Not permitting a woman to teach...does that include hymn writing?

[grumix8]

Now, the 1Tim 2:12 MIS-UNDERSTANDING. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". here silence is used also .... WHY? to learn from her HUSBAND. this is a HOME setting, meaning a Husband and wife. for the term "Woman" here is the same, it's
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

and how do we know it is speaking of a "WIFE?" answer, verse 15,
1Tim 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Question, what kind of WOMAN bear children? a married one .... LEGALLY, BINGO, a wife.

the Word of God is supposed to be taught by the head of the HOUESE, in this case, the HUSBAND. he is to teach, or instruct his wife and children about God, and the things of God. hence the responsibility according to the GENERAL LAEW of Marriage.

so this is a HOUSEHOLD SETTING.... so, no, not all women in General.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
FAQ: What about Deborah in the Old Testament book of judges? Exactly how was
she an exception to the rule, if indeed she was?

REPLY: Things are quite a bit different now with Christ at the helm, i.e. Christ's
association with his church trumps Deborah's association with the Jews. I do not
recommend using her, or any other woman in the Bible, as an excuse to defy
Christ's edicts in matters pertaining to the governance of Christian congregations.

And besides: Debbie was neither a priest nor a member of the Sanhedrin. Her
involvement in the Jews' religious affairs was limited to her position as a judge.
Temple business was none of her business: same goes for Miriam (Ex 15:20)
Asahiah (2Kgs 22:14) and Huldah (2Chron 24:32).

* Paul appealed to "the law" as the basis for 1Cor 14:34. Normally when Paul
speaks of the law he's referring to the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon
with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Exactly where in the covenant that women are forbidden to preach, or teach, or
usurp authority over men in matters of religion, I don't know. However, it's quite
obvious that the covenant is very sexist, i.e. women are not permitted in either the
priesthood or the Sanhedrin.

NOTE: The law doesn't always speak explicitly about certain things. Sometimes the
law's rules and procedures imply principles that we call "the spirit of the law".
Whereas anybody can parrot the law, not just anyone is able to discern the spirit of
the law. (cf. Neh 8:1-8)
_

 

[Albion]

Exactly where in the covenant that women are forbidden to preach, or teach, or
usurp authority over men in matters of religion, I don't know. However, it's quite
obvious that the covenant is very sexist, i.e. women are not permitted in either the
priesthood or the Sanhedrin.

It's necessary to be very specific when speaking about these matters. To teach doesn't automatically mean to be a priest, even if priests do teach.

And while there were women who engaged in a range of important duties in the early church, there were no women deacons, priests, or bishops, which is precluded by the needed qualifications as given in the New Testament.

 

[prism]

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

i would ask in response, 'Does writing hymns involve assuming authority over a man?'

 

[Albion]

i would ask in response, 'Does writing hymns involve assuming authority over a man?'

Well, there are three different ideas mentioned in that line--women teaching, women assuming authority over men, and women being quiet.

When the question is asked about women writing hymns, which some women have done, the inquiry seems to be directed at the teaching function, since hymns undeniably assert doctrinal ideas.

 

[prism]

Well, there are three different ideas mentioned in that line--women teaching, women assuming authority over men, and women being quiet.

When the question is asked about women writing hymns, which some women have done, the inquiry seems to be directed at the teaching function, since hymns undeniably assert doctrinal ideas.

Ok, I would think that in writing hymns, the woman would have the approval of her husband or pastor, otherwise in a sense she is violating all three ideas.

 

[Albion]

Ok, I would think that in writing hymns, the woman would have the approval of her husband or pastor, otherwise in a sense she is violating all three ideas.

I understand what you're thinking, but this would be the usual and traditional explanation--

The idea of women as teachers does not transgress upon the male-only nature of the clergy (deacons, presbyters, bishops), all of which are identified in the New Testament as men. Women were, however, teachers (especially of other women and children), emissaries, convenors of new congregations, and as prophets. But not clergy/pastors.

To the extent that the lyrics of hymns might logically be seen as a form of teaching, you might have a point. But on the other hand, how much teaching occurs in a hymn simply because concepts that are already well-established in the Church are quickly referred to? There doesn't seem to be much controversy over this one.

The other two, from 1 Timothy 2:12, are usually understood to be Paul's own thinking about the conduct of affairs in the churches that he visited. HE doesn't permit....

That's the way the passage puts it, not as "Take it from me that God does not allow...."

And the reason Paul spoke out was because he was offended by the lack of order he observed in the church. A feature of that was the very vocal arguing that went on between some of the women in the assembly (who, however, couldn't be pastors, so maybe this was one of the few ways they could participate?).

Paul thought that they should be quiet because, for one thing, they were making their husbands look bad by the way they, the women, were acting. This is why Paul is sometimes vilified as a sexist, but it's not usually thought to establish any doctrine.

 

[prism]

And the reason Paul spoke out was because he was offended by the lack of order he observed in the church. A feature of that was the very vocal arguing that went on between some of the women in the assembly (who, however, couldn't be pastors, so maybe this was one of the few ways they could participate?).

