O.T. Canon Lists

Origen

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Exactly, none of which are ante nicene
Clearly you have no idea what the words Ante-Nicene means. The word "ante" means before so "ante nicene" mean "before nicene." The council of Nicaea was held in 325.
 

Andrew

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Clearly you have no idea what the words Ante-Nicene means. The word "ante" means before so "ante nicene" mean "before nicene." The council of Nicaea was held in 325.
Exactly, your list you quoted are after 325, thats why I said "none of which are ante nicene"
 

Origen

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Exactly, your list you quoted are after 325, thats why I said "none of which are ante nicene"
Try reading.

The Bryennios List dates to 2nd century A.D.
Melito's list is dated to A.D. 170.
Origen's list dates between A.D. 220-240.

Now provide a canon list from before Nicaea which includes the books of Maccabees.
 

Andrew

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Try reading.

The Bryennios List dates to 2nd century A.D.
Melito's list is dated to A.D. 170.
Origen's list dates between A.D. 220-240.

Now provide a canon list from before Nicaea which includes the books of Maccabees.
Sure thing, its listed in the ante-masoretic Bible called the LXX that the first Christians used
 

Origen

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Sure thing, its listed in the ante-masoretic Bible called the LXX that the first Christians used
That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those do not agree with each other.

Care to try again?
 
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Andrew

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That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those does not agree with each other.

Care to try again?
Okay so these books shouldn't exist, must be a glitch in the matrix, how in the world did these strange books get into our Bible in the first place?
Ancient Aliens?
I mean it's a total mystery! If Christians rejected them then... aliens right?

Im just so glad that Jerome saved us from the wicked tradition of the former Christians OT scripture and accepted the Christ rejection canon of scripture because as we all know, God himself did not prepare the gentile Christians with the inspired hebrew scripture unless only in hebrew

400 years of silence right? The OT was cut and then POOF it started back up again with the NT!

Its like God took a bathroom break or 400 years
 

Andrew

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That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those do not agree with each other.

Care to try again?
Oh but the original Hebrew cannot be found either... what can you say about that?
 

Origen

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Okay so these books shouldn't exist
I never suggested anything like that.

how in the world did these strange books get into our Bible in the first place? Ancient Aliens?
That view has as much evidence to support it as the one you have presented thus far.

Im just so glad that Jerome saved us from the wicked tradition of the former Christians OT scripture and accepted the Christ rejection canon of scripture because as we all know, God himself did not prepare the gentile Christians with the inspired hebrew scripture unless only in hebrew
Thanks for your opinion but I find no reason to accept it.
 
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Origen

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Oh but the original Hebrew cannot be found either... what can you say about that?
Never said it could. How does that prove\support your claims?
 

pinacled

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I can imagine why ezra wouldn't be accepted by a Lawfull Hebrew.
Its appalling that divorce and abandoning children would be acceptable.

[9. Ezra is informed that some of the Jews already in Jerusalem have married non-Jewish women. Ezra is appalled at this proof of sin, and prays to God: "O God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."10. Despite the opposition of some of their number, the Israelites assemble and send away their foreign wives and children.]
 

pinacled

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I can imagine why ezra wouldn't be accepted by a Lawfull Hebrew.
Its appalling that divorce and abandoning children would be acceptable.

[9. Ezra is informed that some of the Jews already in Jerusalem have married non-Jewish women. Ezra is appalled at this proof of sin, and prays to God: "O God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."10. Despite the opposition of some of their number, the Israelites assemble and send away their foreign wives and children.]
Malachi
16 “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful ]
 

pinacled

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Before moving on to the 4th century lists, the Jewish sources must be examined.

Josephus (Against Apion I.37–44) This work is dated ca. A.D. 95.
Unfortunately Josephus does not list the books by name.

He states: "Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time."

Joesphus gives the number of books as 22. That number will be cited by many church fathers. Origen give the number as 22 and this will be important.

He states: Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver.

He states: "From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books."

He states: "The remaining four books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life."

I. The five books of Moses are the Torah (i.e. Pentateuch).
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy

II. The remaining four books contain hymns and precepts.
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon

This section comes third in Josephus's comments. It seems certain these are the four books he means. It is the next section that need to be unpacked.

