Predestination in the Wisdom of God

[Cassia]

Predestination

God predestined to use whomsoeverHewould. Cyrus was predestined according to prophesy but Cyrus was outside of God's chosen people. God used Tamar to add Perez to Christ's bloodline while still remaining in Christ's ancestry of Judah. He used Ruth, a Moabite, also in that bloodline to add the Kinsman redeemer.

These are things associated with God's plan thru Christ to which we are added by grace. But Grace is also advantages to mankind in general just as He allows the sun and rain to fall upon the just and unjust. Grace is advantages to all people, not Christians alone. Grace does save us of course because it is the power of God in this world.

God's wisdom is concentrated in Christ, He has been made God's wisdom for us. When Christ rose from the grave and was seated at the right hand of God, He became the new covenant. The New Covanent IS between Him and the Father and whomsoeverHEwills is added as co-inheritors.

Thoughts?

 

[Lamb]

At first glance I don't have a problem with anything you've written I have to go back outside to do some work but I look forward to reading more in this thread.

 

[Brighten04]

Predestination is a concept that I do not understand very well. But I agree with what you are saying. We see in scripture how our Father uses people outside of the covenant to accomplish His will, and I believe He still does that today. This should be an interesting discussion, but I have little to contribute.

 

[Cassia]

At first glance I don't have a problem with anything you've written I have to go back outside to do some work but I look forward to reading more in this thread.

Predestination is a concept that I do not understand very well. But I agree with what you are saying. We see in scripture how our Father uses people outside of the covenant to accomplish His will, and I believe He still does that today. This should be an interesting discussion, but I have little to contribute.

I'm hoping there will be a lively participation in it as well. My main point is that the final decision of election/called/predestined etc etc is in the hands of Christ on an individual level. What I'm not looking for is smokescreen silliness that leads away from all honest questions and answers.

 

[Tigger]

I see predestination as God's foreknowledge and sovereignty working together in unity.

 

[Cassia]

I see predestination as God's foreknowledge and sovereignty working together in unity.

It is that for sure. Can I ask you when you came to that realization that it was in you who was it also in association with? I can imagine different answers to that question such as God the Father (which I would think of as a Jewish answer) or Mary, Christ's mother ( an RCC answer) (because I have heard of some placing their faith in her grace) or others answering differently.

The reason that I ask that is to get the thread to be more specific as to what the covenant that is in effect is about. It used to be a covenant that was for a nation. Now it's a covenant for individuals based on Christ.

ETA: Here is reference to households being saved before the end of the millenium at which time the second death is enacted upon individuals.

http://christianityhaven.com/showth...y-Babies-Should-be-Baptized&p=96938#post96938

 

[user1234]

I'm hoping there will be a lively participation in it as well. My main point is that the final decision of election/called/predestined etc etc is in the hands of Christ on an individual level. What I'm not looking for is smokescreen silliness that leads away from all honest questions and answers.

Ahhhhhhh SHADDUP!!!

LOL :=D: Just kidding, Cassia!

I figure this thread might need a bit of levity right near the start, because it could get heavy.
But it's a good one already. Wish I could contribute more right now, but duty calls and a busy weekend is coming. Where does the time go?

Quickly, one thing I'm grateful for re: predestination, (though this is probably outside the normal biblical parameters of the definition) (and why am I talking like that?!) ANYways..... I'm grateful that God seems to use ppl in the body of Christ, in a sort of 'pre-destinated way' to help each other grow and learn, be convicted at times, rejoice at times, and be encouraged at others, sometimes through empathy, sometimes through battle, (yes even I have had them, ... yep, ... including with some here who shall go unnamed, Cassia) :;;D:
But through brothers and sisters in Christ, His Word, and His Holy Spirit, we are predestined to be conformed to the image of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and that just blows my mind that He is doing that for us, (though I admit I don't really understand a whole lot of it or see it so much in my own life.)

