(No Debate) What things would make you leave your church?

ImaginaryDay2

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I've left a couple. One was a Pentecostal church that was steeped in 'Modalism' (One God - three "modes" of operation. Essentially denying the Trinity). There were other doctrinal issues that were just way off base. The second was the MB (Mennonite Brethren) church. I'd begun to study a bit about baptism, communion, and how God used those ordinances. I came to conclusions that were different than doctrines held by the MB and most Evangelical churches. Eventually those conclusions led me to the Lutheran church.
 

Lämmchen

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I've left a couple. One was a Pentecostal church that was steeped in 'Modalism' (One God - three "modes" of operation. Essentially denying the Trinity). There were other doctrinal issues that were just way off base. The second was the MB (Mennonite Brethren) church. I'd begun to study a bit about baptism, communion, and how God used those ordinances. I came to conclusions that were different than doctrines held by the MB and most Evangelical churches. Eventually those conclusions led me to the Lutheran church.

What would make you want to leave the Lutheran church?
 

Wilhemena

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I would consider leaving if not taking a break from my church if drama began to consume the membership, dividing the friendships I have formed through the years and creating an environment that is no longer mentally healthy for me to be a part. That type of situation will wreck a congregation filling it will gossip and useless quarrels and I remind those friends of mine, is it really worth it what you believe you are fighting for in order to divide the way you are doing? The truly humble will bow down before God almighty and make amends which is a divine act to behold seeing God at work among the friends I hold dear to my heart. Praise Him, He makes us see that our hearts are stubborn but He is merciful and loving.
 

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I would consider leaving if not taking a break from my church if drama began to consume the membership, dividing the friendships I have formed through the years and creating an environment that is no longer mentally healthy for me to be a part. That type of situation will wreck a congregation filling it will gossip and useless quarrels and I remind those friends of mine, is it really worth it what you believe you are fighting for in order to divide the way you are doing? The truly humble will bow down before God almighty and make amends which is a divine act to behold seeing God at work among the friends I hold dear to my heart. Praise Him, He makes us see that our hearts are stubborn but He is merciful and loving.

This is true...these things can divide a church. People get mad if the carpet color gets changed! Hopefully a good pastor can get them to reconcile before it tears their world apart.
 

Confessional Lutheran

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Things that would make me leave my beloved Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod are the same things that led to my departure from the other two denominations that I was affiliated with in my lifetime. #1: Apostacy from the Biblical base of doctrine, #2: Caring more about the financial contributions of communicant members more than the state of their souls before God, #3: Elitism, or an unwelcoming attitude to inquirers or guests, #4: Submitting to worldly rather than godly standards.
 

Cassia

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False teaching is definitely the main thing that would make me want to leave. I'm not sure that at this point feeling welcome is crucial although it's nice that I have friends there who care about me.

If you had a choice between 2 similar churches and one had a longer church service by about a half hour than the other, would you go to the one with the shorter service? Would you leave the church that had a longer service?
If the extra half hour was a non-stand-up-sit-down worship service which had true to scripture songs that would set president for me. False teaching of course is a deal breaker and the sheep making room is the well of plenty. I would also rate getting along with the pastor as a priority also as that can have significant effect of being comfortable in a church setting.
 

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Are there things that would give you reason to leave your church? Or things that have already caused you to leave one?

For me, that question means "What things would make me leave the Body of Christ?" And the answer to that of course no worldly thing ever...

And IF the particular congregation in which I worship were to do bad things or teach false doctrines, I would lay down my life for its correction... Were it to be, say, taken over by a bunch of Satanists who were conducting Satanic services in it, I would burn the building to the ground...

With the Church understood as the Hospital for Sinners, things can get pretty tough in the struggle to prove the Faith of Christ in our own bodies...

However, most struggles are hidden in Christ...

And that struggle only comes to light in Confession...

Arsenios
 

RichWh1

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I think what the author means is what would make you leave your local congregation ? Not the Body of Christ.
We could not leave the Body of Christ if we wanted.

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ImaginaryDay2

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What would make you want to leave the Lutheran church?

I'm not really sure. The only thing might be if I were somewhere that there wasn't a church available. In parts of BC that might be a reality. If work or something else precipitates a move I might have to consider that, but I don't think my beliefs would change much. I'd probably look for a conservative Anglican church in that case. Barring that, I may visit a local Catholic parish, but I don't think I'd join/convert.
 

tango

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I think you might have been in a Pentecostal church and the reasoning behind this is call those things that arent as though they are , joined with faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. The rick to this is that it has to be Gods will for that person or no amount of saying it is so will get you anywhere.

Their reasoning was to wrench Job 22:28 out of context and stand on the promise that God never made. I think two words that summed up much of what that church was about would be "cognitive dissonance".

As you say if it isn't God's will then we can declare whatever we want and it does nothing.
 

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For me, that question means "What things would make me leave the Body of Christ?" And the answer to that of course no worldly thing ever...

And IF the particular congregation in which I worship were to do bad things or teach false doctrines, I would lay down my life for its correction... Were it to be, say, taken over by a bunch of Satanists who were conducting Satanic services in it, I would burn the building to the ground...

