MY Opinion of the Roman Catholic Church

[Josiah]

.


For YEARS, I have been accused of being "ANTI-Catholic" and of "bashing the RCC." And yet, in all these years, not one Catholic anywhere, at any website or otherwise, has been willing to say the same positive things about my denomination as I have repeatedly said about theirs: it might be that the proverbial shoe is on the other foot?


Here is my position. I've stated this - in these exact words - for about 10 years now at at least a dozen websites:

In my passionate opinion, The Catholic Church is a valid, sound and very highly esteemed institution. I regard it, its ministers, its ministries and its Sacraments as all valid, good and sound. I regard all the members to be fully Christian and fully and equally blessed, as well as my full, unseparated brothers and sisters in Christ and FULLY (and in every sense) members of the Church that is one, holy, catholic communion of saints. I regard none of the official teachings of The Catholic Church to be apostate or heretical in the sense of being unbiblical and indeed I greatly agree with it (my priest commenting on my embrace of Catholicism, "It's a whole lot better than most Catholics!"). And I pray daily for God's very richest blessings to it, its ministries and ministers and its Holy Father. Furthermore, I adore and appreciate the typical forms of Catholic worship, I often embrace Catholic piety/spirituality, and I hold in great esteem its ministries in education (k - 12 especially) and the ways it has often boldly stood up for Christian morality (especially life issues).


Now, It is true that I do not accept EVERY one of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the official Roman Catholic Catechism as dogma - although VERY rare are points I would solidly disagree with (I more often simply don't accept - while not denying; the Catechism insisting on too much, IMO) so I'm not in full, absolute agreement with all it's teachings - I disagree on EXACTLY the SAME issues that it parts with me, to exactly the same degree. I would still be a member of a parish owned and operated by the RC if I was in 100% absolute agreement; I would not be Lutheran if I was instead Catholic. But this reveals no distain for that denomination or my brothers and sisters there - only points where Catholics and Lutherans aren't exactly the same.


To date, no Catholic (not one) in about a decade in some dozen websites has been willing to return the positive things I state about they and their church to me and my church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod). I find that perhaps revealing.


I have frequently been asked WHY I moved over to Lutheranism, and I have (relunctantly) gave those reasons. But always with emphasis that I hold no hard feelings whatsoever about my Catholic "roots" and years as a Catholic. Quite the contrary..... I feel blessed by that and am very, very grateful for my time there. I don't agree that its new, unique, defining DOGMAS are dogmas (I don't claim they are all false, however)..... I don't agree with the ecclesiology or epistemology of that denomination..... and I think while its soterilogy MAY be okay, how it is typically expressed by Catholics (laity anyway) it conveys something troubling. But again, the RC denomination disagrees with my denomination on EXACTLY the same issues, to EXACTLY the same degree.... so if one is "anti" thus so is the other - equally. I would simply call that "not FULLY agreeing on all things to the same level/degree." I have also frequently been asked if I think that Catholics, generally, are heaven bound and I have consistently insisted I passionately believe so.




What about you?



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

I prefer not to say anything about your denomination because I know little about it and even if I did I would not presume to tell you what your denomination is, teaches, or practises. But it is evident that you do not share that view so you appear to be keen to tell me what I allegedly believe what the Catholic Church allegedly teaches, believes, and practises and you rarely fail to frame your comments in negative terms. So yes, many of your posts are anti-Catholic in content. I see no value in the anti-catholic content of your posts except in the very rare cases where you've made a valid critical point. On the whole your anti-catholic posts do not make valid points. Most of the time I do not reply to them in the hope (usually a vain hope) that you will tire of posting such things and come back to the topic of whatever thread you're posting in.

Now, since you ask for an opinion about Lutheranism and more precisely the kind of Lutheranism that your denomination professes I will offer this. Many Lutheran doctrines, practises, and teachings are good and consistent with holy scripture and the teaching of the Catholic Church while some are not. I see no special value on me commenting on those that are not consistent with holy scripture and the teaching of the Catholic Church. My purpose is not to discourage faith in others. I am more interested in strengthening the faith that they do profess wherever it is true and wholesome. I am also interested in probing the meaning of faith when it is professed. Hence my threads about such things as critical thinking and faith.

