- Jan 1, 2021
- Religious Affiliation
- Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Try reading.Exactly, your list you quoted are after 325, thats why I said "none of which are ante nicene"
Sure thing, its listed in the ante-masoretic Bible called the LXX that the first Christians usedTry reading.
The Bryennios List dates to 2nd century A.D.
Melito's list is dated to A.D. 170.
Origen's list dates between A.D. 220-240.
Now provide a canon list from before Nicaea which includes the books of Maccabees.
That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those do not agree with each other.Sure thing, its listed in the ante-masoretic Bible called the LXX that the first Christians used
Okay so these books shouldn't exist, must be a glitch in the matrix, how in the world did these strange books get into our Bible in the first place?That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those does not agree with each other.
Care to try again?
Oh but the original Hebrew cannot be found either... what can you say about that?That is wrong. We have no manuscripts of the LXX dating before Nicaea that have the books of Maccabees. The ones we do have date to the 4th century and even those do not agree with each other.
Care to try again?
I never suggested anything like that.Okay so these books shouldn't exist
That view has as much evidence to support it as the one you have presented thus far.how in the world did these strange books get into our Bible in the first place? Ancient Aliens?
Thanks for your opinion but I find no reason to accept it.Im just so glad that Jerome saved us from the wicked tradition of the former Christians OT scripture and accepted the Christ rejection canon of scripture because as we all know, God himself did not prepare the gentile Christians with the inspired hebrew scripture unless only in hebrew
MalachiI can imagine why ezra wouldn't be accepted by a Lawfull Hebrew.
Its appalling that divorce and abandoning children would be acceptable.
[9. Ezra is informed that some of the Jews already in Jerusalem have married non-Jewish women. Ezra is appalled at this proof of sin, and prays to God: "O God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."10. Despite the opposition of some of their number, the Israelites assemble and send away their foreign wives and children.]
The order i see is 5-12-5Before moving on to the 4th century lists, the Jewish sources must be examined.
Josephus (Against Apion I.37–44) This work is dated ca. A.D. 95.
Unfortunately Josephus does not list the books by name.
He states: "Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time."
Joesphus gives the number of books as 22. That number will be cited by many church fathers. Origen give the number as 22 and this will be important.
He states: Of these, five are the books of Moses, comprising the laws and the traditional history from the birth of man down to the death of the lawgiver.
He states: "From the death of Moses until Artaxerxes, who succeeded Xerxes as king of Persia, the prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books."
He states: "The remaining four books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life."
I. The five books of Moses are the Torah (i.e. Pentateuch).
II. The remaining four books contain hymns and precepts.
Song of Solomon
This section comes third in Josephus's comments. It seems certain these are the four books he means. It is the next section that need to be unpacked.
III. The prophets subsequent to Moses wrote the history of the events of their own times in thirteen books.
12 Minor Prophet
In order to get the number 13 certain books have to be grouped together. As mentioned above, Origen gave the number of books as 22 but places certain books into groups. For example Origen writes:
"Judges and Ruth, among them in one book"
"the first and second of Kings, among them one"
"of the Chronicles, the first and second in one"
These types of grouping were completely normal.
Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra 14b–15a
The Babylonian Talmud is the only Jewish document that lists the books by name. There are a couple of points to note. First, in the Babylonian Talmud this is a baraita. That means it is a tradition not incorporated in the Mishnah. However, the phrase "Our Rabbis taught" is the standard phrase introducing a tannaitic tradition (i.e. placing it in the 2nd century A.D.). Second, the Babylonian Talmud itself dates to ca. sixth century.
"Our Rabbis taught: The order of the Prophets is, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the Twelve Minor Prophets. Let us examine this. Hosea came first, as it is written, God spake first to Hosea [Hos. 1:2]. But did God speak first to Hosea? Were there not many prophets between Moses and Hosea? R. Joḥanan, however, has explained that [what it means is that] he was the first of the four prophets who prophesied at that period, namely, Hosea, Isaiah, Amos, and Micah. Should not then Hosea come first?—Since his prophecy is written along with those of Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi, and Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi came at the end of the prophets, he is reckoned with them. But why should he not be written separately and placed first?—Since his book is so small, it might be lost [if copied separately]. Let us see again. Isaiah was prior to Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Then why should not Isaiah be placed first?—Because the Book of Kings ends with a record of destruction and Jeremiah speaks throughout of destruction and Ezekiel commences with destruction and ends with consolation and Isaiah is full of consolation; therefore we put destruction next to destruction and consolation next to consolation.
The order of the Writings is Ruth, the Book of Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations, Daniel and the Scroll of Esther, Ezra and Chronicles. Now on the view that Job lived in the days of Moses, should not the book of Job come first?—We do not begin with a record of suffering. But Ruth also is a record of suffering?—It is a suffering with a sequel [of happiness], as R. Joḥanan said: Why was her name called Ruth?—Because there issued from her David who replenished the Holy One, blessed be He, with hymns and praises.
Who wrote the Scriptures?—Moses wrote his own book and the portion of Balaam and Job. Joshua wrote the book which bears his name and [the last] eight verses of the Pentateuch. Samuel wrote the book which bears his name and the Book of Judges and Ruth. David wrote the Book of Psalms, including in it the work of the elders, namely, Adam, Melchizedek, Abraham, Moses, Heman, Yeduthun, Asaph, Korah. Jeremiah wrote the book which bears his name, the Book of Kings, and Lamentations. Hezekiah and his colleagues wrote (Mnemonic YMSHḲ) Isaiah, Proverbs, the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. The Men of the Great Assembly wrote (Mnemonic ḲNDG) Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets, Daniel and the Scroll of Esther. Ezra wrote the book that bears his name and the genealogies of the Book of Chronicles up to his own time. This confirms the opinion of Rab, since Rab Judah has said in the name of Rab: Ezra did not leave Babylon to go up to Eretz Yisrael until he had written his own genealogy. Who then finished it [the Book of Chronicles]?—Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah."
Note that the books of the Torah are not specifically named. However it is very safe to assume all the books of the Pentateuch were part of the Jewish canon. They are divided into two
The Torah (assumed)
The Nevi'im - the Prophets
12 Minor Prophet
The Ketuvim - The Writings
Song of Songs
It is very likely that the book of Nehemiah, though not explicitly mentioned, would have been grouped with Ezra. Nehemiah is mentioned in the above text. In this list Ruth is not grouped with Judges nor is Lamentations grouped with Jeremiah. If they were grouped together, as normally done, that would bring the number of books to 22.