Predestination vs. Free Will

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
If Joseph’s brothers had not sold him into slavery, there would have been no Passover Lamb to teach us what the coming Christ would do. Did God plan on Joseph’s brother’s doing evil, or did God just get lucky?
What evil exactly did the brothers of yosef commit that warranted an accusation against them?

1 Peter 3:9
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If Joseph’s brothers had not sold him into slavery, there would have been no Passover Lamb to teach us what the coming Christ would do. Did God plan on Joseph’s brother’s doing evil, or did God just get lucky?

There's a big difference between God using one specific situation for good, and God preordaining every single thing that happens throughout the whole of time.
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If Joseph’s brothers had not sold him into slavery, there would have been no Passover Lamb to teach us what the coming Christ would do. Did God plan on Joseph’s brother’s doing evil, or did God just get lucky?
I think this is a perfect example of Romans 8:28. That while God doesn't cause some things to happen that good things can still come out of them to those who love Him
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Incorrect.
There is no w in hebrew
יהוה
Strongs: יְהֹוָה Yᵉhôvâh, yeh-ho-vaw'; from H1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal

Peace to you, but I have no interest in playing your phonetic nit-picking games.
YHWH is the common Tetragrammaton.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
There's a big difference between God using one specific situation for good, and God preordaining every single thing that happens throughout the whole of time.
“Preordaining” is a loaded word. Let me ask the same thing in a different way.

Does God know everything that is going to happen or do some events catch God by surprise?
Do God’s plans turn out exactly like God desires, or does God have to sometimes settle for “close enough”?
Is God really in control of EVERYTHING, or is God only in control of most things?
Does God permit evil actions to happen because they must somehow serve His plan, or was God powerless to prevent those actions?

[shrug] It ultimately comes down to who you think the God of the Bible is. Does God ACT or REACT? I see a SOVEREIGN God that heeds no council but His own and works all things according to His perfect will. You are free to agree or disagree. I see what I see and am called to change the mind of no one.
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Yes really,
'"Those that curse israel......."

From what i recall there were brothers(brethren of unknown number) who had issues and plotted to murder their brother(). I don't recall which of yosefs brothers made the suggestion.
Yet all repented after the eldest offered another course of action.

Appalling as the brothers actions were; They were steered away from commiting the unforgivable that in the past cain had commited after forewarned.

Blessings Always
 
Last edited:

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Read the account in Torah very closely and leave aside all assumptions of the number of people considered brethren.

After all,
yosef is a child of israel in his old age. Meaning that yosefs elder brothers likely had children older than yosef.
And it's also very well possible that other than progeny of israel were involved (ie neighbors/hired labor) in tempting the unforgivable.
A lesson of abstaining from an appearance of evil far as I can see.
Gossip has no place in The Kingdom.

Keen eyes
 
Last edited:

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
14,084
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
“Preordaining” is a loaded word. Let me ask the same thing in a different way.

Does God know everything that is going to happen or do some events catch God by surprise?
Do God’s plans turn out exactly like God desires, or does God have to sometimes settle for “close enough”?
Is God really in control of EVERYTHING, or is God only in control of most things?
Does God permit evil actions to happen because they must somehow serve His plan, or was God powerless to prevent those actions?

[shrug] It ultimately comes down to who you think the God of the Bible is. Does God ACT or REACT? I see a SOVEREIGN God that heeds no council but His own and works all things according to His perfect will. You are free to agree or disagree. I see what I see and am called to change the mind of no one.

Given we're discussing the issue of free will versus predestination it seems entirely relevant to use terms like "preordaining".

Whether God specifically planned, from before the dawn of time, for Joseph's brothers to do what they did is one possibility. Another is that God gives us a lot of free will and intervenes as necessary to turn things to good.

Some people believe that God predestines every detail, however small. Others (not within the Christian church admittedly) believe that God created us and then leaves us to it - their view of God is much like their view of the person who made my watch in the factory in that they made it, set it loose and now really don't care what happens to it. And of course there are a range of views in between.

To argue that God is powerless to prevent something turns God into not much of a god really. To argue that God permits evil to happen in order to bring a greater good makes much more sense, even if the person suffering from the evil might not be thrilled at being caught up in a bigger plan we have to accept that our creator gets to make decisions we might not like. To argue that God actively causes evil brings all sorts of questions into play about whether we are talking about a god who is even good.

