Predestination in the Wisdom of God

[Cassia]

A fold is made for winter sheltering for a flock of sheep in the same way the law was made to bring His people thru the wilderness to the promised land.

Jeremiah 23:3,5
Then I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the lands where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply.
5 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
John 10:16
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they were silenced. And they praised God, saying, “Then God has given even to the Gentiles the repentance that leads to life.”​

Christ is the promised one predestined as the shepard to His sheep. (read all of Jeremiah 23) Those of the fold that are living according to law are still hidden from the light of the new day.

Hebrews 8:7-9
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one.
God finds fault with them when he says:
“The days are surely coming, says the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;
not like the covenant that I made with their ancestors,
on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
for they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I had no concern for them, says the Lord.​

One sheppard for one flock, all for Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I thought of a "fold" for sheep as a small fenced in area that the shepherds would guard at night to keep the sheep safe from attack by predators. Most predators stay away from human beings especially of the human beings have a fire going.

 

[Cassia]

I thought of a "fold" for sheep as a small fenced in area that the shepherds would guard at night to keep the sheep safe from attack by predators. Most predators stay away from human beings especially of the human beings have a fire going.

They often used caves in the winter or fenced areas at night. The cave that David's men hid in must have been quite large for them to hide in the recessess and not be seen by Saul. Perhaps some of David's shepherding days were spent there. 1 Samuel 23:2-3 ; 2 Samuel 7:8

The link has a great description of ancient sheepfolds.
http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/sheep-fold.html

Speaking of David there's an interesting correlation of sheepfolds to the key of David that I find intriqueing.
Isaiah 65:10 ; Hosea 2:15 ; Revelation 3:7-8

Song of Solomon 2:11-12

for behold, the winter is past;
the rain is over and gone.
The flowers appear on the earth,
the time of singing has come,
and the voice of the turtledove
is heard in our land.​

 

[Cassia]

I don't think that there are any one of us who do not believe in free will. If there is no freewill then this time of testing that is called being human is just a cruel joke. It would be as if we are pawns in a chess game played by an unseen force that placed some on the black team and others on the white team. And who gets to say who is on what team? Surely not you or I! And not all is black and white to us here in the game of life. Christianity is made up of so many belief systems that only serve to divide and exclude when only one belief sets us apart from the rest of the world. Belief that initially set us apart to God comes from hearing we are told. It comes from a place outside of ourselves, from the Holy Spirit. Being a Christian is determined on whether we believe on the one fact of Christ Jesus. Belief thereby brings the Holy Spirit to a place within. From there we can either grieve the Spirit who is sealed with us or accomadate Him according to what one allows into their lives. I can see Him being grieved by anything that contradicts the fact of One body, One Spirit and One with the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the head to which we are equally members of the body. If we are not equally the body then the head is being usurped. But we are ignorant beings in that we ignor the fact of the substance to dwell on the pattern that is set as an analogy of understanding and thereby causing division and exclusion. That does not come from God but from the men on the chessboard.

some Notes from Barnes

Hearing puts one in a position (disposed or inclined) to accept as truth that which is heard. Titus 3:5-6; John 1:13
That arrangement has come from God and has not arisen from one's own self. One is then disposed to embrace eternal life because of what He has done and lay hold of salvation. That implies election but in fact makes one accessable to God's own unchangeable plan. Acts 18:10; Romans 8:28-30; 9:15-16,21,23; Ephesians 1:4-5,11. The outcome is determined whether one believes or does not believe.

Who were THEN disposed, and in good earnest determined, to embrace eternal life, by the operation of the grace of God on their hearts.

 

[psalms 91]

Predestination is based on Gods foreknowledge

 

[MoreCoffee]

Predestination is based on Gods foreknowledge

I am inclined to think that predestination refers to those incorporated into Christ through baptism and faith - such would be predestined to eternal life inasmuch as they are in Christ and receive life from him (eternal life being the life of God in them as members of the body of Christ) - and to those who deliberately reject Christ - such would be separated from the life of God and exist in something less than life after the final judgement. The idea of predestination is about Jesus Christ and not about individuals receiving election to eternal life nor is it about individuals being condemned (by their own choices) to eternal punishment.

 

[Cassia]

Predestination is based on Gods foreknowledge

Do you mean that His plan is what is predestined?

