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Faith

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Okay, I’ve been studying a lot about the Protestantism and Catholicism to see if I’m in the right place. I was leaning toward going back to Catholicism but today I went to both services; Catholic and my LCMS Church, after having a nice visit with a priest this week.

After going to both services today I’ve decided I like the LCMS best. But here’s my problem. Catholics on the forums as well as the priest I spoke with say that Catholicism is the “truth”.
i need some words of wisdom from the LCMS posters here, including @Josiah.
 

Josiah

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Okay, I’ve been studying a lot about the Protestantism and Catholicism to see if I’m in the right place. I was leaning toward going back to Catholicism but today I went to both services; Catholic and my LCMS Church, after having a nice visit with a priest this week.

After going to both services today I’ve decided I like the LCMS best. But here’s my problem. Catholics on the forums as well as the priest I spoke with say that Catholicism is the “truth”.
i need some words of wisdom from the LCMS posters here, including @Josiah.

Well, I'd be disappointed by a Catholic priest who did NOT sincerely believe that Catholicism is the truth....

OBVIOUSLY, I crossed over to Lutheranism. And have shared why. Here's one such example: Reasons I Changed from Catholic to Lutheran


BUT that said, I have no animosity whatsoever about my years as a Catholic... indeed, I am very grateful for those years and roots. While I disagree with a FEW doctrines of that denomination, I nonetheless hold it in considerable esteem. I've made ZERO attempts to "convert" my family or encourage them to follow me into Lutheranism because I see no need for that. I consider Catholics to be my FULL, unseparated, equal brothers and sisters in Christ (just wrong about a FEW things, LOL) and I view the RCC as a perfectly valid denomination with valid clergy and sacraments (it's just not mutual, LOL).

I could add a number of things I cherish about Lutheranism.... why I feel passionately that this was the right move.... but that's not really your question.



Blessings!

Josiah (who is SICK today and missed - really missed - Bible Study and worship)



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Lamb

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I'm in the LCMS and we will definitely give you the good news about the Savior and feed you to strengthen your faith. You can be sure that God has you in the palm of His hand.
 

Faith

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Well, I'd be disappointed by a Catholic priest who did NOT sincerely believe that Catholicism is the truth....

OBVIOUSLY, I crossed over to Lutheranism. And have shared why. Here's one such example: Reasons I Changed from Catholic to Lutheran


BUT that said, I have no animosity whatsoever about my years as a Catholic... indeed, I am very grateful for those years and roots. While I disagree with a FEW doctrines of that denomination, I nonetheless hold it in considerable esteem. I've made ZERO attempts to "convert" my family or encourage them to follow me into Lutheranism because I see no need for that. I consider Catholics to be my FULL, unseparated, equal brothers and sisters in Christ (just wrong about a FEW things, LOL) and I view the RCC as a perfectly valid denomination with valid clergy and sacraments (it's just not mutual, LOL).

I could add a number of things I cherish about Lutheranism.... why I feel passionately that this was the right move.... but that's not really your question.



Blessings!

Josiah (who is SICK today and missed - really missed - Bible Study and worship)



.




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Sorry to hear that you’re sick. I hope it’s not Covid.
 

Faith

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Well, I'd be disappointed by a Catholic priest who did NOT sincerely believe that Catholicism is the truth....

OBVIOUSLY, I crossed over to Lutheranism. And have shared why. Here's one such example: Reasons I Changed from Catholic to Lutheran


BUT that said, I have no animosity whatsoever about my years as a Catholic... indeed, I am very grateful for those years and roots. While I disagree with a FEW doctrines of that denomination, I nonetheless hold it in considerable esteem. I've made ZERO attempts to "convert" my family or encourage them to follow me into Lutheranism because I see no need for that. I consider Catholics to be my FULL, unseparated, equal brothers and sisters in Christ (just wrong about a FEW things, LOL) and I view the RCC as a perfectly valid denomination with valid clergy and sacraments (it's just not mutual, LOL).

I could add a number of things I cherish about Lutheranism.... why I feel passionately that this was the right move.... but that's not really your question.



Blessings!

Josiah (who is SICK today and missed - really missed - Bible Study and worship)



.




.
Ok priest aside, a lot of Catholics on various forums say that Catholicism is the truth, too. I see how huge it is, compared to other denominations and wonder if they know something I don’t. LOL.
Please tell me about what you cherish about Lutheranism (if you already did, tell me again when you’ve got the time).
 

atpollard

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As an outsider with no dog in the fight (I am a Particular Baptist, so we come from a different source than the debate between Martin Luther and the RCC about whether there was a need for a Reformation of the church) I offer this snippet to chew on:

The RCC believes that God has entrusted men (the Cardinals) and one man in particular (the Pope, Archbishop of Rome) the authority to add to “thus says the Lord” (the REQUIREMENTS, called Dogma) based on the Traditions of Men (like the past church Bishops) and new revelations to the current Pope.

