Member & Staff Discussion of "Haven" and site foundations

Lamb

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I have seen 2 members complain that this site is not a haven for Christians.

Okay, here is a thread for anyone to discuss this. Do not argue with each other is one of my rules. Please direct your posts to me and Romanos only. This is his forum and he has the right to know why you feel that the foundations are skewed.

We still see it as a Christian haven.

Here's your moment to share with us. Let's hear it.
 

MarkFL

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I think much, if not all, of the problem lies with my statements regarding what we can legitimately claim as knowledge, that is the difference between belief and fact. What we believe may in fact ultimately be true, but unless we have evidence to back it, we cannot claim knowledge of this belief. Some find this truth to be offensive.

Now, I do not ask that people abandon their beliefs, I simply require that beliefs without the backing of compelling evidence not be stated as knowledge when engaged in a discussion. All sides in a discussion must be held to the same standard if we are to be fair and make any kind of progress in the discussion.

If you tell me you believe I am going to hell, I have no problem with that. If you tell me you know I am going to hell, then I will require the evidence or reason you are stating this as knowledge.
 

Josiah

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SINCE YOU ASKED....


1. I posted a long time ago (soon after signing up here) that sites like this need a CLEAR mission statement, a crystal clear sense of vision - and that this needs to be conveyed CLEARLY, centrally, foundationally - right down to the name of the site. Before a business even begins (certainly before anyone will loan that start up a DIME), it needs to CLEARLY understand the market (including competition), the need, and how SPECIFICALLY it will address that need. If you move into a community with 20 Starbucks - all growing and profiting - and determine to open up a coffee shop in a center with 2 Starbucks because "I like coffee shops" and with a plan to "make good coffee" you are DOOMED to failure - and a lot of problems. I shared that ALL the Christian websites I've seen fold or go into decline have done so because they lost their sense of vision, purpose, mission - or worse, abandoned it to become a "me, too" site. THAT (and over-moderating and staff in fighting) is what kills sites. I've seen it over and over again.

2. IF this is a "HAVEN" for Christians, then I think it is doomed. BeliefNet and a thousand other sites are already doing that.... really well.... and have HUGE communities you will never compete with. But good luck.

3. What I like about this site (and why I've "adopted" it as my home) is because...;

A. It seems open..... rules are few, simple, easy to understand, fair - and liberally "enforced." Basically, we are asked to be respectful adults..... BUT permitted to be open, honest, real. And to respectfully disagree. IT'S ALL I ASK FOR IN A SITE. CH is the only one I know of that actually, consistently, fairly DOING that. I want meaningful, respectful, REAL discussions of things that divide us, things I therefore CARE about. I'll bend over backwards for such a site..... I'll pray daily for it to grow. When I felt CF could be that kind of site, I worked by _____ off for it, I served on Staff some 20 hours per week for that.... In a cesspool of relativism and kumbyahism and Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.... while what matters is EMOTION and not TRUTH, to find an island in that horror of contemporary Christianity is a precious, precious thing to me.

B. I want to LEARN. I don't go online for fellowship or support. I meet with PEOPLE for that. I come to LEARN. I want to be CHALLENGED. I come to have things I think revealed to be false or nonsense. I come to be presented with things I didn't know. If I just want to "sing with the choir" and be surrounded by a bunch of "yes-men" I'll go to some "confessional Lutheran" discussion forum (I'm sure they exist). I DON'T. I NEVER go to those sites. I won't be changed there. I'm not likely to grow there. While CH has a LOT of growing to do, we do seem to have a small core of people who are informed, intelligent and articulate with whom I have some disagreements. Now, all we need are a few hundred more to liven up the place and make it really productive and profitable. I think we are headed in that direction.


IF CH becomes a relativistic, all-that-matters-is-how-you-FEEL site, I'll leave. I'm already registered at a whole bunch of those sites - all much bigger than CH (and probably better than CH could be); heck, I'd probably just go back to CF since that's what it has become.... or more likely, just give up with internet discussion forums.



Sorry (but you asked, lol)



- Josiah
 

Josiah

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I think much, if not all, of the problem lies with my statements regarding what we can legitimately claim as knowledge, that is the difference between belief and fact. What we believe may in fact ultimately be true, but unless we have evidence to back it, we cannot claim knowledge of this belief. Some find this truth to be offensive.

Now, I do not ask that people abandon their beliefs, I simply require that beliefs without the backing of compelling evidence not be stated as knowledge when engaged in a discussion. All sides in a discussion must be held to the same standard if we are to be fair and make any kind of progress in the discussion.

If you tell me you believe I am going to hell, I have no problem with that. If you tell me you know I am going to hell, then I will require the evidence or reason you are stating this as knowledge.

The rubric in this thread is not to discuss with each other, but..... (wink)

I think there DOES need to be an understanding that SOME areas are for Christians (and I like using the Nicene Creed to define that). I very much WANT others (including agnostics and also atheists) to be able to come here (although I'd suspect the title itself would keep them at bay); I DO think they have something of great value to say and contribute. But just as they come with assumptions, so do Christians. And when those foundational assumptions are different, discussions can be HARD. Thus - WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO ALL - I think some sections need to be for "Christians only" and some sections need to be CLEARLY (there's the key point) designated as welcoming non-Christian perspectives.

