Pilate’s regret

[Lees]

The sigh reminds me of more Bible texts. Lees wants Bible texts. He'll get Bible texts.

OK. (John 14:13-14) says, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Is this verse true? If I ask anything in Jesus name He will do it? Anything?

Lees

 

[Messy]

It was said to Israel under the offer of the Kingdom.

Yes, Paul healed as did other apostles. I have said that the gift of healing exists in the Church. But not as a travelling snake oil show. What is the basis for your statement that evangelist's have the gift of healing? Just because they say so?

Physical healing plays no role in one going to heaven. Where did you get that? Just because Jesus physically healed someone or they followed Him because of the miracles He did, means nothing. In fact it can create a superficial response. (John 2:23-25)

Lees

Nobody cares. They always say that to not believe what God says. Goodness that reminds me of a modalist who thought he could sin as much as he wanted, use pot, watch porn, because 'Jesus only said that to the Israelites then. It doesnt count anymore.'

Because they have. People get saved and healed. Same as in the N.T.

Would it irritate you if I called your church a snake show when they pray for healing? Then why do you do that to others? Watch out that you don't do the same as the pharisees.
It can play a role.

So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain [b]nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”

49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”

50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”

52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.

 

[Messy]

OK. (John 14:13-14) says, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Is this verse true? If I ask anything in Jesus name He will do it? Anything?

Lees

If you don't doubt and don't ask for a Mercedes for your own lusts.

 

[Messy]

You can sigh all you like. You have given no Scripture to support your view.

Your view is your 'polite way' of saying the gifts have ceased. You want to say that the gifts are no longer needed to be common in the church.

But, here again, you have no Scripture to support your view.

'sigh'

Give your view and the Scriptural basis for it. Pretty simple. 'sigh'

Lees

He never said that. He believes similar as you. Healing in church is fine. You both hate snake oil shows. I hate them too, but I also hate that you throw it on one bunch. Todd Bentley was a snake show. Not even snake oil. He went out of his body and met the angel from Branham. But you can't throw him and Reinhard Bonnke on one bunch. The devil just imitates and you need to discern what is from God and what is from satan.

 

[Messy]

E

OK. (John 14:13-14) says, "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Is this verse true? If I ask anything in Jesus name He will do it? Anything?

Lees

Context

11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

What kind of works? He was healing the sick and kicking out demons.

James 4:3​

​

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

This is some selfish christian wanting a big fat house or a car or other luxury. That is false teaching that you can demand money to come and steal it from the widows in your church.
But a kid not wanting to choke to death on asthma is not a selfish brat. What kind of psycho parent says: No I don't give you meds and dont bring you to the hospital and here's another sickness to teach you to suffer and love me more.
Yet this is what Calvin says about God and then if an ex christian calls God evil they're shocked. You just taught em that.

 

[Albion]

You can sigh all you like. You have given no Scripture to support your view...Your view is your 'polite way' of saying the gifts have ceased. .

No, you demanded that I give Scripture that doesn't support the view I took some care to explain. Then you sneered at the fact that I do try to explain what my views are.

Now you are trying to get out of your slip-up by claiming that when I explained my view, I was actually saying that I believe the opposite of that!

You should not wonder why my reaction to your confusion or strategy, or whatever you were doing...was a big sigh!

You have a nice day now, Lees.

 

[Albion]

He never said that. He believes similar as you.

Thank you, and you are of course right that we all reject the snake oil salesmen and shows. I do, however, wonder how we'd distinguish between the travelling medicine man/TV huckster figure and the local preacher who essentially does the same thing but with a smaller audience.

Healing in church is fine. You both hate snake oil shows. I hate them too, but I also hate that you throw it on one bunch. Todd Bentley was a snake show. Not even snake oil. He went out of his body and met the angel from Branham. But you can't throw him and Reinhard Bonnke on one bunch. The devil just imitates and you need to discern what is from God and what is from satan.

 

[Lees]

Nobody cares. They always say that to not believe what God says. Goodness that reminds me of a modalist who thought he could sin as much as he wanted, use pot, watch porn, because 'Jesus only said that to the Israelites then. It doesnt count anymore.'

Because they have. People get saved and healed. Same as in the N.T.

Would it irritate you if I called your church a snake show when they pray for healing? Then why do you do that to others? Watch out that you don't do the same as the pharisees.
It can play a role.