I am inclined to think that predestination refers to those incorporated into Christ through baptism and faith - such would be predestined to eternal life inasmuch as they are in Christ and receive life from him (eternal life being the life of God in them as members of the body of Christ) - and to those who deliberately reject Christ - such would be separated from the life of God and exist in something less than life after the final judgement. The idea of predestination is about Jesus Christ and not about individuals receiving election to eternal life nor is it about individuals being condemned (by their own choices) to eternal punishment.

I agree that the final outcome is left entirely to Christ. I don't know that adding baptism in anything but the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite tho.

 

[psalms 91]

I mean because God has foreknowledge of what we will choose and decide that it is then predestined because of our free will

 

[Cassia]

I mean because God has foreknowledge of what we will choose and decide that it is then predestined because of our free will

I think that is an apt description of the paradox. How do you see freewill coming into that?

God breathed on Adam and they became a freewill agent that willfully choose to reject God. God choose the Jewish nation but they willfully choose to reject the incarnation of God thereby making way for Gentiles to come into the family of God. Were they free from coesion or restraint?

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [the city] that kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto her, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Edit to add: iow is the choose of eternal life outside of some people's grasp?

 

[Cassia]

The paradox is that in each of the above cases the examples were already with God, so then the question shifts to osas. Again my theology goes to the millenium in which the second death seems to be the second chance or second chose that includes everyone other than those who have already choosen to overcome the world, satan and the flesh. That's why servitude to Jesus is the result of real freedom. John 3:20, Romans 6:16

Augustine writes 'On Free Choice of the Will' pg 36,69
"What was not done by will would be neither evil-doing nor right action. Both punishment and reward would be unjust if mankind did not have freewill. Moreover, there must needs be justice both in punishment and reward, since justice is one of the goods that are from God. Therefore, God must needs have given freewill to mankind"

To love God or not was at the question in the garden and remains so today. Matthew 6:24
The tree of life as the chose still remains also because it's the reason we're given the freedom that is called will in the first place. And the huge responsibility in every chose we make.
The "two tree" environment seem to be the crux of all paradox, the wisdom of God seems to always come by meeting in the middle. Choosing the one tree automatically disqualifies from choosing the other. 'As the pendulem swings.'

Ecclesiastes 7:16
Be not righteous overmuch, neither make thyself overwise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?​

 

[psalms 91]

I think that is an apt description of the paradox. How do you see freewill coming into that?

God breathed on Adam and they became a freewill agent that willfully choose to reject God. God choose the Jewish nation but they willfully choose to reject the incarnation of God thereby making way for Gentiles to come into the family of God. Were they free from coesion or restraint?

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [the city] that kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto her, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely.​

Edit to add: iow is the choose of eternal life outside of some people's grasp?

God predestines the individual in the knowledge of the choices they will make. It does not take the choice away merely allows the opportunity to change knowing that we wont change our choice thus we are predestined by our own choices

 

[Cassia]

God predestines the individual in the knowledge of the choices they will make. It does not take the choice away merely allows the opportunity to change knowing that we wont change our choice thus we are predestined by our own choices

What scripture are you basing this on?

a)
God predestines the individual in the knowledge of the choices they will make.

b)
It does not take the choice away merely allows the opportunity to change knowing that we wont change

c)
we wont change our choice thus we are predestined by our own choices.

 

[psalms 91]

What scripture are you basing this on?

a)
God predestines the individual in the knowledge of the choices they will make.

b)
It does not take the choice away merely allows the opportunity to change knowing that we wont change

c)
we wont change our choice thus we are predestined by our own choices.

Look at Judas, he was with Christ three years, heard and saw it all, was made treasurer even though he was a thief. Jesus knew all this and even at the last supper Jesus called him out and sent him on his way, he could have changed at any time up till he did his deed but God knew he wouldnt and that he would fulfill scripture. He was presestined by his own decisions

 

[Cassia]

Look at Judas, he was with Christ three years, heard and saw it all, was made treasurer even though he was a thief. Jesus knew all this and even at the last supper Jesus called him out and sent him on his way, he could have changed at any time up till he did his deed but God knew he wouldnt and that he would fulfill scripture. He was presestined by his own decisions

The only thing we can say with a certainty about Judas is that he was chosen but died before the birth of the church, leaving him amongst the other Jews that had betrayed Jesus to death on the cross.