I also think it is HELPFUL for all posters to have some kind of faith designation (as I do, for Lutheran) and that these be available. It simply HELPS to know the framework of the person with whom we are conversing. And helps us know that when an Muslim or Buddhist or Agnostic or even an Atheist is writing, there is a foundation there we need to embrace as the milieu for that writer (and we need to respect that).



Sorry.


My half cent.


:bolt:




.
 

seekingsolace

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I do think a lot of the problems are primarily from a small community. Debates, and differences are intensified and I see clear divides between members.

There is a lot of deliberate baiting going on, though I don't see how this can be moderated.

I hoped that the forum would be aimed at edification for believers. A haven away from controversies, hateful speech, and pointless disputes. Maybe I'm getting sentimental, but it's what you crave after using other forums.
 

psalms 91

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I do think a lot of the problems are primarily from a small community. Debates, and differences are intensified and I see clear divides between members.

There is a lot of deliberate baiting going on, though I don't see how this can be moderated.

I hoped that the forum would be aimed at edification for believers. A haven away from controversies, hateful speech, and pointless disputes. Maybe I'm getting sentimental, but it's what you crave after using other forums.
True but then you have perfect agreement and as far as peace I dont see that happening without a lot of moderation.
 

MoreCoffee

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I have seen 2 members complain that this site is not a haven for Christians.

Okay, here is a thread for anyone to discuss this. Do not argue with each other is one of my rules. Please direct your posts to me and Romanos only. This is his forum and he has the right to know why you feel that the foundations are skewed.

We still see it as a Christian haven.

Here's your moment to share with us. Let's hear it.

I'd like to see the safe haven church/denomination/group sub-forums re-established :)
 

psalms 91

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I'd like to see the safe haven church/denomination/group sub-forums re-established :)
I think it is an answer to having some peace but I also think we need to grow a lot more before slintering the forum, just my thoughts
 

seekingsolace

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True but then you have perfect agreement and as far as peace I dont see that happening without a lot of moderation.

Yeah i was just being sentimental.
 

visionary

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Safe haven.... in this world of sin and sinners. ... not going to happen...

but what can happen is that in the spirit of love and humble obedience to the truth,... we can share. ... I would not use the Nicene Creed as your foundation... I would use

Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
 

Hammster

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I have seen 2 members complain that this site is not a haven for Christians.

Okay, here is a thread for anyone to discuss this. Do not argue with each other is one of my rules. Please direct your posts to me and Romanos only. This is his forum and he has the right to know why you feel that the foundations are skewed.

We still see it as a Christian haven.

Here's your moment to share with us. Let's hear it.

What sort of haven are they expecting?
 

seekingsolace

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I have seen 2 members complain that this site is not a haven for Christians.

Okay, here is a thread for anyone to discuss this. Do not argue with each other is one of my rules. Please direct your posts to me and Romanos only. This is his forum and he has the right to know why you feel that the foundations are skewed.

We still see it as a Christian haven.

Here's your moment to share with us. Let's hear it.

I think Alithis is already gone.
 

psalms 91

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Yes I think so, I also saw a member who mentioned the ignore button and would use it if available, is this an option or something we even want
 

MarkFL

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Yes I think so, I also saw a member who mentioned the ignore button and would use it if available, is this an option or something we even want

This is something that is standard for vBulletin, and can be found on your settings page. Depending on the settings, moderators and administrators may not be eligible for ignoring.
 

Lamb

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So, digging through these posts so far and collecting the reasons why people do not find us to be a haven:

1) Because Mark had some posts that rubbed people the wrong way
2) Because there are already too many other Christian forums out there
3) Because of intense debates with clear divides among a small community of members within the site
4) Because it is not edifying members due to controversies, hateful speech, and pointless disputes
5) Because we consolidated the denominational groups into one forum


I am not ignoring suggestions from members, I just wanted to point out the parts I've seen that have answered why it has been implied that we are not a haven.
 

Hammster

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So, digging through these posts so far and collecting the reasons why people do not find us to be a haven:

1) Because Mark had some posts that rubbed people the wrong way
2) Because there are already too many other Christian forums out there
3) Because of intense debates with clear divides among a small community of members within the site
4) Because it is not edifying members due to controversies, hateful speech, and pointless disputes
5) Because we consolidated the denominational groups into one forum


I am not ignoring suggestions from members, I just wanted to point out the parts I've seen that have answered why it has been implied that we are not a haven.

Thanks.

You can't please everyone.
 

Brighten04

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Well the name is Christianity Haven. I would think that it would be that. Now I am not saying that non Christians should not be welcome, but if is a haven for Christianity, then Christians should be safe and not undermined by unbelievers. That is like putting the fox in the hen house IMHO. How is that a haven? Well, you asked. There is enough difference among Christians to make healthy debate and discussion. Maybe it just needs a name change. It is not a haven, as much as we want it to be so.
 

Lamb

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Well the name is Christianity Haven. I would think that it would be that. Now I am not saying that non Christians should not be welcome, but if is a haven for Christianity, then Christians should be safe and not undermined by unbelievers. That is like putting the fox in the hen house IMHO. How is that a haven? Well, you asked. There is enough difference among Christians to make healthy debate and discussion. Maybe it just needs a name change. It is not a haven, as much as we want it to be so.

How has this site been undermined by non-Christians?
 

psalms 91

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How has this site been undermined by non-Christians?
Most of the undermining I see is the disagreements among believers which has turned rather ugly at times
 

Hammster

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The only suggestion I have is that if someone doesn't want their views challenged, don't post them.
 
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