 

[Josiah]

I think I am typically careful about how things are posted since from MY perspective ( not the Catholic one) we are fully brothers in Christ. And I either note what the official Catholic Catechism states OR I make it clear this is what we were taught in Catholicism (often noting that what is TAUGHT in RCC parishes at times is NOT Catholic)... but when it's not corrected by clear official statements, often not even disagreed with - I usually take that as a concession and/or agreement.


It is possible, at forums like this, to dwell on what we are in AGREEMENT about. For reasons I won't theorize about, those rarely are popular threads (I have started some of those here at CH - most suffered an immediate death). Posters seem more interested in exploring the truthfulness/validity of Dogmas and practices that DIVIDE us - at times with the thought that truth matters and unity is good, and at times with a zealous need to parrot the stance of one's own denomination with an obvious disinterest in unity or truth. I've been doing this for 12 or 13 years now.... RARELY does truth or unity prevail, but for ME I do at times learn things, I do at times find challenges to my thinking or at least articulation of such - and that is of worth (even if that's all that happens).


But I will note that you too won't return the positive things I said about you and yours..... and your given reason. But that said, it might be .... revealing..... to note all things I wrote that you evaded returning. Or maybe not. And of course, I'm remembering that I long ago officially embraced you - as a Catholic - as "friend" but it wasn't returned. Not sure what importance to give that. Odd this "you ANTI" accusation.....


Anyway, I don't want this to turn negative. My hope is for mutual affirmations (even if they are obviously pretty one-sided). Catholics often feel picked on and hopefully we can put some balance or perspective on that..... I'm glad to lead the way there.



Others?



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think I am typically careful about how things are posted since from MY perspective ( not the Catholic one) we are fully brothers in Christ.

Catholic teaching is on Protestants is contained in "PASTORAL CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH IN THE MODERN WORLD - GAUDIUM ET SPES - PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 7, 1965"

90. An outstanding form of international activity on the part of Christians is found in the joint efforts which, both as individuals and in groups, they contribute to institutes already established or to be established for the encouragement of cooperation among nations. There are also various Catholic associations on an international level which can contribute in many ways to the building up of a peaceful and fraternal community of nations. These should be strengthened by augmenting in them the number of well qualified collaborators, by increasing needed resources, and by advantageously fortifying the coordination of their energies. For today both effective action and the need for dialogue demand joint projects. Moreover, such associations contribute much to the development of a universal outlook—something certainly appropriate for Catholics. They also help to form an awareness of genuine universal solidarity and responsibility.

Finally, it is very much to be desired that Catholics, in order to fulfill their role properly in the international community, will seek to cooperate actively and in a positive manner both with their separated brothers who together with them profess the Gospel of charity and with all men thirsting for true peace.

The council, considering the immensity of the hardships which still afflict the greater part of mankind today, regards it as most opportune that an organism of the universal Church be set up in order that both the justice and love of Christ toward the poor might be developed everywhere. The role of such an organism would be to stimulate the Catholic community to promote progress in needy regions and international social justice.​

The separated brothers referred to are Protestant Christians.

And I either note what the official Catholic Catechism states OR I make it clear this is what we were taught in Catholicism (often noting that what is TAUGHT in RCC parishes at times is NOT Catholic)... but when it's not corrected by clear official statements - I usually take that as a concession and/or agreement.

Rarely do you take the trouble to quote fully and without editorial comment what is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The bulk of your references and quotes from it are contained in editorial comment made by you and framed in negative terms. Hence your comments are usually anti-catholic in content. You protest that you are not but your own persistent practise makes the strongest case against your protest. Your constant references to "singular INDIVIDUAL ..." when referring to the Catholic Church cannot help but be seen as prejudicial. Your choice to type RCC whenever you wish to refer to the Catholic Church is a sign of the attitude made evident in your negative framing of any comments about the Catholic Church. I do not accept your protest as true to the content of your posts.

