New Calvinist Bible

[Albion]

Now you have THREE witness from Reformed sources attempting to explain the difference. Make of their testimony whatever you will.

The last of the three is (as I get it) taken from the one church body that is considered to be a Hyper-Calvinist church, so I'd probably favor that one, if it matters.

 

[Albion]

Ah. So that's what we called the black socks churches. Not allowed to do anything on Sunday. 10 percent from the church takes the communion. The rest is not surely elected, saved or good enough and until their death they are not sure if they are saved.

Most churches or denominations that hold to hyper-Calvinistic theology are marked by fatalism, coldness, and a lack of assurance of faith. There is little emphasis upon God’s love for the lost and His own people but rather an unbiblical preoccupation with God’s sovereignty,

Maybe we should focus on the 'no evangelizing' characteristic. Most of the rest of this is what a lot of other Christians think describes the Reformed churches in general!

 

[Josiah]

Just to set the record straight …

The position that you list as “Calvinism” is a heretical position called “HyerCalvinism” and is held by very few.
The Westminster Confession of Faith describes the official Calvinist position as follows (critical portions for this discussion are underlined):

Of God’s Eternal Decree​

1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

My point is that the actual Calvinist and Lutheran positions on THIS are identical. God chose the saved … God did not predestine the damned (“passed over” is the WCF term). Like Romans 1:18-31 … God gave them over to their desires. The damned got what they wanted (followed by the Justice they deserved). The saved got what God wanted (a new heart) followed by the Mercy we did not deserve.

@atpollard

You are probably correct about modern Reformed theology.

The following is long (maybe too long for you to read) but perhaps reveals where I'm coming from...


Note: I married into a Reformed family (lol)... my wife comes from a very conservative Reformed background (Orthodox Presbyterian Church, if you are aware of this tiny group). She has Scottish Presbyterian roots going back to the Reformation. Her parents are very active in their parish. When my beloved and I were dating and engaged... and working on where we'd BOTH join (because we were committed to going to the same church and raising our kids there), I had lots of discussions with her, her parents and family, and on one occasion, with her pastor.

And here is MY "take"... the conclusion I came to (and express here):

1.. Calvin HIMSELF was pretty close to Luther and Lutheranism, although he emphasized different things. He and Luther were almost identical on justification (which both insisted is the key doctrine), and very close on the Sacraments. They differed on the Church (and Church/State issues) and Calvin had much less esteem for Tradition but they were close. Twin brothers (just not identical twins, LOL). BUT, after both, radicals arose. For Calvin, these radicals (you like to call them "hyper") took Calvinism and extended it (somewhat to make it "logical" and somewhat to just be the opposite of the hated radical Arminians) to move the Reformed Movement to TULIP and to a new, "hyper" form. Now, the Lutheran radicals were rejected and traditional Lutheranism survived (until the pietists and later liberals arose anyway) BUT in Calvinism, the radicals ("hyper") won the day. Calvinism became TULIP, not Calvin. And this is reflected in the Reformed confessions.

2. But early on, Reformed Christians began to reject this hyper re-creation, this "be the opposite of radical Arminianism even if just as unbiblical" TULIP understanding. BUT rather than simply rejecting the hyper thing, it all just re-interpreted. INTERESTING to me because I found the EXACT SAME THING often happens in Christianity! Rather than admitting "we were wrong" Christians like to say "what was and is MEANT by this is...." Catholicism does this a lot! Lutherans do it today with statements (even in our Confessions) about the Papacy. And according to my wife's family, Reformed do this with TULIP: Conservatives (Like the OPC) embrace this more than liberals (most Presbyterians), just like in Lutheranism conservatives (LCMS, WELS) stay closer to the Confessions than the majority (ELCA). My parents are close friends with a couple who lead the RCIA in their Catholic parish, and she leads the First Communion Classes. I've had quite a conversation with her about the Eucharist....and she out-right admitted to me that while Transubstantiation (as the Aristotelian, Alchemic understanding) IS 'officially" the position of the RCC but she insists, is "re-interpreted" (the word she used) in the past century. The WORD is still used but given a very different definition and understanding. She insists the ACTUAL view - the one actually conveyed in Catholic materials and in the First Communion Class, is actually much closer to the Orthodox view and pretty close to the Lutheran one. All it means, NOW, is that a CHANGE happens.... it's a mystical change, it's mystery, it has nothing to do with Transubstantiation. SO, I asked her, "why doesn't the Catholic Church simply say they've changed their mind" and she explained Christians never do that, they just "reinterpret" - same or similar language given a quite different twist (just like Lutherans do with the Papacy).