I often feel like I'm going more backwards than forwards.
But, good OP , it has the potential to be real fruitful. GBU. (armor up)

 

[Cassia]

Colossians 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Romans 8:29-30
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance,[a] having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,

Ephesians 1:5
He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance,having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,


God's Wisdom in Christ is the mystery revealed.
That may seem like it's an obvious thing to most Christian but the bible also states that it is a stumbling block to many.

 

[Brighten04]

Question?What does being IN Christ actually mean? A lot of people see it as an abstract kind of thing. I take it literally. Let me explain. Imagine a glass of eternally pure water. This represents Lord Jesus Christ. Now imagine dark ink. this represents the believer. Now.imagine the dark ink being dropped into the pure water. Since the water is eternally pure(Lord Jesus) the dark ink(believers) cannot contaminate it but is changed into the same purity as the water. This is how I see salvation and being IN Christ. I hope I made sense.

 

[Cassia]

Question?What does being IN Christ actually mean? A lot of people see it as an abstract kind of thing. I take it literally. Let me explain. Imagine a glass of eternally pure water. This represents Lord Jesus Christ. Now imagine dark ink. this represents the believer. Now.imagine the dark ink being dropped into the pure water. Since the water is eternally pure(Lord Jesus) the dark ink(believers) cannot contaminate it but is changed into the same purity as the water. This is how I see salvation and being IN Christ. I hope I made sense.

I think that's a very good explanation. Like the tea human and the water being divine but when combined makes tea which is a new substance. The tea (new nature) is made of both elements. But that can be easily twisted to say that Christ is a mixture of human and divine elements also. He is 100% of both. In Him our spirit has the new nature but our minds are being renewed and our bodies awaiting glorification. Indeed it is a mystery that was not revealed to others than the new creation in Christ. It is not to remain a mystery in the Christian realm.

Colossians 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Brighten04]

I think that's a very good explanation. Like the tea human and the water being divine but when combined makes tea which is a new substance. The tea (new nature) is made of both elements. But that can be easily twisted to say that Christ is a mixture of human and divine elements also. He is 100% of both. In Him our spirit has the new nature but our minds are being renewed and our bodies awaiting glorification. Indeed it is a mystery that was not revealed to others than the new creation in Christ. It is not to remain a mystery in the Christian realm.

Colossians 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I can see it that way too. But from my experience, most Christians would deny this complete union.

 

[Tigger]

It is that for sure. Can I ask you when you came to that realization that it was in you who was it also in association with? I can imagine different answers to that question such as God the Father (which I would think of as a Jewish answer) or Mary, Christ's mother ( an RCC answer) (because I have heard of some placing their faith in her grace) or others answering differently.

The reason that I ask that is to get the thread to be more specific as to what the covenant that is in effect is about. It used to be a covenant that was for a nation. Now it's a covenant for individuals based on Christ.

Colossians 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

To be totally transparent I lifted this verse from your subsequent post :big-eyes:but that's the first verse that popped into my head while reading this post of yours. One of the first signs His spirit was within me was one day I was reading the Psalms and it was more than just reading and comprehending the words but it was like I could hear the words from within my head like they were being spoken to me. I know, I know it probably sounds crazy to some but that's the best I can explain it.

 

[Brighten04]

Colossians 1:26-27
the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

To be totally transparent I lifted this verse from your subsequent post :big-eyes:but that's the first verse that popped into my head while reading this post of yours. One of the first signs His spirit was within me was one day I was reading the Psalms and it was more than just reading and comprehending the words but it was like I could hear the words from within my head like they were being spoken to me. I know, I know it probably sounds crazy to some but that's the best I can explain it.

This is how He speaks to me too.

