Predestination vs. Free Will

[pinacled]

Wrote the Pentateuch.

By who's guidance?

 

[pinacled]

Wrote the Pentateuch.

And who is The author of The Torah?

 

[pinacled]

In the very scripture you cited Reuben turned them away from murder.
While collectively sitting together and eating a discussion of what course of action to take next ensued. During such time yosef was stole away by the midianites and sold to the ishmalites.

The fact that yosef was stripped of his garment is the likeliness for him not being recognized as a hebrew by the ishmalites. And in consideration of the overall circumstances its also likely yosef went willingly(of his own free will) and did not reveal his heritage to either tribe.

And as is further stated the elders of the respective tribes decided to return to their father with a cruel explaination of yosefs demise.
What ever their motives were for doing so is speculation on the reader of the account.
Something of which is not proper exegesis or PaRDeS.

Blessings Always

For those who are seeking The Kingdom whole heartedly.
May your journey be blessed in finding The Lord Yeshua in all of the holy scriptures of Torah.

Take note of the free will of Yeshua who went of his own volition similar to yosef in his circumstance.
What stands out to me is the scarlet thread/robe.

Garments removed.

[ "The governor’s soldiers took Yeshua into the headquarters building, and the whole battalion gathered around him. 28 They stripped off his clothes and put on him a scarlet robe, 29 wove thorn-branches into a crown and put it on his head, and put a stick in his right hand. Then they kneeled down in front of him and made fun of him: “Hail to the King of the Jews!” 30 They spit on him and used the stick to beat him about the head. 31 When they had finished ridiculing him, they took off the robe, put his own clothes back on him and led him away to be nailed to the execution-stake."]


Blessings Always

 

[atpollard]

By who's guidance?

And who is The author of The Torah?

Are you attempting to convince my that God made the error in Genesis rather than Moses who wrote it down, or are you just being divisive for the sake of being divisive?


haec commone testificans coram Domino noli verbis contendere in nihil utile ad subversionem audientium

 

[pinacled]

Are you attempting to convince my that God made the error in Genesis rather than Moses who wrote it down, or are you just being divisive for the sake of being divisive?


haec commone testificans coram Domino noli verbis contendere in nihil utile ad subversionem audientium

What error are you referring to?

I found only Truth within The testimony of Torah.
Whereas your statement that yosefs brothers sold him into slavery is the only error I made notation of so that the readers would know the Truth.
And it is you that has a chance now to repent and publicly recant what you falesly accused yosefs brothers of committing.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

[Genesis 37:18-36 NASB]
18 When they saw him from a distance and before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death.
(Is it good or evil to plot murder?)

19 They said to one another, "Here comes this dreamer! 20 "Now then, come and let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits; and we will say, 'A wild beast devoured him.' Then let us see what will become of his dreams!"
(Is it good or evil to be consumed with jealousy? with hatred? to plot murder and lies to hide the act?)

21 But Reuben heard [this] and rescued him out of their hands and said, "Let us not take his life." 22 Reuben further said to them, "Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit that is in the wilderness, but do not lay hands on him"--that he might rescue him out of their hands, to restore him to his father.
(Reuben did not wish to do evil, but it says nothing of changing the jealousy and hatred in the hearts of the others.)


23 So it came about, when Joseph reached his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the varicolored tunic that was on him; 24 and they took him and threw him into the pit. Now the pit was empty, without any water in it.
(Is it good or evil to attack your brother, strip him, and throw him into a pit?)

25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
(Is it good or evil to callously eat a meal indifferent to what you have just done to your brother? Is it good or evil for Judah to sell his brother so he can profit from the coin and avoid the blame for his death?)

29 Now Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he tore his garments. 30 He returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is not [there;] as for me, where am I to go?" 31 So they took Joseph's tunic, and slaughtered a male goat and dipped the tunic in the blood;
(Is it good or evil to cover your crimes with lies and deception?)

32 and they sent the varicolored tunic and brought it to their father and said, "We found this; please examine [it] to [see] whether it is your son's tunic or not." 33 Then he examined it and said, "It is my son's tunic. A wild beast has devoured him; Joseph has surely been torn to pieces!" 34 So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. 35 Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him. 36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
(Is their treatment of their father good or evil?)