3. SO, today, conservative Reformed have all the Confessions.... but the original, actual view is "reinterpreted". Those who hold to the original view are called "hyper" and rejected. But rather than ADMIT "Hey, we now reject that and our view NOW is...." it's just given a "spin" that makes it quite different. I rejoice that much of Calvinism has returned to Calvin and now is very close to Lutheranism. My wife's OPC pastor was perfectly okay with her converting to the LCMS.... and I think I would have been confortable joining her OPC church if that's how our mutual search had worked out. I have lots of theological discussions with her family and while we're not the same, we understand and respect each other. BUT it sure seems to me, that's NOT the theology of TULIP.... it's a "reinterpretation". One I rejoice in. But my bias is this: I WISH Christians (including Lutherans) would be honest and admit: We were wrong; this is a much better view.


Blessings on your Easter season...



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[Josiah]

You are right, Messy.

Parts of the TULIP line-up are accepted by other Christians because parts of it are correct. However, there are quite a few Christians who, when questioned about it will say--half jokingly but still seriously--that they are 4 point Calvinists or 3 point Calvinists, etc.

@Albion , you are correct (as usual, LOL). Or as one Presbyterian at another website posted, "Truth is, most Reformed think that tulip is a pretty flower." And that's probably a good thing, in his view.

There ARE Reformed who embrace TULIP ("five pointers") - we've had a few Reformed here at CH who see all this in the original form. BUT nearly all "Five-Point" Reformed spin all this quite differently than originally meant - see my post above to atpollard. Others, IMO, are probably more honest and admittedly reject some of it (four or three pointers). As a Lutheran, I'm okay with all 5 points IF they are "spun" or "interpreted" in a certain (non-original) way but if we're being honest and truthful.... not skirting around, playing games and "reinterpreting," then I'm maybe a two pointer, LOL.


BTW, I understand that a LOT of Reformed are very unhappy that their confession is defined by TULIP. Like that Reformed poster quoted above. As I understand it, TULIP was a late invention (unknown to Calvin) invented simply as a COUNTER to similar opposite 5 points by radical, extremist Arminian/free will Christians. And as radical ('hyper') and unbiblical as those Arminianists were, will the radical ('hyper') Calvinists who just reversed those 5 points were also. The opposite of a wrong is not necessarily right. That, essentially, is the problem with TULIP. Interesting.... when I spoke (too briefly) with my beloved's Presbyterian pastor, he never mentioned TULIP... he started with monergism, STRESSING to me that here's where Reformed and Lutherans passionately start and stress and hold in common.


Blessings to you, my friend....


- Josiah


@atpollard the above might interest you...


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[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[atpollard]

TULIP, as an acronym, was invented in the 20th Century. It first appeared in an obscure sermon and was widely popularized in a book on Evangelism (I think it was in the 1930s).

The 5 truths expressed by the acronym go back to the Synod of Dort and the official response to the 5 articles of Remonstrances.

 

[brightfame52]

New Calvinist Bible

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who lovethe specific individuals who have been elected by God all things work together for good, for those specific individuals who are called according to his purpose. For those specific individuals whom he foreknewunconditionally elected he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many specific individual brothers. And those specific individuals whom he predestined he also called, and those specific individuals whom he called he also justified, and those specific individuals whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 10:9-21 if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be savedthis is evidence that you were arbitrarily and individually chosen for salvation. For with the heart an elect one believes and is justified, and with the mouth an elect one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Every elect one whowill believes in him and will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on himthe elect. For “every elect one whowill calls on the name of the Lord and will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good newsDon’t worry – if they are elect they will definitely be saved anyway and if they are not elect there is nothing anyone can do about it.” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearingprior and unconditional election of specific individuals and hearingthat election through the word of Christarbitrary decision of God. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my handsfolded my arms to a non-elect, disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:7-11, 23-24 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect (i.e. the individuals who have always been elect from eternity) obtained it, but the rest (i.e. the individuals who have always been non-elect from eternity) were hardened, as it is written, “God gave them (i.e. the non-elect from eternity) a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.” And David says, “Let their (i.e. the non-elect from eternity) table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.” So I ask, did they (i.e. the non-elect from eternity) stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Of course! They are non-elect from eternity and have been hardened, and no one can ever change from being non-elect to being elect. … And even they (i.e. the non-elect from eternity), if they do not will continue in their unbelief as they are non-elect from eternity and there is no way that someone who is non-elect can become elect, they will not be grafted in, for God has the power is not going to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, not be grafted back into their own olive tree, because they are non-elect from eternity and there is no way that someone who is non-elect can become elect.