The Lutheran Church, following the example and advice of Martin Luther, believes that tradition is great stuff to read, but only the 66 books in the current Bible contain the authority of “thus says the Lord”.

The discussion about which is the “true” or “real” Church is silly. Both trace their origins back to Jesus Christ and his Apostles and they were the same church for the first 1600 years (more or less). The issue is should people add things to what God has placed in writing as equally important. If you believe that God didn’t tell the Apostles everything that the Church needed to hear, then the RCC is probably right and we need to pray to God through Mary, the Queen of Heaven and perform all of the sacraments in order to be saved and we will burn off our last few sins in purgatory. If you believe that God did tell the Apostles everything that the Church needed to hear, then the LCMS is probably right and we need to do what the Bible says and trust in the promises that the Bible contains.

So what does your heart say?
Is the Bible enough, or does God need to keep adding new rules through the Bishop of Rome?

(just FYI: as a Baptist, we started with the Bible and threw all traditions out the window … we were the “radicals” of the 15th -18th Centuries. So you will probably be more comfortable with the RCC or LCMS.)
 

Faith

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As an outsider with no dog in the fight (I am a Particular Baptist, so we come from a different source than the debate between Martin Luther and the RCC about whether there was a need for a Reformation of the church) I offer this snippet to chew on:

The RCC believes that God has entrusted men (the Cardinals) and one man in particular (the Pope, Archbishop of Rome) the authority to add to “thus says the Lord” (the REQUIREMENTS, called Dogma) based on the Traditions of Men (like the past church Bishops) and new revelations to the current Pope.

The Lutheran Church, following the example and advice of Martin Luther, believes that tradition is great stuff to read, but only the 66 books in the current Bible contain the authority of “thus says the Lord”.

The discussion about which is the “true” or “real” Church is silly. Both trace their origins back to Jesus Christ and his Apostles and they were the same church for the first 1600 years (more or less). The issue is should people add things to what God has placed in writing as equally important. If you believe that God didn’t tell the Apostles everything that the Church needed to hear, then the RCC is probably right and we need to pray to God through Mary, the Queen of Heaven and perform all of the sacraments in order to be saved and we will burn off our last few sins in purgatory. If you believe that God did tell the Apostles everything that the Church needed to hear, then the LCMS is probably right and we need to do what the Bible says and trust in the promises that the Bible contains.

So what does your heart say?
Is the Bible enough, or does God need to keep adding new rules through the Bishop of Rome?

(just FYI: as a Baptist, we started with the Bible and threw all traditions out the window … we were the “radicals” of the 15th -18th Centuries. So you will probably be more comfortable with the RCC or LCMS.)
I think Jesus probably told us all we need to know, but then….which Bible is correct? Protestant or Catholic?
My husband grew up Baptist but now only goes to church with me atChristmas and Easter.
 

Josiah

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Ok priest aside, a lot of Catholics on various forums say that Catholicism is the truth, too. I see how huge it is, compared to other denominations and wonder if they know something I don’t. LOL.


I think many in ALL denominations, sects and cults believe that there's is right. Just don't shock me too much. IF we were to follow all those who say "I'm right" we'd be going in a lot of directions.



Please tell me about what you cherish about Lutheranism (if you already did, tell me again when you’ve got the time).


Here's a quick list, off the top of my head, in no particular order. Perhaps the other LCMS folks could chime in (in a thread about that)....


1. Humility.... mystery.... respect.

In Lutheranism, there is a deep respect for what God says and a cooresponding humility in what we theorize. Great attention is given to what God said (the very, verbatim words as opposed to some where it's "what I think God meant to say, what I think God means"). And a willingness to stop there. "God gets the last word" as my doctrine prof stressed. Lutherans are okay with tensions, paradoxy, mysteries..... okay with saying "I don't really understand this.... I don't know how this cranks out." Catholicism is very much influenced by Plato, Aristotle, Alchemy, various philosophies... Lutherans are not opposed to philosophy per se but don't form dogma out of such and handle it carefully; Lutherans sometimes "blame" medieval Catholic Scholasticism with much of the reason for the needed reforms, scholasticism being an attempt to merge theology with philosophy. Zwingli (Evangelicalism) and Reformed (post Calvin Calvinism) are both heavily influence by human reason, logic and medieval science with their emphasis on what "cannot be true" and formation of purely logical constructs ("Since A is true and B is true therefore C must be true" Even though the Bible flat out says it's not)



