep each new step in faith. "justification by faith" was a milestone for Luther. Thank the Lord, he took that small step for mankind. It was a giant leap of faith with implications that still inspire millions to move forward in faith. Many untold, unknown heroes in faith had contributed to the freedom we have today. TO all of them I wish to say thank you.

I disagree. THAT was something both Luther and Calvin condemned. This "individualistic" Christianity is, IMO, the antithesis of the Protestant embrace of the church as US, not ME.

Sadly.... tragically..... IMO..... some took the Reformation and radicalized it, in some ways taking Protestantism back to the very thing Luther and Calvin protested.


Just my half cent.



Pax


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

I disagree. THAT was something both Luther and Calvin condemned. This "individualistic" Christianity is, IMO, the antithesis of the Protestant embrace of the church as US, not ME.

Sadly.... tragically..... IMO..... some took the Reformation and radicalized it, in some ways taking Protestantism back to the very thing Luther and Calvin protested.


Just my half cent.



Pax


- Josiah

I am not seeing how Visionary's post was individualistic. Could you explain the connection

 

[visionary]

I disagree. THAT was something both Luther and Calvin condemned. This "individualistic" Christianity is, IMO, the antithesis of the Protestant embrace of the church as US, not ME.

Sadly.... tragically..... IMO..... some took the Reformation and radicalized it, in some ways taking Protestantism back to the very thing Luther and Calvin protested.


Just my half cent.



Pax


- Josiah

Not worried about what Luther or Calvin wanted or condemned so much as I am about inspirations from God and where they lead me. Others will hear His voice and will follow him. It will be a remnant, so I am not surprised that it seems to be individualistic rather than a collective. But the gathering of the wheat from the tares happens not be human enterprise but by God's hand.

 

[psalms 91]

Not worried about what Luther or Calvin wanted or condemned so much as I am about inspirations from God and where they lead me. Others will hear His voice and will follow him. It will be a remnant, so I am not surprised that it seems to be individualistic rather than a collective. But the gathering of the wheat from the tares happens not be human enterprise but by God's hand.

Amen, hearing God is a rare commodity today it seems

 

[Lamb]

Amen, hearing God is a rare commodity today it seems

Too many tend to listen where He doesn't guarantee to be speaking, thus, creating new doctrines that aren't biblical.

God promised us where we'd find Him, in His Word. There's the guarantee.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes that is the Logos, but what about the Rhema, how can God direct you in a situation if He doesnt speak? God doesnt change so He still speaks today

 

[visionary]

You have to experience to believe and understand it. He is as real as the day He came to visit with Joshua, Moses, Abraham, etc.