I really cannot believe that I need to explain how Joseph’s brothers meant evil.
Even the Bible already said so:

[Genesis 50:20 NASB] 20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Though not topically on point of the discussion. I couldn't help but notice a certain detail in the account of yosef being sold.
I wonder if the egyptian bodyguard later mentioned is an ishmaelite.
Just a thought

 

[Lamb]

@pinacled you made the claim that the brothers repented of their evil by not committing the murder but scriptures do not make that claim and that's what @atpollard is asking...for scriptural proof. Reuben's changing his mind to sell the brother is not proof since greed from the sale of their brother might have been a stronger evil in their hearts. We just don't know.

 

[atpollard]

Whereas your statement that yosefs brothers sold him into slavery is the only error I made notation of so that the readers would know the Truth.

[Gen 37:25-28 NASB] 25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Judah came up with the idea to sell their brother.
The other brothers “listened”.
Joseph was sold into slavery.
Joseph later reflects back on this even with “What YOU (his brothers, the sons of Israel) meant for EVIL ...”

“Midianite Traders” are traders from Midian. Midian is near Israel (The Promised Land and national boundary).

[Gen 25:17-18 NASB] 17 These are the years of the life of Ishmael, one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18 They settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria; he settled in defiance of all his relatives.

The Ishmaelites (those descended from Ishmael) settled in the land east of Egypt. Midian is part of the land East of Egypt, so the Ishmaelites settled among the Midianites in Midian. An Ishmaelite trader from Midian would be both a Midian Trader (a trader from Midia) and an Ishmaelite (a descendent of Ishmael).

Joseph’s brothers wanted to sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers did sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers collected the money for selling him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers stained his cloak with blood to cover their crime. The Ishmaelites from Midian purchased Joseph and sold him in Egypt.

Your tale of multiple bands of traders finding and taking and selling Joseph while his brothers ineptly plotted at the top of the hole oblivious to TWO bands of traders passing through, is pure fantasy. Joseph makes it clear that HIS BROTHERS DID THIS and they MEANT EVIL. To deny it is to deny the Word of God.

I agree with you that it IS important for the readers to know the truth!

 

[pinacled]

[Gen 37:25-28 NASB] 25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Judah came up with the idea to sell their brother.
The other brothers “listened”.
Joseph was sold into slavery.
Joseph later reflects back on this even with “What YOU (his brothers, the sons of Israel) meant for EVIL ...”

“Midianite Traders” are traders from Midian. Midian is near Israel (The Promised Land and national boundary).

[Gen 25:17-18 NASB] 17 These are the years of the life of Ishmael, one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18 They settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria; he settled in defiance of all his relatives.

The Ishmaelites (those descended from Ishmael) settled in the land east of Egypt. Midian is part of the land East of Egypt, so the Ishmaelites settled among the Midianites in Midian. An Ishmaelite trader from Midian would be both a Midian Trader (a trader from Midia) and an Ishmaelite (a descendent of Ishmael).

Joseph’s brothers wanted to sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers did sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers collected the money for selling him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers stained his cloak with blood to cover their crime. The Ishmaelites from Midian purchased Joseph and sold him in Egypt.

Your tale of multiple bands of traders finding and taking and selling Joseph while his brothers ineptly plotted at the top of the hole oblivious to TWO bands of traders passing through, is pure fantasy. Joseph makes it clear that HIS BROTHERS DID THIS and they MEANT EVIL. To deny it is to deny the Word of God.

I agree with you that it IS important for the readers to know the truth!

Incorrect;
By implying the Brothers sold him is what is called projection or conjecture that is baseless upon the full account of evidence.
The brothers may have plotted to sell yosef. Yet The fact that Reuben returned from the pit after finding it empty and reporting to his brethren council with sincere concern is adequate proof of ignorance and guiltlessness on the part of the israelite brethren.
They were plotting while yosef was stole away by the midianites and ishmaelites.

The scenario you have proposed leaves Reuben entirely out of the "brethren listening". If you are proposing Reuben was oblivious to his brothers intent to sell yosef.
Incorrect again;
The reason I have pursued this accord is because of the dreamers predestination of israel.

