Math = White Privilege?

[tango]

They bring up IQ. Yes, I have trolled hate sites. :xD:

I don't know that I'd regard that kind of site as a useful source of information. You say you were trolling, it's not necessarily safe to assume others there weren't also trolling. I know there are at least some racists out there but an anonymous site where people can try and one-up each other wouldn't be my first choice for objective sampling.

 

[Jason76]

I don't know that I'd regard that kind of site as a useful source of information. You say you were trolling, it's not necessarily safe to assume others there weren't also trolling. I know there are at least some racists out there but an anonymous site where people can try and one-up each other wouldn't be my first choice for objective sampling.

There is a disturbing trend among scientists to focus on IQ. However, due to the effect of World War II - eugenics, IQ stuff is shunned. However, though, just because something is taboo - doesn't make it right. O.K. they've stated these rebellious opinions, but let's take another look at the opposing ones again - without just saying "The rebellious ones are not nice opinions.".

However, though, without God in the picture - there isn't much case for "kind science". Genetics seems to be a strong foundation of what people are.

 

[FredVB]

I'm just generalizing to answer racist thought. Most racists might bring up math - even though, a vast majority of whites are not math whizzes - just as with everyone else, except Northeast Asians, maybe.

Yahweh God who is Creator has all the mathematical knowledge. Humans made in God's image have ability to some extent modeled on God's ability. Any human people if not damaged have potential for understanding a good deal of mathematics. Racists do not have legitimate basis to say the capacity is divided with greater portion to some specific ethnicity or "race", there are just possible resources of privilege with positions for some that suggests this to such racists. That there are exceptional individuals of any other ethnicity occasionally in such privileged position who excel with mathematical ability shows that it is possible among all of healthy humanity.

 

[Jason76]

Yahweh God who is Creator has all the mathematical knowledge. Humans made in God's image have ability to some extent modeled on God's ability. Any human people if not damaged have potential for understanding a good deal of mathematics. Racists do not have legitimate basis to say the capacity is divided with greater portion to some specific ethnicity or "race", there are just possible resources of privilege with positions for some that suggests this to such racists. That there are exceptional individuals of any other ethnicity occasionally in such privileged position who excel with mathematical ability shows that it is possible among all of healthy humanity.

Such a position is still difficult to defend with science - like it or not. O.K. one approach might be to say God can heal genetic problems. But of course, racists are so obsessed with superiority and hate (which they deny by saying it's pride) that they - have no interest in mental egalitarianism.

 

[tango]

Such a position is still difficult to defend with science - like it or not. O.K. one approach might be to say God can heal genetic problems. But of course, racists are so obsessed with superiority and hate (which they deny by saying it's pride) that they - have no interest in mental egalitarianism.

It's really not helpful to refer to "racists" as if they were a uniform group who all think alike. It's not necessarily true to say that there is an obsession with hate - it is possible to believe that one race is inherently superior to another without hating either the superior or the inferior race.

As far as different races having different distribution of abilities is concerned, I don't know it could sensibly be considered racist to observe that Oriental people are generally better at mathematics than other races, or that east Africans are generally better at long distance running events, or that other African men are often more powerfully built than white men - it's a simple observation of reality. It's clearly not a universal truth but it doesn't show prejudice to make an observation. I'm sure the level of representation of black players in the NBA is due to a lot more than affirmative action running out of control.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, it could be true that some races or genders are BY NATURE (via their DNA) better at some things than others. I realize this may disturb some liberals assumptions but denying reality doesn't change it.

But I suspect MOST of the time, it's more environmental and/or cultural. A 15 year old Japanese girl may score higher on a math test than a 15 year old girl from St. Kitts, but this is likely only because the Japanese has received more math education and PERHAPS because math is more valued in Japan than in St. Kitts?