It is possible, at forums like this, to dwell on what we are in AGREEMENT about. For reasons I won't theorize about, those rarely are popular threads (I have started some of those here at CH - most suffered an immediate death). Posters seem more interested in exploring the truthfulness/validity of Dogmas and practices that DIVIDE us - at times with the thought that truth matters and unity is good, and at times with a zealous need to parrot the stance of one's own denomination with an obvious disinterest in unity or truth. I've been doing this for 12 or 13 years now.... RARELY does truth or unity prevail, but for ME I do at times learn things, I do at times find challenges to my thinking or at least articulation of such - and that is of worth (even if that's all that happens).


But I will note that you too won't return the positive things I said about you and yours..... and your given reason. But that said, it might be .... revealing..... to note all things I wrote that you evaded returning. Or maybe not. And of course, I'm remembering that I long ago officially embraced you - as a Catholic - as "friend" but it wasn't returned. Not sure what importance to give that.

Others?

- Josiah

 

[Rens]

.


For YEARS, I have been accused of being "ANTI-Catholic" and of "bashing the RCC." And yet, in all these years, not one Catholic anywhere, at any website or otherwise, has been willing to say the same positive things about my denomination as I have repeatedly said about theirs: it might be that the proverbial shoe is on the other foot?


Here is my position. I've stated this - in these exact words - for about 10 years now at at least a dozen websites:

In my passionate opinion, The Catholic Church is a valid, sound and very highly esteemed institution. I regard it, its ministers, its ministries and its Sacraments as all valid, good and sound. I regard all the members to be fully Christian and fully and equally blessed, as well as my full, unseparated brothers and sisters in Christ and FULLY (and in every sense) members of the Church that is one, holy, catholic communion of saints. I regard none of the official teachings of The Catholic Church to be apostate or heretical in the sense of being unbiblical and indeed I greatly agree with it (my priest commenting on my embrace of Catholicism, "It's a whole lot better than most Catholics!"). And I pray daily for God's very richest blessings to it, its ministries and ministers and its Holy Father. Furthermore, I adore and appreciate the typical forms of Catholic worship, I often embrace Catholic piety/spirituality, and I hold in great esteem its ministries in education (k - 12 especially) and the ways it has often boldly stood up for Christian morality (especially life issues).


Now, It is true that I do not accept EVERY one of the 2,865 points of the latest edition of the official Roman Catholic Catechism as dogma - although VERY rare are points I would solidly disagree with (I more often simply don't accept - while not denying; the Catechism insisting on too much, IMO) so I'm not in full, absolute agreement with all it's teachings - I disagree on EXACTLY the SAME issues that it parts with me, to exactly the same degree. I would still be a member of a parish owned and operated by the RC if I was in 100% absolute agreement; I would not be Lutheran if I was instead Catholic. But this reveals no distain for that denomination or my brothers and sisters there - only points where Catholics and Lutherans aren't exactly the same.


To date, no Catholic (not one) in about a decade in some dozen websites has been willing to return the positive things I state about they and their church to me and my church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod). I find that perhaps revealing.


I have frequently been asked WHY I moved over to Lutheranism, and I have (relunctantly) gave those reasons. But always with emphasis that I hold no hard feelings whatsoever about my Catholic "roots" and years as a Catholic. Quite the contrary..... I feel blessed by that and am very, very grateful for my time there. I don't agree that its new, unique, defining DOGMAS are dogmas (I don't claim they are all false, however)..... I don't agree with the ecclesiology or epistemology of that denomination..... and I think while its soterilogy MAY be okay, how it is typically expressed by Catholics (laity anyway) it conveys something troubling. But again, the RC denomination disagrees with my denomination on EXACTLY the same issues, to EXACTLY the same degree.... so if one is "anti" thus so is the other - equally. I would simply call that "not FULLY agreeing on all things to the same level/degree." I have also frequently been asked if I think that Catholics, generally, are heaven bound and I have consistently insisted I passionately believe so.




What about you?