So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain [b]nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”

49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”

50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”

52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.

I care. The instructions given in (Matt. 10:6-15) were under the gospel of the Kingdom. Only applied to Israel. (10:6) That changed later. (Luke 22:35-38)

Salvation and physical healing don't need to occur at the same time. It's not necessary that an evangelist have also the gift of healing.

I never said your church was like a travelling snake oil show because you pray for healing. I have said that healing is a gift to be used in the Church for the edification of the Church. Not to be taken on the road like a circus show.

And many saw the miracles and signs and wonders and did not believe. (Luke 17:11-19) Understand that Jesus and the disciples before Pentecost were not exercising the 'gift of healing'. There was no gift of healing till after Pentecost.

Lees

 

[Lees]

If you don't doubt and don't ask for a Mercedes for your own lusts.

In other words there are conditions. Such as also the 'will of God'.

In other words, you can't just ask anything. God will never answer a prayer of anyone's that He doesn't want to. And it is not always His will to heal.

Lees

 

[Lees]

No, you demanded that I give Scripture that doesn't support the view I took some care to explain. Then you sneered at the fact that I do try to explain what my views are.

Now you are trying to get out of your slip-up by claiming that when I explained my view, I was actually saying that I believe the opposite of that!

You should not wonder why my reaction to your confusion or strategy, or whatever you were doing...was a big sigh!

You have a nice day now, Lees.

No, I demanded you give your view and support it with Scripture. post #(59) Your 'explanations' are meaningless without Scripture.

As I said, it will help to know which are the fringe churches you speak of.

Of course I don't wonder at your reaction and response. It's always the same.

Lees

 

[Albion]

No, I demanded you give your view

You made that demand after I'd already given my view--several times.

 

[Lees]

You made that demand after I'd already given my view--several times.

No, I gave that demand because your view was unclear and without Scripture. Post #(59) Go back and show me where you gave your view several times and give Scripture to support.

As I have said, there are two opposing views in the Church concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit. One is that they have ceased. The other is that they still exist.

Lees

 

[Messy]

Thank you, and you are of course right that we all reject the snake oil salesmen and shows. I do, however, wonder how we'd distinguish between the travelling medicine man/TV huckster figure and the local preacher who essentially does the same thing but with a smaller audience.

I wouldn't look at: is it a big show or a tiny church? If the big show is bad, so is the tiny church that believes the same and gets their beliefs from the show. Look at the fruit and listen to what they teach. If they talk about money and live like a king I wouldn't immediately say it is surely demonic, but I stay away from it. Kenneth Copeland, I heard him speak in tongues on youtube. I flee far and fast. Eeww. And I used to think he was okay.
So insane much money is a red flag, but I also read that God told people to pray for Morris Cerullo and one dreamed that he said: thanks guys! This could have killed me. Reinhard Bonnke, no unbiblical teaching, lot of Africans got saved, people got healed. That was a great ministry. But for instance Todd Bentley, screaming that 23 dead were raised, which was a lie, he was cheating with his nanny on his wife and then you're supposed to believe that God uses him and raises 23 dead through him? No way. They have to lead a holy life, husband of one wife, like the Bible says, not a new convert, well known by others.

 

[Albion]

I wouldn't look at: is it a big show or a tiny church?

Agreed.

If the big show is bad, so is the tiny church that believes the same and gets their beliefs from the show.

Agreed.

Look at the fruit and listen to what they teach. If they talk about money and live like a king I wouldn't immediately say it is surely demonic, but I stay away from it.

I kind of agree, but whether or not the huckster profits isn't the whole of the issue. It's also about what they are preaching and, in the case of our discussion here, what they are teaching about the gifts, who is gifted, how that happens, and so on.

 

[Messy]

In other words there are conditions. Such as also the 'will of God'.

In other words, you can't just ask anything. God will never answer a prayer of anyone's that He doesn't want to. And it is not always His will to heal.

Lees

There's one instance where I agree. (That He didn't want to heal the pharisees is something else. They went too far.)
Lazarus.
He stayed there 2 days when He heard it on purpose to make the miracle bigger and get more people saved. That one I can understand or if it is someone's time, but for the rest no I don't see Him say anywhere that He doesn't want to heal someone.

 

[Lees]

There's one instance where I agree. (That He didn't want to heal the pharisees is something else. They went too far.)
Lazarus.
He stayed there 2 days when He heard it on purpose to make the miracle bigger and get more people saved. That one I can understand or if it is someone's time, but for the rest no I don't see Him say anywhere that He doesn't want to heal someone.