Not to sound racist (um) but my wife use to be a public school teacher (elementary school). And she admitted that scores of Hispanic and African-American students TENDED as a group to be the lowest, White kids next, and students of Asian heritage at the top. GENERALLY (with lots of individual exceptions). BUT a comment is needed: Among the Hispanics, if language wasn't an issue at all, Hispanic kids fully fluent in English scored above the African - Americans and pretty much equal to the Whites but still below the Asians. I might add that when I was in grad school at the University of California, among students heading for a Ph.D., the Asians were presented in FAR, FAR greater numbers than their percentage of the population in California, the Whites in about the same percentage, Hispanics next, and African Americans in FAR less percentage than in the general California population. Do I personally believe this is because of "smarts?" Absolutely NOT. I'm 100% sure it has NOTHING to do with that.

HERE IS HER SPIN ON THIS: The VALUE and importance that the PARENTS give to education was also clearly cultural: Way at the top was Asian parents. Well under them was Whites and second generation Hispanics, and at the bottom was African Americans. You could see it in the parent/teacher conferences, in parental involvement with homework, in parental contact, etc. Again, generalizations.... ALWAYS striking exceptions, but the generally was obvious and undeniable. BTW. she also noted that PARENT'S attitude toward teachers varied culturally too (and not exactly as the above). Asian and Hispanic parents tended to regard teaching as a noble and important profession to be respected, whites and especially A/A not. There's a cultural aspect to that, too.

Education is a value. But one not equally embraced. There is a cultural aspect to this. And I personally suspect this plays a FAR better role than DNA (maybe even more than IQ).



My half-cent. With apologies for the obvious generalities.


- Josiah

 

[Jason76]

It's really not helpful to refer to "racists" as if they were a uniform group who all think alike. It's not necessarily true to say that there is an obsession with hate - it is possible to believe that one race is inherently superior to another without hating either the superior or the inferior race.

As far as different races having different distribution of abilities is concerned, I don't know it could sensibly be considered racist to observe that Oriental people are generally better at mathematics than other races, or that east Africans are generally better at long distance running events, or that other African men are often more powerfully built than white men - it's a simple observation of reality. It's clearly not a universal truth but it doesn't show prejudice to make an observation. I'm sure the level of representation of black players in the NBA is due to a lot more than affirmative action running out of control.

But they don't! They don't love other races, yet think they are inferior. That's the running joke on those hate sites.

 

[tango]

But they don't! They don't love other races, yet think they are inferior. That's the running joke on those hate sites.

You can't really use a few silly web sites as a source of reliable information, especially if you're going to extrapolate from it. You might as well watch the nutjobs at Westboro Baptist "Church" and extrapolate from there to assume what Christians as a whole think about gay people.

I don't doubt for a minute that you can find members of any race who hate some other race. But to generalize from that and assume that all people who might be called racist are much the same is absurd.

 

[tango]

HERE IS HER SPIN ON THIS: The VALUE and importance that the PARENTS give to education was also clearly cultural: Way at the top was Asian parents. Well under them was Whites and second generation Hispanics, and at the bottom was African Americans. You could see it in the parent/teacher conferences, in parental involvement with homework, in parental contact, etc. Again, generalizations.... ALWAYS striking exceptions, but the generally was obvious and undeniable. BTW. she also noted that PARENT'S attitude toward teachers varied culturally too (and not exactly as the above). Asian and Hispanic parents tended to regard teaching as a noble and important profession to be respected, whites and especially A/A not. There's a cultural aspect to that, too.

Education is a value. But one not equally embraced. There is a cultural aspect to this. And I personally suspect this plays a FAR better role than DNA (maybe even more than IQ).

One interesting aspect of mathematics where Oriental populations are concerned is the way at least some Oriental languages describe numbers.

In English we have useful concepts like "twelve" and "forty six" whereas I believe at least some Oriental languages would have numbers that work more like "ten-two" or "four-tens-six". That alone can make numbers appear easier to work with.