The predestined plan of God that was from the beginning was that of dispensing Himself, with all of Christ's achievements, into humanity. The only thing needed is belief in that power which raised Christ from the dead to have that power alive in the believer. That's still a belief that very few are not ashamed to admit. But those who do believe that become part of a new organism called the body of Christ. Not available to the Jews nor to Adam. Christ is the new Adam, a living spirit, life to those who believe. The old testament people knew that God had a purpose but not until the new testament has that purpose been revealed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since predestination to eternal life and predestination to eternal punishment is entirely decided by being in (or outside) of the body of Christ is there any point in debating about Judas Iscariot? It is Jesus who is predestined to eternal life and all others are predestined to eternal punishment. Christ is the subject and the object of God's predestination. The faithful are predestined only insofar as they are "in Christ". That is what Paul teaches in Ephesians.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:3-14
​

The frequent use of "in him" and "in Christ" points the reader to the fundamental truth that only in union with Christ (in his body) are God's promises affirmed (yes and amen). Outside of Christ (the body of Christ) as individuals there is no salvation.

 

[Cassia]

Double predestination or other additions to the topic should be refrained from.

 

[Cassia]

^^ the topic is not at all about hell, but the idea of pergatory is disputed in rewards. Choosing life, as was said, instead of death, in all things is what is being promoted in the bible to overcome any fear of being left out of the millenial kingdom.

Most Christians these days have an unclear view of the reward system. Many use the doctrine of pergatory to explain away what is easily rightly divided in the Word in recognition of the difference between the millenium and eternity. Like the prophets of old who couldn't see the church age in the valley when viewing eternity, so too with these 2 trains of thoughts, they cannot see the valley of the millenium when viewing eternity. The prophets of old had an excuse.

1 Peter 1:12
It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things that have now been announced to you through those who brought you good news by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look!​

​
AND this is definately Not confined to any specific denominations even tho they don't term it as pergatory.

Neither of these schools recognize the reward of the kingdom; even moreso, they do not see the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. Both consider all the negative points in verses refering to the rewards as referring to perdition.

Otoh school A , believing in eternal salvation regards all the negative points of reward scripture as applying to the perdition of false believers; while school B, believing that a saved person will perish if he falls, regards these points as applying to the perdition of believers who have fallen.

But the complete revelation of the Bible shows that these negative points refer to the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward. God's salvation is eternal; once we obtain it, we will never lose it John 10:28-29. But we may suffer the loss of the kingdom reward, even though we still will be saved 1 Corinthians 3:8, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

Hebrews 6 (school A) refers to those who have fallen away yet have repented in baptism, tasted of the heavenly (note John the baptist had the ministry of baptism of repentance) (not to be repeated) while Hebrews 10 (school B) refers to those who never believed but treated His sacrifice as a common thing and insulted the Holy Spirit. STOP your both right! But what your wrong on is the lack of discernment toward rewards~!

Hebrews 12:28
Therefore receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us have grace, through which we may serve God well-pleasingly with piety and fear;​

​

The Hebrew believers had received the kingdom, but they risked losing the reward in the manifestation of the kingdom if they shrank back from the grace of God, from God's new covenant way.

The kingdom in its reality, or the reality of the kingdom, is an exercise and a discipline to us Matthew 5:3, 10, 20; Matthew 7:21 in the church today whereas the kingdom in its manifestation will be a reward and an enjoyment to us Matthew 16:27; Matthew 25:21, 23 in the millennial kingdom in the coming age.

If we take the Spirit's exercise and God's discipline in the reality of the kingdom today, we will receive the Lord's reward and enter into the enjoyment of the coming Sabbath rest Hebrews 4:9 in the manifestation of the kingdom in the coming age; otherwise, we will miss the coming kingdom, we will not be rewarded with the manifestation of the kingdom at the Lord's coming back, we will have no right to enter into the glory of the kingdom to participate in Christ's reign in the millennial kingdom, and we will lose our birthright and therefore will be unable to inherit the earth in the coming age, to be the royal priests serving God and Christ in His manifested glory, and to be Christ's co-kings ruling all the nations with His divine authority Revelation 20:4, 6.

To miss the coming kingdom and to forfeit our birthright does not mean that we will perish. It means that we will lose the reward but not our salvation. We will suffer loss but still will be saved, yet so as through fire 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

This is the basic concept on which all five warnings in Hebrews are given and with which they are all pervaded. All the negative points of these warnings are related to the suffering of the loss of the reward in the coming kingdom, whereas all the positive points are related to the reward and enjoyment of the kingdom. All seven epistles in Revelation 2 and 3 conclude with this same concept — the reward of the kingdom or the loss of it.