In other words, the will of God is the basis for any who are healed. God is not going to heal someone He doesn't want to heal just because you say so. Just because you say 'BE HEALED' doesn't cause God to heel like a dog. As I said, you present God like a credit card.

Do you understand that the gift of healing in the Church is not the same as the miracles and signs and wonders as I mentioned in post #(88)?

Did Paul have the ability to heal? Yes. Yet God refused his request concerning his thorn in the flesh. (2 Cor. 12:9) Did Timothy have stomach issues. Yet Paul didn't heal him. (1 Tim. 5:23)

If God brings sickness on a believer, for whatever reason, who are you to heal them? Are you greater than God?

Lees

 

[Albion]

No, I gave that demand because your view was unclear

You didn't get it, I understand.

However, it couldn't have been clearer and was stated more than once.

As I have said, there are two opposing views in the Church concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And as I have said, that's not correct. There are more than two, but you are apparently geared to deal with only one--beside you own, of course.

One is that they have ceased. The other is that they still exist.

And another is that it's not an "all or nothing" situation. Not recognizing that fact and then overlooking this bloc of Christians may be the reason you're having such a difficult time with this thread.

 

[Messy]

In other words, the will of God is the basis for any who are healed. God is not going to heal someone He doesn't want to heal just because you say so. Just because you say 'BE HEALED' doesn't cause God to heel like a dog. As I said, you present God like a credit card.

Do you understand that the gift of healing in the Church is not the same as the miracles and signs and wonders as I mentioned in post #(88)?

Did Paul have the ability to heal? Yes. Yet God refused his request concerning his thorn in the flesh. (2 Cor. 12:9) Did Timothy have stomach issues. Yet Paul didn't heal him. (1 Tim. 5:23)

If God brings sickness on a believer, for whatever reason, who are you to heal them? Are you greater than God?

Lees

God does not bring sickness on someone. Jesus carried our sicknesses on the cross. It's just like saying: God does not want to save everyone. Are you bigger than God? No but I just look at what He reveals about His will in Scripture. Pray for all man cause God wants everyone saved. Don't pray for those who sin unto death. So I'm not gonna lay hands on Putin or on someone who lives in sin and btw in my case actually noone except family and unsaved and animals, cause I'm not a minister.
The first time they taught me this I had the same response as you, but they taught me from Scripture. It is always God's will. Jesus paid for it already. By His stripes we are healed. And yes when God decides He wants someone to go to heaven, like I said, Smith Wigglesworth just raised his wife from the dead, because God gave us authority and He had to say to him: Let her go. It's her time. We had some gypsies in church. Their grandma died. They just commanded her to come back and she said: Let me go. I was just walking with Jesus.
And the stomping thorn was not a sickness but those people who beat him up, inspired by satan. And it doesn't say that God did not want to heal Timothy. Sometimes you just need a natural solution and Paul was not Jesus and not perfect.

 

[Messy]

In other words, the will of God is the basis for any who are healed. God is not going to heal someone He doesn't want to heal just because you say so. Just because you say 'BE HEALED' doesn't cause God to heel like a dog.

I don't command God to heal. He commands me to heal in His Name in the Bible and of course you listen to what He says.
He said to Harold Hill: Don't pray for that woman and he did anyway, asked her if he could pray for her and she got mad. She said she wanted to sit in a wheelchair and be pushed around by her man.
I command the sickness to leave in Jesus' Name. I command the demon to leave. I command the body to function as God wants it to and to be made whole. I don't order God around.

 

[Albion]

I don't command God to heal. He commands me to heal in His Name in the Bible and of course you listen to what He says.
He said to Harold Hill: Don't pray for that woman and he did anyway, asked her if he could pray for her and she got mad. She said she wanted to sit in a wheelchair and be pushed around by her man.
I command the sickness to leave in Jesus' Name. I command the demon to leave. I command the body to function as God wants it to and to be made whole. I don't order God around.

Yes, but there is an issue here. Many people who are into the gifts also hold the belief that every true believer must be exercising one or more of the gifts and seem to feel that they are supposed to lay hands on whoever and whenever, and it will happen. That's because, you know, they received the gift.

BUT THAT MEANS, doesn't it, that these people are deciding for God (or at least suppose that they are)?