Bible Verses About Midianites - 24 passages - King James Version (KJV)

"Midianites" - discussed most often in the books of Judges (17), Numbers (4) and Genesis (2). "Midianites" - mentioned in 4 books and occurs 24 times in the Bible.

sarata.com

ה וַיֵּשְׁבוּ, לֶאֱכָל-לֶחֶם, וַיִּשְׂאוּ עֵינֵיהֶם וַיִּרְאוּ, וְהִנֵּה אֹרְחַת יִשְׁמְעֵאלִים בָּאָה מִגִּלְעָד; וּגְמַלֵּיהֶם נֹשְׂאִים, נְכֹאת וּצְרִי וָלֹט--הוֹלְכִים, לְהוֹרִיד מִצְרָיְמָה.	25 And they sat down to eat bread; and they lifted up their eyes and looked, and, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites came from Gilead, with their camels bearing spicery and balm and ladanum, going to carry it down to Egypt.
כו וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוּדָה, אֶל-אֶחָיו: מַה-בֶּצַע, כִּי נַהֲרֹג אֶת-אָחִינוּ, וְכִסִּינוּ, אֶת-דָּמוֹ.	26 And Judah said unto his brethren: 'What profit is it if we slay our brother and conceal his blood?
כז לְכוּ וְנִמְכְּרֶנּוּ לַיִּשְׁמְעֵאלִים, וְיָדֵנוּ אַל-תְּהִי-בוֹ, כִּי-אָחִינוּ בְשָׂרֵנוּ, הוּא; וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ, אֶחָיו.	27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother, our flesh.' And his brethren hearkened unto him.
כח וַיַּעַבְרוּ אֲנָשִׁים מִדְיָנִים סֹחֲרִים, וַיִּמְשְׁכוּ וַיַּעֲלוּ אֶת-יוֹסֵף מִן-הַבּוֹר, וַיִּמְכְּרוּ אֶת-יוֹסֵף לַיִּשְׁמְעֵאלִים, בְּעֶשְׂרִים כָּסֶף; וַיָּבִיאוּ אֶת-יוֹסֵף, מִצְרָיְמָה.	28 And there passed by Midianites, merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they brought Joseph into Egypt.
כט וַיָּשָׁב רְאוּבֵן אֶל-הַבּוֹר, וְהִנֵּה אֵין-יוֹסֵף בַּבּוֹר; וַיִּקְרַע, אֶת-בְּגָדָיו.	29 And Reuben returned unto the pit; and, behold, Joseph was not in the pit; and he rent his clothes.
ל וַיָּשָׁב אֶל-אֶחָיו, וַיֹּאמַר: הַיֶּלֶד אֵינֶנּוּ, וַאֲנִי אָנָה אֲנִי-בָא.	30 And he returned unto his brethren, and said: 'The child is not; and as for me, whither shall I go?'

 

[pinacled]

[Gen 37:25-28 NASB] 25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Judah came up with the idea to sell their brother.
The other brothers “listened”.
Joseph was sold into slavery.
Joseph later reflects back on this even with “What YOU (his brothers, the sons of Israel) meant for EVIL ...”

“Midianite Traders” are traders from Midian. Midian is near Israel (The Promised Land and national boundary).

[Gen 25:17-18 NASB] 17 These are the years of the life of Ishmael, one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18 They settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria; he settled in defiance of all his relatives.

The Ishmaelites (those descended from Ishmael) settled in the land east of Egypt. Midian is part of the land East of Egypt, so the Ishmaelites settled among the Midianites in Midian. An Ishmaelite trader from Midian would be both a Midian Trader (a trader from Midia) and an Ishmaelite (a descendent of Ishmael).

Joseph’s brothers wanted to sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers did sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers collected the money for selling him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers stained his cloak with blood to cover their crime. The Ishmaelites from Midian purchased Joseph and sold him in Egypt.

Your tale of multiple bands of traders finding and taking and selling Joseph while his brothers ineptly plotted at the top of the hole oblivious to TWO bands of traders passing through, is pure fantasy. Joseph makes it clear that HIS BROTHERS DID THIS and they MEANT EVIL. To deny it is to deny the Word of God.

I agree with you that it IS important for the readers to know the truth!

You are still free to recant of a false accusation pollard if freewill is and has been portioned to your soul.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

@pinacled you made the claim that the brothers repented of their evil by not committing the murder but scriptures do not make that claim and that's what @atpollard is asking...for scriptural proof. Reuben's changing his mind to sell the brother is not proof since greed from the sale of their brother might have been a stronger evil in their hearts. We just don't know.

The account is plainly and painfully clear lamchen.
And I don't find anywhere in scripture that Reuben agreed to or changed his mind about selling his brother yosef.

What is obviously clear is that while all the brethren of israel met in council. The eldest Reuben was the authoritative decision maker.
Hence his role in checking in on and inspecting the asset to be sold.
Upon finding their plots demise in yosefs unexpected dissapearance.
Another plot ensued that equals three by my measure.
Same as the number of tribes involved in the entire account.