Here's a list of scripture pertaining to rewards:
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 16:24-27; Matthew 19:23-30; Matthew 24:46-51; Matthew 25:11-13, 21, 23, Matthew 25:26-30; Luke 12:42-48; Luke 19:17, 19, Luke 19:22-27; Romans 14:10, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-15; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:7-8; Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 4:1, 9, 11;Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:16-17, 28-29; and Revelation 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; Revelation 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; Revelation 22:12.​

 

[Cassia]

Discipleship

G3101 ~ disciple, occurs 268 times in 252 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
Yet 'disciples' is not found at all in the epistles. Christians in the epistles are addressed corporately as saints or separated ones.

The term disciple marks an individual's relationship existing between Christ and the single soul of each of His followers, marking our everyday existance with Him as our true relationship with Him. It gives the picture of Him peering over us as His pupil and imparting knowledge into us, precept upon precept, step by step, working toward a definate end. A disciple is one who sits at His feet and learns from Him. In the desires of the heart the disciple is desiring the same as the Master. To them He is the lifeforce of learning-obeying-and renewing. Disciples are those who gather 'round His feet, are trained by Him, His cover over them.

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets are summed up in "loving God with all our hearts, all our strength and all our will" as well as loving neighbour as ourselves. Forsaking all to follow Him is akin to the idea of loving God first and foremost as the only qualifyer for discipleship. Luke 14:26, Luke 18:29 something that is impossible without God's help of turning from all other idols to turn toward God. Those who follow after richess in life may now have all the rewards they are ever going to get. But those who forsake all to follow Him will sit with Him to judge in the coming age. Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:27-28

Discipleship rather than corperate belonging is that which is of a highest quality to press toward daily. I know that sounds like a simplistic thought but it really ran deep for me this morning when thinking about it. ONLY His disciples will have a place with Him in the millenium (which matters not to those who believe we're in it now I guess)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2KOCgC8DnU

 

[TurtleHare]

I don't think that there are any one of us who do not believe in free will. If there is no freewill then this time of testing that is called being human is just a cruel joke. It would be as if we are pawns in a chess game played by an unseen force that placed some on the black team and others on the white team. And who gets to say who is on what team? Surely not you or I! And not all is black and white to us here in the game of life. Christianity is made up of so many belief systems that only serve to divide and exclude when only one belief sets us apart from the rest of the world. Belief that initially set us apart to God comes from hearing we are told. It comes from a place outside of ourselves, from the Holy Spirit. Being a Christian is determined on whether we believe on the one fact of Christ Jesus. Belief thereby brings the Holy Spirit to a place within. From there we can either grieve the Spirit who is sealed with us or accomadate Him according to what one allows into their lives. I can see Him being grieved by anything that contradicts the fact of One body, One Spirit and One with the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the head to which we are equally members of the body. If we are not equally the body then the head is being usurped. But we are ignorant beings in that we ignor the fact of the substance to dwell on the pattern that is set as an analogy of understanding and thereby causing division and exclusion. That does not come from God but from the men on the chessboard.

some Notes from Barnes

Hearing puts one in a position (disposed or inclined) to accept as truth that which is heard. Titus 3:5-6; John 1:13
That arrangement has come from God and has not arisen from one's own self. One is then disposed to embrace eternal life because of what He has done and lay hold of salvation. That implies election but in fact makes one accessable to God's own unchangeable plan. Acts 18:10; Romans 8:28-30; 9:15-16,21,23; Ephesians 1:4-5,11. The outcome is determined whether one believes or does not believe.

Who were THEN disposed, and in good earnest determined, to embrace eternal life, by the operation of the grace of God on their hearts.

There are plenty of believers who don't believe in free will if you're talking about justification for our salvation since we can't save ourselves in any way because we are naturally enemies of God and our will can't accept what is deemed as foolishness to unbelievers and that's why it's not our will that is free at all. If your talking about every day decisions then have at it because we are free to make those kind of choices as to what we want to be when we grow up and such and such and such. I do agree with that you say it comes from outside of ourselves and that in itself proves that the will is not free when it's up to the Holy Spirit to set our will free but the will isn't free to set itself free if you follow.

 

[psalms 91]

There are plenty of believers who don't believe in free will if you're talking about justification for our salvation since we can't save ourselves in any way because we are naturally enemies of God and our will can't accept what is deemed as foolishness to unbelievers and that's why it's not our will that is free at all. If your talking about every day decisions then have at it because we are free to make those kind of choices as to what we want to be when we grow up and such and such and such. I do agree with that you say it comes from outside of ourselves and that in itself proves that the will is not free when it's up to the Holy Spirit to set our will free but the will isn't free to set itself free if you follow.

I think you overthink it and complicate what really isnt