- Josiah

That's great that you love the Catholic church.
See? MoreCoffee?
Now give each other a hug.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's great that you love the Catholic church.
See? MoreCoffee?
Now give each other a hug.

Let's see if the words become deeds before making a show of hugs and such

 

[Rens]

I like the charismatic church. I believe the charismatics are real christians. I also believe some of those pastors and teachings are quite dangerous. Yet if I want to warn them about it by showing them how evil it all is, somehow they ask the mods to remove the posts and do not really like me to say that. I learned that it's wiser to not push it in their throats and keep it neutral, not naming names.
And a lot I posted I'm not even sure it was accurate.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I like the charismatic church. I believe the charismatics are real christians. I also believe some of those pastors and teachings are quite dangerous. Yet if I want to warn them about it by showing them how evil it all is, somehow they ask the mods to remove the posts and do not really like me to say that. I learned that it's wiser to not push it in their throats and keep it neutral, not naming names.
And a lot I posted I'm not even sure it was accurate.

I am not a charismatic yet I see no special value in denigrating charismatics. But I will point to specific cases of abuse, such as some of the televangelists. That is fair I think.

 

[Josiah]

MoreCoffee,


Note


1. Your INSISTENCE on turning the OP upside down and into something "anti"....

2. Nothing you quoted "corrects" ANYTHING I posted in the OP. Or in any post I've ever posted - here or anywhere. Yup, it confirms that the RC does NOT embrace me as a full unseparated brother - and thus at that point, disagrees with my stance toward the Catholic Church and Catholics. I appreciate you taking the time to confirm that point where the "anti" is on your end, but that wasn't necessary.

3. Your odd persistence in arguing that the Catholic Church is one but the Catholic Church is many churches is just part of the apologetics of Catholicism that doesn't help and only muddies things. IMO, when the RCC speaks of it itself, it ALWAYS does so in the singular. To be specific in your example, it's called the Catechism of the Catholic Church - not The Catechism of the Many Catholic Churches. You like to STRESS the oneness, unity, singularity, individualness of your denomination ... but then you like to contradict yourself and go on about how The Catholic Church is actually a whole bunch of separate denominations. I wish you'd decide which it is. If you want all to not speak of the RCC as one - okay, but then you need to stop doing that. This constant evading, changing the subject is one of the things that make discussions hard. But I think it's worth the effort to TRY.

4. Again, my op stands even if you chose to not discuss it much and are trying to turn it into bashing. And you didn't return the positive things I said about you and your church (no Catholic ever has) - and that's okay (just interesting given your efforts even here to be anti non-Catholics). And nothing you've posted has addressed any of the issues raised.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, I am not attempting to "correct". I am disagreeing with your claims.

 

[Rens]

I am not a charismatic yet I see no special value in denigrating charismatics. But I will point to specific cases of abuse, such as some of the televangelists. That is fair I think.

Yes, there are some clear false teachers, but it was no use to warn people. Only my brother listened to me.
For the rest I just made a joke about it sometimes on christian chat, but they even thought that was offensive.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I am not attempting to "correct". I am disagreeing with your claims.

I know. Proving my point.

Well, my opinion of the RC as posted in the opening post remains. You haven't returned any of these many big positive things back; you won't say any of the positive things I've said about the Catholic Church and Catholics about me and my church. You are disagreeing. You even went to some things to quote the Catechism to note that the RCC does NOT consider me to be a full, unseperated brother - thus "disagreeing" (I'd simply say "not returning") with my opinion. And of course, the VAST majority I've posted here you've entirely evaded and ignored - just tried to make this negative toward non-Catholics and to prove that Catholicism does NOT view me and my church as I view you and your church. Okay. I knew that.



- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your post did not have a point, Josiah. It was only your opinion.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, there are some clear false teachers, but it was no use to warn people. Only my brother listened to me.
For the rest I just made a joke about it sometimes on christian chat, but they even thought that was offensive.

Amusing picture Rens

I am not very familiar with Joel Osteen's books and sermons yet the little I have seen and heard of his teaching convinces me that he makes a lot of money out of his religion.