Romans 8 – The Predestination Station

Posts about Romans 8 written by kingswoodhart

predestinationstation.wordpress.com

Scoffing Gods Sacred Truth, thats not good friend.

 

[Messy]

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[brightfame52]

TULIP, as an acronym, was invented in the 20th Century. It first appeared in an obscure sermon and was widely popularized in a book on Evangelism (I think it was in the 1930s).

The 5 truths expressed by the acronym go back to the Synod of Dort and the official response to the 5 articles of Remonstrances.

They go back even further, they are found in holy scripture, so they were invented by the Spirit of God

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[MoreCoffee]

I'd be happy with the CTS NCB. But a ESV Catholic Edition is fairly good and a lot of Protestants would accept it without taking out their own KJV or something similar to check that I am not cheating with a quotation.

But I know I do not want no Calvinist Bible nor no Anti-Calvinist Bible - especially if they have only 66 books! Yuck

 

[Albion]

But I know I do not want no Calvinist Bible nor no Anti-Calvinist Bible - especially if they have only 66 books! Yuck

There might be an edition that includes the Talmud in addition to the inspired word of God if more Jewish history and sheer volume are what's wanted. Including the books of the Apocrypha accomplishes the same thing.

 

[brightfame52]

This is translated from Dutch.

Digibron.nl, Tulip - Gereformeerd in vijf punten

Wij zijn gereformeerd. Maar wat betekent dat? Wat is gereformeerd? Daarop kun je heel verschillende antwoorden geven. Sommige mensen denken daarbij aan een bepaalde kledingstijl of een politieke partij. Anderen hebben een nare associatie met dit woord, omdat het hen herinnert aan de...

www.digibron.nl

Unconditional election
There is no condition in us by which we can propitiate God and become worthy of grace. On the contrary. God chooses people to salvation. We can never understand God in that! It is not the case that God chooses based on something in us, such as our faith. The doctrine of election is sometimes seen as a hard doctrine. You shouldn't talk about it. The Bible does, and so does Calvin.


This is not true. He said why He elected Paul. Because he did it in ignorance. He said why He rejected those that sinned against the Spirit. They were wicked and resisted Him. He didn't even want them to see.

Chosing to get saved and predestination is both true at the same time.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 2
Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.


13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [a]should heal them.’


Isaiah 65
I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
4 Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of [a]abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These [b]are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.
6 “Behold, it is written before Me:
I will not keep silence, but will repay—
Even repay into their bosom—
7 Your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together,”
Says the Lord,
“Who have burned incense on the mountains
And blasphemed Me on the hills;
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”
8 Thus says the Lord:

“As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.
11 “But you are those who forsake the Lord,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for [c]Gad,
And who furnish a drink offering for [d]Meni.
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.

If you dont believe in unconditional election by grace, you dont believe in Salvation by grace through faith. You must believe in salvation by your worth, something God seen in you that He didnt see in them that reject Him.

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

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[brightfame52]

Yes. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Good soil, not hardened by sin, can grow a plant from the seed from the Word. 1 Timothy pray for everyone, cause God wants everyone saved, but James says: don't pray for those who sin unto death.

I don't even know if election for everyone is true. Sounds like it, but it also sounds like the elect is simply the ones from Israel who believed, because non elect could become elect, according to Paul and the remnant is always those from Israel who get saved. Has nothing to do with gentile believers.
It may both be true. It's not clear to me.
Or Matthew 22, that's about Israel from Jesus' time, burned up their city, not many from them were chosen, but it was full of gentile believers:

And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them [a]spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, [b]take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”



Psalms 5, from the Westboro baptists: God hates the wicked. Evangelicals say: no bozo's God loves everyone. Well Jesus wasn't very friendly and loving to most of the pharisees, nor was God very loving to Pharao, who sinned against the Spirit and hardened his heart.

Sheep and goats, the sheep gave Him a drink. They were not randomly chosen and for the rest exactly the same.

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
Matthew 25:33‭-‬36

Romans 2
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


Genesis 3
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Satan has followers. The pharisees were called children from satan.

Matthew 13

Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’

Sometimes it sounds like the serpent seed doctrin, but not that crazy Branham literal stuff, but Cain for instance was from satan. Why? Free will? He could say no. God warned him. He was not interested in God. But since Adam and Eve sinned and became spiritually one with satan, they got Abel, the good one and Cain, who Jesus said was from Satan. He also said about Judas: one of you is a devil.
And: My sheep hear My voice.
Those He foreknew

Psalm 139

Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

Compared to:

I have never known you, go away from Me evildoers.

You just confirmed that you believe in salvation by your merit, thats pride !