With the Church understood as the Hospital for Sinners, things can get pretty tough in the struggle to prove the Faith of Christ in our own bodies...

However, most struggles are hidden in Christ...

And that struggle only comes to light in Confession...

Arsenios

You would make sure the people were out of there before you burned it?
 

Cassia

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Their reasoning was to wrench Job 22:28 out of context and stand on the promise that God never made. I think two words that summed up much of what that church was about would be "cognitive dissonance".

As you say if it isn't God's will then we can declare whatever we want and it does nothing.

I think that’s called dynamic transcendency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_and_formal_equivalence

Formal equivalence is often more goal than reality, if only because one language may contain a word for a concept which has no direct equivalent in another language. In such cases, a more dynamic translation may be used or a neologism may be created in the target language to represent the concept (sometimes by borrowing a word from the source language). etc ... sounds sketchy to me
 
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tango

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I think that’s called dynamic transcendency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_and_formal_equivalence

Formal equivalence is often more goal than reality, if only because one language may contain a word for a concept which has no direct equivalent in another language. In such cases, a more dynamic translation may be used or a neologism may be created in the target language to represent the concept (sometimes by borrowing a word from the source language). etc ... sounds sketchy to me

With this particular verse the problem is the context. God never spoke those words at all - they were spoken to Job by his "friend" Eliphaz and in Job 42:7 God makes it very clear he is displeased with Eliphaz. So to stand on the verse as if it were a promise made by God is doubly absurd - firstly the promise wasn't made to us and secondly God not only didn't make it but reprimanded the one who did.

Cognitive dissonance relates to holding conflicting thoughts at the same time without seeing any conflict. Like, for example, the person at the church I left who boldly declared he was healed (present tense) but still went to see his doctor regularly thereby demonstrating he was not healed. I don't visit a heart specialist because I don't have anything wrong with my heart. If I had something wrong with my heart I'd be seeing a heart specialist. To claim my heart is just fine while seeing a specialist who mends hearts is absurd.
 

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i dont attend church currently but if they said something like "if you listen to non-Christian music or watch R rated movies you arent really a true Christian" I would be so gone..thats one of my pet peeves I guess.
 

Cassia

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With this particular verse the problem is the context. God never spoke those words at all - they were spoken to Job by his "friend" Eliphaz and in Job 42:7 God makes it very clear he is displeased with Eliphaz. So to stand on the verse as if it were a promise made by God is doubly absurd - firstly the promise wasn't made to us and secondly God not only didn't make it but reprimanded the one who did.

Cognitive dissonance relates to holding conflicting thoughts at the same time without seeing any conflict. Like, for example, the person at the church I left who boldly declared he was healed (present tense) but still went to see his doctor regularly thereby demonstrating he was not healed. I don't visit a heart specialist because I don't have anything wrong with my heart. If I had something wrong with my heart I'd be seeing a heart specialist. To claim my heart is just fine while seeing a specialist who mends hearts is absurd.
Jobs friends portrayed different sets of legalistic thinking and like parts of Psalms include scripture portraying the law but also words of grace that has both mankind's thoughts and God's thoughts that need to be separated one from the other, bone and marrow type of thing. I think that cognitive dissonance as you have described in the above post is, in fact, holding law and grace 's conflicting thoughts w/o seeing any conflict. It sounds circular reasoning and generally is.
 

Cassia

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Jus to add a bit more info...
Excerpt from dynamic Transcendency ~ Paul D. Hanson ~ the correlation of confessional heritage and contemporary experience in a biblical model of divine activity.
The religiosity expressed by Job’s ‘friends ‘ in their efforts to bring him back into conformity with established teachings consisted of words drawn from the past and repeated without critical reflection or integration with contemporary life, words subservient to an ‘airtight’ theological system of retribution, words closed to any new human experience or encounter with the divine which challenged the Golden Age of Yore. Such is the inevitable fate of any religion which quarantines it’s ancient past as the only age within which revelation of divine nature or will occurred, and which lives in the present by means of repetition and imitation unaffected by the spirit of exploration or anticipation.
 

Tigger

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Jobs friends portrayed different sets of legalistic thinking and like parts of Psalms include scripture portraying the law but also words of grace that has both mankind's thoughts and God's thoughts that need to be separated one from the other, bone and marrow type of thing. I think that cognitive dissonance as you have described in the above post is, in fact, holding law and grace 's conflicting thoughts w/o seeing any conflict. It sounds circular reasoning and generally is.
Be careful. With this distinction between law and Gospel you're sounding more Lutheran everyday! :chairfall:
 

Cassia

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Be careful. With this distinction between law and Gospel you're sounding more Lutheran everyday! :chairfall:
Not everything biblically sound is Lutheran or (insert other religion here) The formulation for the model of dynamic transcendency is from detailed exegesis. The bible regarding revelation while acknowledging it's diversity brings confessional heritage into dialog with recent discoveries of theological developments. The challenge is to "encounter the living God within the tension between a Vision of the Kingdom and the realities of the age."
 
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