-midianite sons of abraham
-ishmaelite sons>brothers of isaac
-israelite sons of jacab

All tribes being related is no coincidence.
Numbers 14:18
3s and 4s are the way of The King

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

The account is plainly and painfully clear lamchen.
And I don't find anywhere in scripture that Reuben agreed to or changed his mind about selling his brother yosef.

What is obviously clear is that while all the brethren of israel met in council. The eldest Reuben was the authoritative decision maker.
Hence his role in checking in on and inspecting the asset to be sold.
Upon finding their plots demise in yosefs unexpected dissapearance.
Another plot ensued that equals three by my measure.
Same as the number of tribes involved in the entire account.

-midianite sons of abraham
-ishmaelite sons/brothers of isaac
-israelite sons of jacab

All tribes being related is no coincidence.
Numbers 14:18
3s and 4s are the way of The King

Blessings Always

Genesis 25

א וַיֹּסֶף אַבְרָהָם וַיִּקַּח אִשָּׁה, וּשְׁמָהּ קְטוּרָה.	1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
ב וַתֵּלֶד לוֹ, אֶת-זִמְרָן וְאֶת-יָקְשָׁן, וְאֶת-מְדָן, וְאֶת-מִדְיָן--וְאֶת-יִשְׁבָּק, וְאֶת-שׁוּחַ.	2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

1 chronicles 1

לב וּבְנֵי קְטוּרָה פִּילֶגֶשׁ אַבְרָהָם, יָלְדָה אֶת-זִמְרָן וְיָקְשָׁן וּמְדָן וּמִדְיָן--וְיִשְׁבָּק וְשׁוּחַ; וּבְנֵי יָקְשָׁן, שְׁבָא וּדְדָן. {ס}

32 And the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bore Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan:

Interesting number of children.

Blessings Always

 

[atpollard]

We just don't know.

Apparently he does ... Just like Joseph Smith and his special knowledge about Kolob.

 

[pinacled]

[Gen 37:25-28 NASB] 25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Judah came up with the idea to sell their brother.
The other brothers “listened”.
Joseph was sold into slavery.
Joseph later reflects back on this even with “What YOU (his brothers, the sons of Israel) meant for EVIL ...”

“Midianite Traders” are traders from Midian. Midian is near Israel (The Promised Land and national boundary).

[Gen 25:17-18 NASB] 17 These are the years of the life of Ishmael, one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18 They settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria; he settled in defiance of all his relatives.

The Ishmaelites (those descended from Ishmael) settled in the land east of Egypt. Midian is part of the land East of Egypt, so the Ishmaelites settled among the Midianites in Midian. An Ishmaelite trader from Midian would be both a Midian Trader (a trader from Midia) and an Ishmaelite (a descendent of Ishmael).

Joseph’s brothers wanted to sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers did sell him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers collected the money for selling him into slavery, Joseph’s brothers stained his cloak with blood to cover their crime. The Ishmaelites from Midian purchased Joseph and sold him in Egypt.

Your tale of multiple bands of traders finding and taking and selling Joseph while his brothers ineptly plotted at the top of the hole oblivious to TWO bands of traders passing through, is pure fantasy. Joseph makes it clear that HIS BROTHERS DID THIS and they MEANT EVIL. To deny it is to deny the Word of God.

I agree with you that it IS important for the readers to know the truth!

Yes,
Truth and clarity are very important in communication amongst brethren.

Which brothers exactly are you accusing?
Judah or the whole tribe of israel?

 

[pinacled]

Apparently he does ... Just like Joseph Smith and his special knowledge about Kolob.

Who is he pollard?

 

[atpollard]

What is obviously clear is that while all the brethren of israel met in council. The eldest Reuben was the authoritative decision maker.

What verse in Genesis makes it “obviously clear” that “Reuben was the authoritative decision maker” ?
Where does Judah speak of talking to Reuben before they decide?
How do the brother’s know how much one band sold Joseph to another band for if they did not get the money?


Your rewriting of the events to make the brothers guiltless when the Holy Bible and the testimony of Joseph clearly show them guilty of many sins in the events leading up to Joseph’s enslavement, is a mockery of the actual words of scripture. It says what happened, you are just tap dancing around the facts to edit history. Joseph’s words to his brothers about what they meant for evil, God meant for good becomes meaningless nonsense if you revise the story so they did no evil. Joseph is talking like a fool and God is robbed of the credit for His sovereignty even over apparent evil events.