2 Lutheranism is very CHRIST-Centered, very GOSPEL centered.

To me, this was THE most striking thing I noted about Lutheranism when I first began to visit, as a former Catholic. Christ is everywhere! All over the worship service, the hymns, the liturgy, and especially the sermon. Not self. Not the denomination. THE key, central doctrine - Luther insisted - is Justification (what many Protestants mean by "Salvation"), Christ, the Cross, the Resurrection. The emphasis (almost obsession!!!) is on Christ as THE Savior. These two points are combined in a great summery of Lutheranism known as "The Theology of the Cross"


3 Reform - not Revolt, Tradition - not Reconstruction.

The Lutheran Reformation was a conservative one. While the polemics became increasingly horrible (on all sides) as the Reformation developed, Luther respected Christianity, he held the Early Church Fathers in high esteem, he honored and submitted to the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the ancient Ecumenical Creeds.... he was a student of Christian history and stated he would gladly submit all he believed to an Ecumenical Council (although he knew such a Council was sadly impossible). Luther saw a few things that needed REFORM or correction (many of which most Catholics ALSO thought needed correction). But he had no desire to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater, to throw away 1500 years of faith, to reinvent the wheel. What NEEDED correction (to bring back in line with Scripture and faith) should be.... what MORAL sins needed to be corrected (read about the popes of that day?) should be. But MUCH of what was believed was true and good and sound.... and much of what was practiced was good. Much the same could be said of the Anglican (English) Reformation, although less so. And to some degree of Calvin's thought much less so. These are sometimes called the "Conservative" or "First Wave" or "Magisterial" REFORMATION But then came Zwingli and the Anabaptists movements - they were rebellions, revolutions, reinventions, repudiations of 1500 years of Christianity (although in truth they kept a lot more than they cared to admit). As I read Scripture (including my name sake in the OT), I see that REFORM is often needed as error and corruption can creep into the community of faith, but I reject the radical movements such as Zwinglis, the Anabaptists and the various Reconstructionists movements (LDS, etc., etc.) Lutherans kept was is good.... reformed what needed to be.... and only tossed out what was clearly unbiblical or undermined the Gospel.


4. An Embrace of Community and Accountability.

While the very adjective "catholic" means "all of us" "universal" "whole" it seems to ME that The Roman Catholic Church is very, very much all wrapped up in itself. Catholic this, Catholic that.... in my Catholic days, I noted how some in that church can't seem to say a full sentence about their faith without mentioning their individual denomination. Lutherans (in typical Protestant fashion) hold that ALL CHRISTIANS are the church, ALL Christians are the people of God, ALL Christians are the children of God. Jesus is the Lord of His Church (He never retired or handed over His job to some dude). It's not about Lutherans, it's about JESUS. We embrace one, holy, catholic church - the community of believers. We have nothing at all against Christians assembling at a given place and time (congregations) - indeed, that's very biblical. And we have nothing against the tradition of congregations cooperating with others in denominations - and perhaps submitting to the accountability of such (accountability is regarded as essential). Lutherans are not so comfortable with "I think, I feel, I did" and more comfortable with "Christianity believes, WE think." It's more "Jesus and WE than Jesus and ME" (pardon the grammar) when it comes to doctrine. Lutherans study church history, the Fathers, the Councils....

Luther passionately rejected that ANY person (save Jesus!), ANY congregation, ANY denomination can simply declare himself/itself to be infallible, unaccountable, the "Mouth of God" or even equate self with Jesus Himself (Indeed, many believe Luther was excommunicated because he held to that). The Lutheran Principle of Sola Scriptura which says that what a person/congregation'/denomination says as dogma is ACCOUNTABLE to the verbatim words of God in Scripture - he/it is not equal to such or above such or simply unaccountable if self says that self can't be wrong. This too was a major reason for Luther's excommunication, the Catholic Church was very angered by that principle. This applies to tradition, as well - which is UNDER Scripture, not ABOVE it.

Part of this accountability and community, as well as "let Scripture have the last word" is the "Law/Gospel" distictive. In doctrine and issues of morality, the Bible MAY seem to differ - even contradict at times - but what we have is different CONTEXT. Sometimes, we have LAW (God's will, God's justice) and sometimes we have GOSPEL (God's heart, God's grace and mercy). The context and application is critical. This hermaneutical principle is important in Lutheranism (you can see it here at CH in discussions of "Once Saved, Always Saved" and Justification, etc.).