Parental attitudes are also very important. I remember as a child I used to play a game with my parents where they would start with a number and then give me things to do with the number. So I might start with 5 and be told a succession of things like "add 2", "multiply by 7", "subtract 9", "divide by 4" and so on. As I got better at the game, so it got harder. To my child's mind it was a game, and it was fun trying to get my parents to go faster to see if I could keep up. Along the way I learned to juggle numbers in my head. Many friends find it curious the way I just handle numbers as numbers, so whether you're calculating a budget for the youth club with $500 to work with, or calculating the annualised interest rate on a $500,000,000 bond based on irregular cashflows, it's just a bunch of numbers. A lot of people I know see big numbers and mentally struggle just because it's a big number. But adding $100,000,000 to $500,000,000 is fundamentally no different to adding $100 to $500.

 

[Jason76]

You can't really use a few silly web sites as a source of reliable information, especially if you're going to extrapolate from it. You might as well watch the nutjobs at Westboro Baptist "Church" and extrapolate from there to assume what Christians as a whole think about gay people.

I don't doubt for a minute that you can find members of any race who hate some other race. But to generalize from that and assume that all people who might be called racist are much the same is absurd.

The activists could be generalized. Racists, in general, cannot be.

 

[tango]

The activists could be generalized. Racists, in general, cannot be.

I'd be wary of generalizing activists. As soon as you start to assume what someone else thinks based on some aspect of them that matches someone else, you risk mischaracterizing their perspectives. That's not a good way to engage with people at all, and is a good way to create more division.

I remember talking with a guy on another forum, who lives in an overwhelmingly white area. I think it's safe to say his only experience of black people is when he sees a black talking head on the TV. His point that a person isn't any less black just because they appear on TV, but he hadn't particularly considered the perspective that a black face on TV doesn't speak for all black people. Since he is a white Republican-voter I asked him how he would feel if someone saw Hillary Clinton on TV and assumed she spoke for him because they were of the same race.

 

[Jason76]

I'd be wary of generalizing activists. As soon as you start to assume what someone else thinks based on some aspect of them that matches someone else, you risk mischaracterizing their perspectives. That's not a good way to engage with people at all, and is a good way to create more division.

I remember talking with a guy on another forum, who lives in an overwhelmingly white area. I think it's safe to say his only experience of black people is when he sees a black talking head on the TV. His point that a person isn't any less black just because they appear on TV, but he hadn't particularly considered the perspective that a black face on TV doesn't speak for all black people. Since he is a white Republican-voter I asked him how he would feel if someone saw Hillary Clinton on TV and assumed she spoke for him because they were of the same race.

The definition of activist is way more narrow then saying liberal or conservative - or democrat or republican. I'm speaking of what most people see as a specific talking head for white racists.

Of course, saying all racists are the same does disservice to their cause - cause maybe science backs them up some - and perhaps the motive of many isn't hate but benevolence.

 

[Romanos]

Though this article and topic are a few years old, it's still a bit painful to see such assumptions made regarding claims like this.

 

[tango]

The definition of activist is way more narrow then saying liberal or conservative - or democrat or republican. I'm speaking of what most people see as a specific talking head for white racists.

Of course, saying all racists are the same does disservice to their cause - cause maybe science backs them up some - and perhaps the motive of many isn't hate but benevolence.

Of course, an activist might have a very narrowly defined goal that doesn't neatly fit into a broad grouping. Some might say I'm an activist in my own way, as I'm trying to get more resources to enforce speed limits in my local area. It's a very specific issue that's totally unrelated to party lines - people speeding through town are a nuisance whatever your politics, skin color, sexuality, whatever.

I'm really struggling to figure out why you keep bringing up racists, and why you keep referring to them as if they were a universal mass when there are different degrees of racism, racism within different communities and so on.

 

[Jason76]

Of course, an activist might have a very narrowly defined goal that doesn't neatly fit into a broad grouping. Some might say I'm an activist in my own way, as I'm trying to get more resources to enforce speed limits in my local area. It's a very specific issue that's totally unrelated to party lines - people speeding through town are a nuisance whatever your politics, skin color, sexuality, whatever.

I'm really struggling to figure out why you keep bringing up racists, and why you keep referring to them as if they were a universal mass when there are different degrees of racism, racism within different communities and so on.