As to whether God's plans turn out as desired or whether he settles, we also have to consider the possibility that in some instances God simply doesn't care. Does it matter to God whether I wore my blue shirt or my red shirt today? Probably not. If for some reason that may be completely lost on me it was important that I wore one particular garment over another God is quite capable of leading me to that decision using a variety of different means. It might be my wife laying that shirt out and saying she thinks I look nice in it. It might be that shirt happening to be on top of my drawer when I get dressed and me having no reason to do anything other than put on the first clean shirt that comes to hand. It might be me putting on the blue shirt, spilling breakfast all down my front and so getting the next shirt out (you know, the red one). It doesn't seem unreasonable to figure that, in most cases, God really doesn't care about trivial details like exactly what I wear, exactly which route I take to go shopping, whether I buy the vanilla or the chocolate ice cream and the like.

If God doesn't react there seems little point in praying for things. If God doesn't act it suggests God has no plan for much of anything. I'm not sure it has to be exclusively one or the other. You know, regular folks like you and I sometimes act in a decisive, proactive sense and sometimes we react to things. Is there any reason why God can't do both? God spared the Israelites upon Moses' plea, he promised to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if only ten righteous people could be found and so on. Does that mean God reacts? If not then praying to ask for anything is a colossal waste of time.

Perhaps God is able to take full control of things but chooses not to. I took my friend's son out for a hike the other week. At a guess I'm three times his size and weight so, had I chosen to, I could have forced him to do just about anything I wanted. But I forced him to do precisely nothing - the purpose of the hike was that we both had a good time. I could have given him the ultimate soft option and carried him for the entire hike, but that would have deprived him of the sense of achievement of making it all the way under his own steam. If he had started doing something that was dangerous to himself or others I might have had to step in and forcibly stop him, and if he had proven incapable of getting back to the car under his own steam I may have had to carry him. Is it such a strange concept that God works in similar ways?
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Given we're discussing the issue of free will versus predestination it seems entirely relevant to use terms like "preordaining".

Whether God specifically planned, from before the dawn of time, for Joseph's brothers to do what they did is one possibility. Another is that God gives us a lot of free will and intervenes as necessary to turn things to good.

Some people believe that God predestines every detail, however small. Others (not within the Christian church admittedly) believe that God created us and then leaves us to it - their view of God is much like their view of the person who made my watch in the factory in that they made it, set it loose and now really don't care what happens to it. And of course there are a range of views in between.

To argue that God is powerless to prevent something turns God into not much of a god really. To argue that God permits evil to happen in order to bring a greater good makes much more sense, even if the person suffering from the evil might not be thrilled at being caught up in a bigger plan we have to accept that our creator gets to make decisions we might not like. To argue that God actively causes evil brings all sorts of questions into play about whether we are talking about a god who is even good.

As to whether God's plans turn out as desired or whether he settles, we also have to consider the possibility that in some instances God simply doesn't care. Does it matter to God whether I wore my blue shirt or my red shirt today? Probably not. If for some reason that may be completely lost on me it was important that I wore one particular garment over another God is quite capable of leading me to that decision using a variety of different means. It might be my wife laying that shirt out and saying she thinks I look nice in it. It might be that shirt happening to be on top of my drawer when I get dressed and me having no reason to do anything other than put on the first clean shirt that comes to hand. It might be me putting on the blue shirt, spilling breakfast all down my front and so getting the next shirt out (you know, the red one). It doesn't seem unreasonable to figure that, in most cases, God really doesn't care about trivial details like exactly what I wear, exactly which route I take to go shopping, whether I buy the vanilla or the chocolate ice cream and the like.

If God doesn't react there seems little point in praying for things. If God doesn't act it suggests God has no plan for much of anything. I'm not sure it has to be exclusively one or the other. You know, regular folks like you and I sometimes act in a decisive, proactive sense and sometimes we react to things. Is there any reason why God can't do both? God spared the Israelites upon Moses' plea, he promised to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if only ten righteous people could be found and so on. Does that mean God reacts? If not then praying to ask for anything is a colossal waste of time.

Perhaps God is able to take full control of things but chooses not to. I took my friend's son out for a hike the other week. At a guess I'm three times his size and weight so, had I chosen to, I could have forced him to do just about anything I wanted. But I forced him to do precisely nothing - the purpose of the hike was that we both had a good time. I could have given him the ultimate soft option and carried him for the entire hike, but that would have deprived him of the sense of achievement of making it all the way under his own steam. If he had started doing something that was dangerous to himself or others I might have had to step in and forcibly stop him, and if he had proven incapable of getting back to the car under his own steam I may have had to carry him. Is it such a strange concept that God works in similar ways?
Proactive is a useful word and valuable lesson.
Just as Reuben the eldest in his role and word intervened in unwarranted deaths.

So to should all israel hear his prayer.