5. Simple.

Rick Steeves (he has all those European travel programs and books) says he's a Lutheran because "they believe in traveling light." He used the analogy of how he packs for a trip - with what's needed, and said his faith is like that. While Lutheranism is not simplistic, there is a emphasis on key things. Luther's Small Catechism is perhaps 10 pages long (and half that isn't doctrine), my Catholic Catechism is 800 pages long. Tells you something. Now, there's a RICH mine of gold in Lutheran theology but we still pack light. Lutherans themselves are sometimes surprised to hear their pastor say, "Well actually Lutheranism is silent on that" (but he may well go on to share HIS fallible, non-binding opinion, lol).



This video is helpful....









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atpollard

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I think Jesus probably told us all we need to know, but then….which Bible is correct? Protestant or Catholic?
My husband grew up Baptist but now only goes to church with me atChristmas and Easter.
The Protestant, of course. ;). [just kidding]

66 of the books are identical.
Depending on the Catholic Bible that you have, it may or may not include some books added to the OT or written between the OT and NT period that are useful and interesting but may not be 100% God Breathed.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!
So Catholic or Protestant Bible, Jesus said what Jesus said and the Apostles wrote what the Apostles wrote. The ”best” translation of the Bible is the one that you will read and can understand. The book does little good sitting on a shelf or coffee table.

Growing up something (anything) means almost nothing. The world is full of people that grew up (insert any denomination) and do not attend church. I grew up attending church exactly 22 times … every Easter and Christmas from birth to 11 years old … and was raised a radical ATHEIST. So it is all about meeting Jesus and not about going to a church as a child.
 

Faith

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The Protestant, of course. ;). [just kidding]

66 of the books are identical.
Depending on the Catholic Bible that you have, it may or may not include some books added to the OT or written between the OT and NT period that are useful and interesting but may not be 100% God Breathed.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!
So Catholic or Protestant Bible, Jesus said what Jesus said and the Apostles wrote what the Apostles wrote. The ”best” translation of the Bible is the one that you will read and can understand. The book does little good sitting on a shelf or coffee table.

Growing up something (anything) means almost nothing. The world is full of people that grew up (insert any denomination) and do not attend church. I grew up attending church exactly 22 times … every Easter and Christmas from birth to 11 years old … and was raised a radical ATHEIST. So it is all about meeting Jesus and not about going to a church as a child.
I have several Bibles,mostly Catholic ones that have the extra books.
 

Josiah

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I have several Bibles,mostly Catholic ones that have the extra books.

Unlike other Protestants, Lutherans and Anglicans welcome those 7 extra books. Indeed, in all my Catholic years, I NEVER heard anything about them - only that Luther "ripped them out" (actually, Luther had one MORE book in his Bible than Catholics now do). NO sermons. NO studies. Nothing. It was after I became Lutheran that I experienced a long study of them in our Pastor's Sunday Study, only AFTER I became Lutheran that I was encouraged to read them.

That aside, ask your Catholic friends what teaching, what dogma is found in those 7 books (perhaps none of which they can even name and likely none have they read). They might say Purgatory - but ask them to read where those 7 books teach that and bingo, nope, it's not there - the RCC IMPUTES its belief INTO a verse, a verse that the Orthodox Church also has in its Bible but rejects the unique, RCC dogma of purgatory.

Lutherans are not going to rebuke you for bringing a Bible that has one LESS book in it than Luther's. You may even find something there you'll never find in a Catholic Church - a class to read and study those books. One such Lutheran Study, published by the LCMS' own publishing house, is: Study Guide to the Apocrypha.



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atpollard

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Unlike other Protestants, Lutherans and Anglicans welcome those 7 extra books. Indeed, in all my Catholic years, I NEVER heard anything about them - only that Luther "ripped them out" (actually, Luther had one MORE book in his Bible than Catholics now do). NO sermons. NO studies. Nothing. It was after I became Lutheran that I experienced a long study of them in our Pastor's Sunday Study, only AFTER I became Lutheran that I was encouraged to read them.

That aside, ask your Catholic friends what teaching, what dogma is found in those 7 books (perhaps none of which they can even name and likely none have they read). They might say Purgatory - but ask them to read where those 7 books teach that and bingo, nope, it's not there - the RCC IMPUTES its belief INTO a verse, a verse that the Orthodox Church also has in its Bible but rejects the unique, RCC dogma of purgatory.

Lutherans are not going to rebuke you for bringing a Bible that has one LESS book in it than Luther's. You may even find something there you'll never find in a Catholic Church - a class to read and study those books. One such Lutheran Study, published by the LCMS' own publishing house, is: Study Guide to the Apocrypha.