III. The prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books.
Joshua
Judges- Ruth
1-2 Samuel
1-2 Kings
1-2 Chronicles
Ezra-Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Isaiah
Jeremiah-Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
12 Minor Prophet

In order to get the number 13 certain books have to be grouped together. As mentioned above, Origen gave the number of books as 22 but places certain books into groups. For example Origen writes:

"Judges and Ruth, among them in one book"
"the first and second of Kings, among them one"
"of the Chronicles, the first and second in one"

These types of grouping were completely normal.

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra 14b–15a
The Babylonian Talmud is the only Jewish document that lists the books by name. There are a couple of points to note. First, in the Babylonian Talmud this is a baraita. That means it is a tradition not incorporated in the Mishnah. However, the phrase "Our Rabbis taught" is the standard phrase introducing a tannaitic tradition (i.e. placing it in the 2nd century A.D.). Second, the Babylonian Talmud itself dates to ca. sixth century.

"Our Rabbis taught: The order of the Prophets is, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the Twelve Minor Prophets. Let us examine this. Hosea came first, as it is written, God spake first to Hosea [Hos. 1:2]. But did God speak first to Hosea? Were there not many prophets between Moses and Hosea? R. Joḥanan, however, has explained that [what it means is that] he was the first of the four prophets who prophesied at that period, namely, Hosea, Isaiah, Amos, and Micah. Should not then Hosea come first?—Since his prophecy is written along with those of Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, and Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi came at the end of the prophets, he is reckoned with them. But why should he not be written separately and placed first?—Since his book is so small, it might be lost [if copied separately]. Let us see again. Isaiah was prior to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Then why should not Isaiah be placed first?—Because the Book of Kings ends with a record of destruction and Jeremiah speaks throughout of destruction and Ezekiel commences with destruction and ends with consolation and Isaiah is full of consolation; therefore we put destruction next to destruction and consolation next to consolation.

The order of the Writings is Ruth, the Book of Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel and the Scroll of Esther, Ezra and Chronicles. Now on the view that Job lived in the days of Moses, should not the book of Job come first?—We do not begin with a record of suffering. But Ruth also is a record of suffering?—It is a suffering with a sequel [of happiness], as R. Joḥanan said: Why was her name called Ruth?—Because there issued from her David who replenished the Holy One, blessed be He, with hymns and praises.

Who wrote the Scriptures?—Moses wrote his own book and the portion of Balaam and Job. Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and [the last] eight verses of the Pentateuch. Samuel wrote the book which bears his name and the Book of Judges and Ruth. David wrote the Book of Psalms, including in it the work of the elders, namely, Adam, Melchizedek, Abraham, Moses, Heman, Yeduthun, Asaph, Korah. Jeremiah wrote the book which bears his name, the Book of Kings, and Lamentations. Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote (Mnemonic YMSHḲ) Isaiah, Proverbs, the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. The Men of the Great Assembly wrote (Mnemonic ḲNDG) Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Daniel and the Scroll of Esther. Ezra wrote the book that bears his name and the genealogies of the Book of Chronicles up to his own time. This confirms the opinion of Rab, since Rab Judah has said in the name of Rab: Ezra did not leave Babylon to go up to Eretz Yisrael until he had written his own genealogy. Who then finished it [the Book of Chronicles]?—Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah."


Note that the books of the Torah are not specifically named. However it is very safe to assume all the books of the Pentateuch were part of the Jewish canon. They are divided into two

The Torah (assumed)

The Nevi'im - the Prophets
Joshua
Judges
1-2 Samuel
1-2 Kings
1-2 Chronicles
Jeremiah
Ezekiel
Isaiah
12 Minor Prophet

The Ketuvim - The Writings
Ruth
Psalms
Job
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Songs
Lamentations
Esther
Ezra
Chronicles

It is very likely that the book of Nehemiah, though not explicitly mentioned, would have been grouped with Ezra. Nehemiah is mentioned in the above text. In this list Ruth is not grouped with Judges nor is Lamentations grouped with Jeremiah. If they were grouped together, as normally done, that would bring the number of books to 22.
The order i see is 5-12-5
Numerically relative to the mishkan(tabernacle)
A divine symmetry.

Blessings Always
 
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NathanH83

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Ah, I see this conversation is allowed
 

pinacled

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eddif

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How about a parallel?
God wrote our genetic books. Our human structure and development and operation written. If errors in cell replication occurthe errant strands are set aside and hopefully correct sequences are inserted.
Although genetic errors do happen, I am amazed at the correctness that still exists.

Biblical books have been set aside (in many cases still available for study). I stand in awe of the purity that exists in scripture.

eddif
 
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