 

[Ruth]

FYI I was baptized Catholic 59 years ago!!

 

[MoreCoffee]

FYI I was baptized Catholic 59 years ago!!

Excellent. Do you think of your baptism and what it means often?

 

[Josiah]

Your post did not have a point, Josiah. It was only your opinion.

Yes. And I noted that no Catholic - ever, anywhere - has returned the same positive things to me and my church as I say about Catholics and their church. You've chosen to confirm that - and that's okay.

I noted that while I consider Catholics to be my fully equal and unseparated brothers and sisters, it's not returned by Catholics and the RCC and (for some odd reason) you've chosen to confirm that - and that's okay, too.

And yes, Catholics tend to cast ME as the 'anti" one (and certainly not the other way around). You've suggested that's true, too.

Okay.



Thank you.


- Josiah

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah, your first post here glibly praises this and that aspect of Catholicism while at the same time your posts of the past and those yet to come speak ill and inaccurately of the Catholic Church and here you are asking me to praise your denomination or to praise you individually as "non-separated brother" knowing as you must that you are in fact separated from the Catholic Church having left it as you've said several times and having no desire to be part of it now. Your desires are conflicted. You want to be acclaimed as a Catholic brother while you want to assert that the Catholic Church is "singular INDIVIDUAL selfishly proclaiming dogma" and so forth and while you liken it to the Mormons (Latter Day Saints). You need to resolve the conflicted desires you've expressed. Choose which way you want to go and be satisfied with it until the day light shines and the path becomes clear.

 

[Rens]

Yes. And I noted that no Catholic - ever, anywhere - has returned the same positive things to me and my church as I say about Catholics and their church. You've chosen to confirm that - and that's okay.

I noted that while I consider Catholics to be my fully equal and unseparated brothers and sisters, it's not returned by Catholics and the RCC and (for some odd reason) you've chosen to confirm that - and that's okay, too.

And yes, Catholics tend to cast ME as the 'anti" one (and certainly not the other way around). You've suggested that's true, too.

Okay.



Thank you.


- Josiah

.

But did they say bad things about your church or compare it with a sect or did they do neither?
If I make post after post after thread after thread bashing Luther (oh my, one guy did that on a Dutch reformed forum and wondered why they weren't very fond of him, he went on and on and on about how evil Calvin and Luther were) and how bad the Lutheran church is, do you think I make friends here with Lammchen if I also make a post that I do like some things about the Lutherans?
I bet you mean it well Josiah, but I think it's best if everyone looks at what's wrong in their own denomination. MacArthur who spoke against the charismatics, let him shut up please. There's a lot wrong, but let some charismatic or pentecostal or evangelical leaders point that out with a lot of wisdom. He's a cessationist. How on earth can he see what's evil and what's not?
And if continually bad things need to be said about the catholic church here, why not about other denominations? Every finger you point 3 point back. Or why not go bash the Messianics? My, a guy on cf did that non stop. Okay, now know we it already that you eat frogs. Anything else? My goodness.
As if all other denominations are perfect. And what is the use of it?
Someone on Facebook: the pope has satan as god and if you're too blind to see that I don't want you as a friend anymore. Well bye bye! Or one guy, I thought he was also from that charismatic/evangelical/WOF whatever group that heals people on the street and brings the gospel, so I accepted his friend request. Then a woman asked him for help. She was sick, so we all pray for each other, she asked for prayer, I pray too. LOL turned out he only befriended us because he's anti. Blablabla my prayer was evil and the WOF was evil. I said: oh sorry that I prayed for you. I thought you were from the other group. Mkay bye. Unfriended him immediately. You don't seriously think I befriend someone who bashes my church and beliefs? Went away from another 'christian friends' Facebook group too for that reason. My goodness. The things they say. No discussion, I just get away from it as soon as possible.
MoreCoffee stays quite friendly I must say.

 

[Sword7]

Summary : my long stack of tradtions are better then your long stack of traditions.
Jesus? Whats he got to do with it ?