Blessings Always
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Read the account in Torah very closely and leave aside all assumptions of the number of people considered brethren.

After all,
yosef is a child of israel in his old age. Meaning that yosefs edler brothers likely had children older than yosef.
And it's also very well possible that other than progeny of israel were involved (ie neighbors/hired labor) in tempting the unforgivable.
A lesson of abstaining from an appearance of evil far as I can see.
Gossip has no place in The Kingdom.

Keen eyes

For the LORD grants wisdom; Knowledge and discernment are by His decree.
וצפן [יִצְפֹּ֣ן] לַ֭יְשָׁרִים תּוּשִׁיָּ֑ה מָ֝גֵ֗ן לְהֹ֣לְכֵי תֹֽם׃
He reserves ability for the upright And is a shield for those who live blamelessly,
לִ֭נְצֹר אָרְח֣וֹת מִשְׁפָּ֑ט וְדֶ֖רֶךְ חסידו [חֲסִידָ֣יו] יִשְׁמֹֽר׃
Guarding the paths of justice, Protecting the way of those loyal to Him.
אָ֗ז תָּ֭בִין צֶ֣דֶק וּמִשְׁפָּ֑ט וּ֝מֵישָׁרִ֗ים כָּל־מַעְגַּל־טֽוֹב׃
You will then understand what is right, just, And equitable—every good course.
כִּֽי־תָב֣וֹא חָכְמָ֣ה בְלִבֶּ֑ךָ וְ֝דַ֗עַת לְֽנַפְשְׁךָ֥ יִנְעָֽם׃
For wisdom will enter your mind And knowledge will delight you.
מְ֭זִמָּה תִּשְׁמֹ֥ר עָלֶ֗יךָ תְּבוּנָ֥ה תִנְצְרֶֽכָּה׃
Foresight will protect you, And discernment will guard you.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Yes really,
'"Those that curse israel......."

From what i recall there were brothers(brethren of unknown number) who had issues and plotted to murder their brother(). I don't recall which of yosefs brothers made the suggestion.
Yet all repented after the eldest offered another course of action.

Appalling as the brothers actions were; They were steered away from commiting the unforgivable that in the past cain had commited after forewarned.

Blessings Always

[Genesis 37:18-36 NASB]
18 When they saw him from a distance and before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death.
(Is it good or evil to plot murder?)

19 They said to one another, "Here comes this dreamer! 20 "Now then, come and let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits; and we will say, 'A wild beast devoured him.' Then let us see what will become of his dreams!"
(Is it good or evil to be consumed with jealousy? with hatred? to plot murder and lies to hide the act?)

21 But Reuben heard [this] and rescued him out of their hands and said, "Let us not take his life." 22 Reuben further said to them, "Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit that is in the wilderness, but do not lay hands on him"--that he might rescue him out of their hands, to restore him to his father.
(Reuben did not wish to do evil, but it says nothing of changing the jealousy and hatred in the hearts of the others.)


23 So it came about, when Joseph reached his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the varicolored tunic that was on him; 24 and they took him and threw him into the pit. Now the pit was empty, without any water in it.
(Is it good or evil to attack your brother, strip him, and throw him into a pit?)

25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
(Is it good or evil to callously eat a meal indifferent to what you have just done to your brother? Is it good or evil for Judah to sell his brother so he can profit from the coin and avoid the blame for his death?)

29 Now Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he tore his garments. 30 He returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is not [there;] as for me, where am I to go?" 31 So they took Joseph's tunic, and slaughtered a male goat and dipped the tunic in the blood;
(Is it good or evil to cover your crimes with lies and deception?)

32 and they sent the varicolored tunic and brought it to their father and said, "We found this; please examine [it] to [see] whether it is your son's tunic or not." 33 Then he examined it and said, "It is my son's tunic. A wild beast has devoured him; Joseph has surely been torn to pieces!" 34 So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. 35 Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him. 36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
(Is their treatment of their father good or evil?)


I really cannot believe that I need to explain how Joseph’s brothers meant evil.
Even the Bible already said so:

[Genesis 50:20 NASB] 20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
[Genesis 37:18-36 NASB]
18 When they saw him from a distance and before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death.
(Is it good or evil to plot murder?)

19 They said to one another, "Here comes this dreamer! 20 "Now then, come and let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits; and we will say, 'A wild beast devoured him.' Then let us see what will become of his dreams!"
(Is it good or evil to be consumed with jealousy? with hatred? to plot murder and lies to hide the act?)