I believe Paul makes it quite clear why he didn't allow for women teaching or assuming authority over men (he says so in the next two following verses...

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

It had little to do with the temporal/local quarrels amongst the womenfolk.

We can mention only one point (which experience confirms), namely, that next to the Word of God, music deserves the highest praise. No greater commendation than this can be found — at least not by us. After all, the gift of language combined with the gift of song was only given to man to let him know that he should praise God with both word and music, namely, by proclaiming [the Word of God] through music....-Martin Luther's Works vol . 53

 

[Albion]

I believe Paul makes it quite clear why he didn't allow for women teaching or assuming authority over men (he says so in the next two following verses...

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

It had little to do with the temporal/local quarrels amongst the womenfolk.

That was part of his thinking, and it was referred to in my reply, although without quoting all those verses. But at the same time, what you added doesn't change anything about the basic answer to the problem that you asked us about.

 

[prism]

That was part of his thinking, and it was referred to in my reply, although without quoting all those verses. But at the same time, what you added doesn't change anything about the basic answer to the problem that you asked us about.

I guess I'm not in sync with 'usual and traditional explanation--'

 

[Albion]

I guess I'm not in sync with 'usual and traditional explanation--'

If you are not, you're still entitled to believe almost anything you want concerning this issue.

However, you asked the question without also asking what any one particular church or one particular poster here on the forums thinks about the matter, so referring you to the answer that is the norm among Christian churches seemed the only good way to respond.

 

[prism]

If you are not, you're still entitled to believe almost anything you want concerning this issue.

However, you asked the question without also asking what any one particular church or one particular poster here on the forums thinks about the matter, so referring you to the answer that is the norm among Christian churches seemed the only good way to respond.

I'm pretty familiar with the 'norm', having been through Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non Denom. Churches etc.
My questions are more to provoke thought rather than come up with dogmatic answers.
I know how I would answer my question, "'Does writing hymns involve assuming authority over a man?'"

I would say 'no', providing a male has filtered through it. I trust male pastors would not put a bad hymn before their congregation, just as they would filter bad teaching (as hymns contain teachings.)

 

[Albion]

I'm pretty familiar with the 'norm', having been through Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non Denom. Churches etc.
My questions are more to provoke thought rather than come up with dogmatic answers.

Ah, then I will bear that in mind. Thanks.

You know, it's sometimes tricky to know what is motivating one of the newer posters. Is he actually seeking answers about matters he doesn't understand? Is he instead setting the rest of us up for some sort of putdown? Or maybe he thinks of himself as the spokesman for some unusual religious cause that he's planning to slowly roll out. There can be a lot of possibilities, but the reader is reluctant to reply "Just exactly why do you want to know, anyhow?" .

I know how I would answer my question, "'Does writing hymns involve assuming authority over a man?'"

I would say 'no', providing a male has filtered through it. I trust male pastors would not put a hymn before their congregation, just as they would filter bad teaching (as hymns contain teachings.)

 

[prism]

There can be a lot of possibilities, but the reader is reluctant to reply "Just exactly why do you want to know, anyhow?" .

I had a Lutheran pastor who would counter most knotty questions with the counter question, "Why do you want to know?" ¿¿⁇ ...ouch

 

[Lamb]

I had a Lutheran pastor who would counter most knotty questions with the counter question, "Why do you want to know?" ¿¿⁇ ...ouch

There's a very good reason for asking such a question and here's why. Lutherans believe in the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. If your question dealt with you fearing about something, then it would be proper for the pastor to veer the conversation toward the Gospel to give you reassurance. But if your question was about you insisting something wasn't sinful (even though the bible said it was), then the pastor would preach the Law to you in all its severity.

 

[prism]

There's a very good reason for asking such a question and here's why. Lutherans believe in the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. If your question dealt with you fearing about something, then it would be proper for the pastor to veer the conversation toward the Gospel to give you reassurance. But if your question was about you insisting something wasn't sinful (even though the bible said it was), then the pastor would preach the Law to you in all its severity.

... except he was highly sacramental and would pass off CFW Walther with his 'Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel' to the Reformed along with Luther's 'Bondage of the Will'. I had read Wather's book several times and benefitted much from his insights and do have a good grasp on the topic.
(sorry for not responding earlier, but I just now seen your response).

 

[Lamb]

... except he was highly sacramental and would pass off CFW Walther with his 'Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel' to the Reformed along with Luther's 'Bondage of the Will'. I had read Wather's book several times and benefitted much from his insights and do have a good grasp on the topic.
(sorry for not responding earlier, but I just now seen your response).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with sharing the insights of Walther and Luther with others.

 

[prism]

On this topic I have seen debates on whether any man or woman should write hymns or should we stick to the inspired poetry of the Bible e.g. the Psalms?

 

[Albion]

What's the argument against new hymns that recount the teachings of the Bible?

And that's nothing against the Psalms, but if sticking with them exclusively is the right thing to do, why do we allow anything to be done in a Christian worship service that wasn't done by the Old Testament Hebrews?