 

[Cassia]

I'm having trouble with quotes on phone but reading a scripture that spoke directly to me was my first recognition of His Spirit within also. Even tho I had seen Jesus twice in dream/vision. That was identification with Him from Him. It's also when I decided to get baptized. His love directed to me prompted the decision. Something that seeing alone didn't ignite. I needed the awakening of the spirit to respond to the call. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Brighten04]

I'm having trouble with quotes on phone but reading a scripture that spoke directly to me was my first recognition of His Spirit within also. Even tho I had seen Jesus twice in dream/vision. That was identification with Him from Him. It's also when I decided to get baptized. His love directed to me prompted the decision. Something that seeing alone didn't ignite. I needed the awakening of the spirit to respond to the call. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, there is a confidence and a knowing that comes with the recognition of His indwelling.I describe it as the Hymn writer says
Something happened
And now I know
He touched me
And made me whole.

IMHO there is no other way to describe it.

 

[Rens]

I see predestination as God's foreknowledge and sovereignty working together in unity.

Yes like Jesus who knew their hearts so He didn't trust Himself to them. Not like God randomly picking some He likes or doesn't like, it's the other way around, but He just knows. And election is also for a task to get the others saved.

 

[Josiah]

I reject Predestination in the secular, pagan sense of fate in all things.


I accept what the Bible often calls Election in Justification (narrow) in that I believe God's unconditional love and embrace of me predates my physical conception (it's ALWAYS, ALWAYS presented in the Bible as Gospel, as Comfort) and as the affirmation of Jesus' proclaimation "You did not choose me but I chose you."

Election only has to do with Justification (narrow) and is only Gospel. And as such, it affirms monergism and God's UNCONDITIONAL love, grace, mercy.

And Election too is mystery since certainly it causes my fallen, sinful, puny human brain to ask a whole bunch of silly questions that the very same brain can't answer (proving I ain't God)... no problem, I'm sure God knows a whole lot more about the things of God than my silly brain does. When I was a boy, we had a dog that use to growl at the back of the TV when a dog or cat came on... we laughed. I'm sure God laughs a lot at us.


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

I reject Predestination in the secular, pagan sense of fate in all things.


I accept what the Bible often calls Election in Justification (narrow) in that I believe God's unconditional love and embrace of me predates my physical conception (it's ALWAYS, ALWAYS presented in the Bible as Gospel, as Comfort) and as the affirmation of Jesus' proclaimation "You did not choose me but I chose you."

Election only has to do with Justification (narrow) and is only Gospel. And as such, it affirms monergism and God's UNCONDITIONAL love, grace, mercy.

And Election too is mystery since certainly it causes my fallen, sinful, puny human brain to ask a whole bunch of silly questions that the very same brain can't answer (proving I ain't God)... no problem, I'm sure God knows a whole lot more about the things of God than my silly brain does. When I was a boy, we had a dog that use to growl at the back of the TV when a dog or cat came on... we laughed. I'm sure God laughs a lot at us.


- Josiah



.

Ah yes the Elect. Who are the Elect? Those who have faith when Jesus returns.

 

[Tigger]

Yes like Jesus who knew their hearts so He didn't trust Himself to them. Not like God randomly picking some He likes or doesn't like, it's the other way around, but He just knows. And election is also for a task to get the others saved.

I don't believe God randomly hates some people either. His foreknowledge and nature are far above that and our comprehension.

 

[Cassia]

Romans 9:13-33
13 As it is written,
“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.
19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”26
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they shall be called children of the living God.”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the children of Israel were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth quickly and decisively.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left survivors to us,
we would have fared like Sodom
and been made like Gomorrah.”
30 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
“See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”​

God created vessels to contain Himself. The containers prepared from the beginning are mankind, all are deemed savable because all have been created in His image. He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory. His choosing has gone thru Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and now thru Jesus Christ. In making His glory known to us in His mercy He saves us to become His vessels of honor. In a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels but also wooden and earthen; and some are unto honor, and some unto dishonor.

2 Timothy 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.”
Isaiah 26:13
O Lord our God,
other lords besides you have ruled over us,
but we acknowledge your name alone.​

The firm foundation here is His church/body. Those who are His stand in His Name alone.