Of course. there are different degrees of racism. That's how come extremists can "go by stealth" and take advantage of known resentment - though less severe, to make their extremist views less scary. However, there's no way to stop that phenomenon. I mean, it reminds me of those Christians who want to ban rock and roll because "supposedly" it's influencing degenerate ways of life (drug use, abortion, family breakdown).

 

[tango]

Of course. there are different degrees of racism. That's how come extremists can "go by stealth" and take advantage of known resentment - though less severe, to make their extremist views less scary. However, there's no way to stop that phenomenon. I mean, it reminds me of those Christians who want to ban rock and roll because "supposedly" it's influencing degenerate ways of life (drug use, abortion, family breakdown).

There are different degrees of racism but I think you're blurring distinctions here.

There's a big difference between, say, having a generic dislike of black people as a race, and holding a viewpoint that affirmative action policies (that help black people) are counterproductive. To feel resentment towards someone for being allowed to jump a line, or have an easier goal to hit, or whatever other artificial differentiation is put in place isn't inherently racist - I think a white kid from the trailer park who struggles to beat the odds would have every right to feel resentful about being overlooked for a place at college in favor of a black kid who had lower grades because of some vague concept of "white priviliege" that needed to be addressed. Maybe some extremists might tap into that kind of sentiment but it's important to differentiate between a very reasonable concern about policies labelled as being "anti-discrimination" that actually do nothing more than discriminate the other way, and the kind of silliness chanted by some factions in the UK such as "there ain't no black in the Union Jack".

If there's resentment that isn't rooted in racism then talking about it doesn't necessarily equate to trying to smooth over extremist viewpoints. From what I can see most people want to be truly color-blind as far as race is concerned, except for a very small minority of hardcore types and those (mostly on the political left) who want to endlessly insert race into everything.

 

[Jason76]

There are different degrees of racism but I think you're blurring distinctions here.

There's a big difference between, say, having a generic dislike of black people as a race, and holding a viewpoint that affirmative action policies (that help black people) are counterproductive. To feel resentment towards someone for being allowed to jump a line, or have an easier goal to hit, or whatever other artificial differentiation is put in place isn't inherently racist - I think a white kid from the trailer park who struggles to beat the odds would have every right to feel resentful about being overlooked for a place at college in favor of a black kid who had lower grades because of some vague concept of "white priviliege" that needed to be addressed. Maybe some extremists might tap into that kind of sentiment but it's important to differentiate between a very reasonable concern about policies labelled as being "anti-discrimination" that actually do nothing more than discriminate the other way, and the kind of silliness chanted by some factions in the UK such as "there ain't no black in the Union Jack".

If there's resentment that isn't rooted in racism then talking about it doesn't necessarily equate to trying to smooth over extremist viewpoints. From what I can see most people want to be truly color-blind as far as race is concerned, except for a very small minority of hardcore types and those (mostly on the political left) who want to endlessly insert race into everything.

Most racists and liberals want to inject race, the first does it to provoke a white backlash - on purpose, the other in some kind of naive way.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MY schooling did not make much mention that the system of numerals that we use in the west came from India. Nor that Algebra is an Arabic word and is a system of mathematical study that originated among Muslim Arabs. Nor is the concept of zero attributed to India's mathematicians. Geometry came from Egypt is seems and China and independently native Americas before Columbus who also independently discovered the concept of zero. It was Greeks, Persians, and Romans who created the basics of mathematics as we know it in the west and it was a long time after the ancient Greeks and Persians and Romans developed many concepts that we use that the Germanic people of Western Europe acquired those concepts by inheritance from the Greeks and Romans. So yes, a great deal of mathematics as it is taught in schools and universities has ignored the non-Germanic non-white sources for at least half and possibly a lot more than half of the mathematical concepts that we use today.

It is also worth noticing that many of the world's best mathematicians are Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Hispanic. So people who imagine that Isaac Newton, Laplace, and a number of other famous European Mathematicians are the inventors of virtually all of the mathematics that we use are gravely mistaken.

 

[tango]

Most racists and liberals want to inject race, the first does it to provoke a white backlash - on purpose, the other in some kind of naive way.

I wouldn't say there's anything naive about the injection of race into matters that don't relate to race.