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…and THIS is why you don’t want to be taking advice on this from a Baptist. ;)
[If you like them and want to read them, attend a church that does read them, not a Baptist church that won’t] :)
 

Lanman87

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Catholics on the forums as well as the priest I spoke with say that Catholicism is the “truth”.
Everyone thinks that their denomination/tradition is the "truth". If they didn't then they wouldn't be part of that denomination/tradition.
 

Fritz Kobus

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Everyone thinks that their denomination/tradition is the "truth". If they didn't then they wouldn't be part of that denomination/tradition.
I found that my beliefs do not fit any denomination. I agree with Lutherans on some things, Anabaptist on other things, The Orthodox on some things. But do not find any denomination that I can agree with on end times teachings since I am a partial preterist.
 

Lanman87

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But do not find any denomination that I can agree with on end times teachings since I am a partial preterist.
There are a lot of things that I'm not dogmatic about. It is okay to acknowledge that we, as humans, have a finite understanding of God and how He works. It is also okay to acknowledge that Theologians, through the years, have came up with different understandings of God and different interpretations of Scripture (and tradition). I'm fine with that, no person is perfect and each of us have our biases, assumptions, cultural norms, culture challenges, religious culture and religious traditions. That was true of Iraneaus, Augustine, Jerome, Gregory the Great, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, D.L. Moody, Billy Graham, R.C. Sproul, the Catholic Priest of your local parish, the Pastor of the huge Baptist Church downtown, and the Pastor of the strip mall church next to the Mexican place with the good burritos.

Saying that all Christians have to agree on everything or they aren't a Christian is like saying all Americans have to agree about everything or they aren't an American.
 

Fritz Kobus

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Saying that all Christians have to agree on everything or they aren't a Christian is like saying all Americans have to agree about everything or they aren't an American.
I think many Christians are open to their brethren in other denominations, but some churches teach that one must not pray with a person who does not hold completely to the same teachings.
 

Albion

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I found that my beliefs do not fit any denomination.
FWIW, I doubt that this ^ is correct to say.
I agree with Lutherans on some things, Anabaptist on other things, The Orthodox on some things. But do not find any denomination that I can agree with on end times teachings since I am a partial preterist.
There are denominations which leave options open to the individual member concerning non-essential doctrines/teachings.

It would be interesting to know what areas of agreement and/or disagreement you have with the Lutherans, Anabaptists, Orthodox, and others, but my point is just that there are many people who feel their beliefs don't "agree with" any denomination when, in reality, some or all of what they have in mind isn't actually defined and expected of each member in all those churches.
 

Faith

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Everyone thinks that their denomination/tradition is the "truth". If they didn't then they wouldn't be part of that denomination/tradition.
True, but the truth is somewhere……right?
 

Castle Church

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True, but the truth is somewhere……right?
They all hold the Truth - the Truth that Jesus died for our sins. Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.

The "Truth" is that every denomination is going to get one thing or another wrong. I believe that God is gracious enough to understand that we are all doing the best we can with the tools we are given. Any denomination claiming to have it all right is just silly. We won't be able to fully sort this out until either we die of Jesus returns.

Let me relay a joke I heard once, I think it fits here.

"There once was a man that died and went to Heaven. St. Peter was there and started leading him around to show him everything.
'Over there are the Baptists, over there are the Methodist, on that side are the Lutherans'
The man asked "but what is behind that wall?"
"Oh, that is where the Catholics are, they think they are the only ones here" Said St. Peter.

Now, you could sub "Catholics" for any denomination that claims to be the only "Truth".
 

Albion

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True, but the truth is somewhere……right?
Right. And we are expected to seek it.

But the issue isn't that simple--not just which church is right and the others wrong.

And, with respect, it's not sufficient to say that "Christ died for our sins, so us believing in him is the key to eternal life, and that's it period." (Or something similar to that.)

We need to keep two things in mind;

1) which are the teachings/doctrines that are essential to our standing with God, and which are teachings that are characteristic of some denomination or other but which do not rise to the level of an essential doctrine? For example, The Faith vs. Works dispute that is often debated is a biggie, but whether Baptism should be by immersion, triple immersion, or pouring the water actually is not.

And then...

2) If you cannot decide, you aren't therefore at liberty to avoid involvement with all the Christian churches, saying that it's impossible to know who's right, so you'll just read your Bible by yourself and that's all. Doing that disregards the substantial admonitions in the New Testament about believers fellowshipping with each other, resolving disputes through the Church, receiving the sacraments, participating in corporate worship, and more.
 
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