Sorry, but I will not be apologizing for defending scripture and what it actually says to honor the Sovereignty of God over the events in the story of Joseph. You can pretend the brothers were all innocent victims if you want, but I will stand by the word and praise the God who acts according to the council of His own will. Jacob screwed up his family and God did something extraordinary to heal three generations of broken relationships.

 

[pinacled]

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:28-30

It is without dispute that the scripture mentioned Predestination. Some verses that talk about it are Acts 4:28, Romans 8:29-30, 1 Corinthians 2:7 and Ephesians 1:5,11. IN other places the words chosen or that God foreknew is mentioned such as in Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:17

Roman 8:7 also lets us know that our fleshy mind is hostile to God and won't come to God on it's own.

John 10:28 Jesus also says that the sheep that hear His voice come to Him and he gives them eternal life and nobody is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

a few thoughts about this. I wonder why it is that churches either avoid completely the subject of predestination and/or seem to mention nothing else but predestination. It seems to go either one way or the other. I also wonder why those who teach about predestination also think that they are among those who are predestined. Nobody ever thinks or says that they are pretty sure that they are not predestined to heaven. I also struggle with the idea that if God choses some to be saved, then that means that he choses others to be lost and that they will not respond to the gospel their whole lives and are doomed to go to hell when they die. The other side of the coin, I guess. Because it is clear that in and of ourselves that we would never want to come to God on our own. It is also clear in our society that you see people who never think about God or His will and only think about themselves.

John 17

11 stars

 

[atpollard]

Yes,
Truth and clarity are very important in communication amongst brethren.

Which brothers exactly are you accusing?
Judah or the whole tribe of israel?

“Judah” “and his brothers” ... “Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? ‘Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh.’ And his brothers listened [to him.]”

 

[pinacled]

“Judah” “and his brothers” ... “Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? ‘Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh.’ And his brothers listened [to him.]”

Thankyou.
Are you insinuating that judah is to blame?
And that Reuben was not present during Judah's meeting with the other brothers?

If so please clarify the narrative that you see in the spirit

 

[pinacled]

What verse in Genesis makes it “obviously clear” that “Reuben was the authoritative decision maker” ?
Where does Judah speak of talking to Reuben before they decide?
How do the brother’s know how much one band sold Joseph to another band for if they did not get the money?


Your rewriting of the events to make the brothers guiltless when the Holy Bible and the testimony of Joseph clearly show them guilty of many sins in the events leading up to Joseph’s enslavement, is a mockery of the actual words of scripture. It says what happened, you are just tap dancing around the facts to edit history. Joseph’s words to his brothers about what they meant for evil, God meant for good becomes meaningless nonsense if you revise the story so they did no evil. Joseph is talking like a fool and God is robbed of the credit for His sovereignty even over apparent evil events.

Sorry, but I will not be apologizing for defending scripture and what it actually says to honor the Sovereignty of God over the events in the story of Joseph. You can pretend the brothers were all innocent victims if you want, but I will stand by the word and praise the God who acts according to the council of His own will. Jacob screwed up his family and God did something extraordinary to heal three generations of broken relationships.

To answer your first question about Rueben.
The Lord clearly states that the first born are apart of The Lord of Host strength.

ג רְאוּבֵן בְּכֹרִי אַתָּה, כֹּחִי וְרֵאשִׁית אוֹנִי--יֶתֶר שְׂאֵת, וְיֶתֶר עָז.

3 Reuben, thou art my first-born, my might, and the first-fruits of my strength; the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power.

To answer your second question of how the price of yosefs bondage is known and recorded.
Simple,
Oral Torah.
Also there is the aspect of when the brothers were reunited with yosef that gives credence to yosef informing his brethren of the details of his unexpected disapearance.
Including the details of tribes and price.

Remember the brothers shock when yosef revealed himself . And also the testing yosef instigated in order to investigate his brothers?
Personally I found such an account exonerating yosefs brethren of direct involvement of his being sold to slavery.

ג וַיֹּאמֶר יוֹסֵף אֶל-אֶחָיו אֲנִי יוֹסֵף, הַעוֹד אָבִי חָי; וְלֹא-יָכְלוּ אֶחָיו לַעֲנוֹת אֹתוֹ, כִּי נִבְהֲלוּ מִפָּנָיו.

3 And Joseph said unto his brethren: 'I am Joseph; doth my father yet live?' And his brethren could not answer him; for they were affrighted at his presence.

Philippians 4:8
[" In conclusion, brothers, focus your thoughts on what is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovable or admirable, on some virtue or on something praiseworthy "]


Blessings Always