21 But Reuben heard [this] and rescued him out of their hands and said, "Let us not take his life." 22 Reuben further said to them, "Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit that is in the wilderness, but do not lay hands on him"--that he might rescue him out of their hands, to restore him to his father.
(Reuben did not wish to do evil, but it says nothing of changing the jealousy and hatred in the hearts of the others.)


23 So it came about, when Joseph reached his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the varicolored tunic that was on him; 24 and they took him and threw him into the pit. Now the pit was empty, without any water in it.
(Is it good or evil to attack your brother, strip him, and throw him into a pit?)

25 Then they sat down to eat a meal. And as they raised their eyes and looked, behold, a caravan of Ishmaelites was coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing aromatic gum and balm and myrrh, on their way to bring [them] down to Egypt. 26 Judah said to his brothers, "What profit is it for us to kill our brother and cover up his blood? 27 "Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our hands on him, for he is our brother, our [own] flesh." And his brothers listened [to him.] 28 Then some Midianite traders passed by, so they pulled [him] up and lifted Joseph out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty [shekels] of silver. Thus they brought Joseph into Egypt.
(Is it good or evil to callously eat a meal indifferent to what you have just done to your brother? Is it good or evil for Judah to sell his brother so he can profit from the coin and avoid the blame for his death?)

29 Now Reuben returned to the pit, and behold, Joseph was not in the pit; so he tore his garments. 30 He returned to his brothers and said, "The boy is not [there;] as for me, where am I to go?" 31 So they took Joseph's tunic, and slaughtered a male goat and dipped the tunic in the blood;
(Is it good or evil to cover your crimes with lies and deception?)

32 and they sent the varicolored tunic and brought it to their father and said, "We found this; please examine [it] to [see] whether it is your son's tunic or not." 33 Then he examined it and said, "It is my son's tunic. A wild beast has devoured him; Joseph has surely been torn to pieces!" 34 So Jacob tore his clothes, and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. 35 Then all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." So his father wept for him. 36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, Pharaoh's officer, the captain of the bodyguard.
(Is their treatment of their father good or evil?)


I really cannot believe that I need to explain how Joseph’s brothers meant evil.
Even the Bible already said so:

[Genesis 50:20 NASB] 20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
What I understand is that responsibility falls on each head of their respective tribes(families)

Appalling as their actions were they repented.
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
In the very scripture you cited Reuben turned them away from murder.
While collectively sitting together and eating a discussion of what course of action to take next ensued. During such time yosef was stole away by the midianites and sold to the ishmalites.

The fact that yosef was stripped of his garment is the likeliness for him not being recognized as a hebrew by the ishmalites. And in consideration of the overall circumstances its also likely yosef went willingly(of his own free will) and did not reveal his heritage to either tribe.

And as is further stated the elders of the respective tribes of israel decided to return to their father with a cruel explaination of yosefs demise.
What ever their motives were for doing so is speculation on the reader of the account.
Something of which is not proper exegesis or PaRDeS.

Blessings Always
 
Last edited:

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,573
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
In the very scripture you cited Reuben turned them away from murder.
While collectively sitting together and eating a discussion of what course of action to take next ensued. During such time yosef was stole away by the midianites and sold to the ishmalites.

The fact that yosef was stripped of his garment is the likeliness for him not being recognized as a hebrew by the ishmalites. And in consideration of the overall circumstances its also likely yosef went willingly(of his own free will) and did not reveal his heritage to either tribe.

And as is further stated the elders of the respective tribes decided to return to their father with a cruel explaination of yosefs demise.
What ever their motives were for doing so is speculation on the reader of the account.
Something of which is not proper exegesis or PaRDeS.

Blessings Always
So your official position is that Moses was wrong in Genesis 50:20.

OK. I have no response.
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So your official position is that Moses was wrong in Genesis 50:20.

OK. I have no response.
Moses?

I know what yosef stated to his brothers concerning their actions.
But did yosef know the full extent of their plotting against him?

Yosefs heart of forgiveness and last words to his entire family speaks volumes about what The Lord of Host had assured abraham of.

Hope.

Blessings Always
 
Last edited:

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So your official position is that Moses was wrong in Genesis 50:20.

OK. I have no response.
My official stance is rooted in a foundation of Faith.

As per the question and debate that the op decided to engage in. I find no opposition of free will and The Lords will where preordinance is held in obedience of righteous instruction.
Especially where blessing israel is concerned.

With The Torah as reubens guide he lead his brethren away from an unforgivable act that would of made null The Most Highs promise to his forefathers.

So when yosef addressed his brothers in ch 50 he reminded them of such so that they would remain faithful to instruction and oral history passed from generation to generation.
 
Top Bottom