Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

[Josiah]

Instea of just repeating the same thing, why don't you tell me why I am wrong and you are right. "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument.

.... AND. "Because my particular church insists that it itself alone cannot be wrong about this stuff so it can't be wrong about this stuff so it's not wrong about this" doesn't work, either.


Everyone here KNOWS that our Catholic brothers church teaches that Mary remained a virgin... yup. No debate there. But his claim is that SCRIPTURE "clearly states" that. But he has repeatedly PROVEN (over and over and over and over again) that he's wrong about that, that's false, that's not true.




What he has done with these hundreds of posts is....


1. Note what his individual church now teaches - in NO CASE instructing anyone because we all already knew that. Many of us here at CH are former Catholics (or perhaps have spouses are such) and (frankly) could have conveyed the Catholic teaching a lot better than he has done.

2. PROVE that Scripture says none of it. THIS seems to be his overarching goal, his reason to be here, to PROVE in clear and undeniably ways that Scripture does not say what his unique church has declared to be dogma. He has powerfully supported the claims of some Protestants that Catholicism is not biblical. Some Catholics seem DETERMINED to undermine Catholicism in this way (and shoot themselves in the foot).

3. Turned off a lot of people. Encouraged others to unsubscribe to his threads and even place him on ignore.


Obviously, he is doing "copy and paste" from some REALLY BAD fundamentalist Catholic website (but clearly doesn't actually READ what he's copying/pasting) that isn't designed for ecumenical discussion but for docilic Catholics who embrace the rubic that whatever conservative Catholic bishops today say is just to be swallowed whole cuz those self same bishops tell 'em to. Now, the site wishes to show the teachings are biblically POSSIBLE if "spun" as they do, but that's not the point: It's their church spinning it and teaching them... and they as docilic, obedient Catholics therefore just swallow it (I won't use the "kool-aid" thing). As a former Catholic myself, I GET IT. I know how this works. And I even empathized a bit since I too accept the concept of Authority. But FEW in the Catholic Church operate with that rubric... and NONE outside do. So you are right, it doesn't work.




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[Faithhopeandcharity]

Daily dose of doctrine shall continue!

eve in the garden was a virgin, but eve did not remain a virgin so she is never identified in scripture as a virgin, Mary is identified in scripture as a virgin cos she always remained a virgin!
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lk 1:
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Next time Monday after the holidays

happy thanksgiving everyone!

 

[Castle Church]

Daily dose of doctrine shall continue!

eve in the garden was a virgin, but eve did not remain a virgin so she is never identified in scripture as a virgin, Mary is identified in scripture as a virgin cos she always remained a virgin!
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lk 1:
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Next time Monday after the holidays

happy thanksgiving everyone!

That does not prove she was ever virgin, it simply proves that she was a virgin when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and when she was espoused to Joseph. The scripture quoted in no way is saying that "she always remained a virgin". None of us are debating that she was a virgin at the conception of Jesus or before.

So again, scripture is proving the opposite (or at best silent) of what you are trying to prove.

 

[Josiah]

That does not prove she was ever virgin

Our Catholic brother has an enormous passion to prove that Scripture does not say what he (and his church) do. Why he feels SO overwhelmingly compelled to do this (endlessly!) is... well.... odd. But it is his all consuming passion.

He proved that Scripture nowhere says Mary remained a virgin.... no one disagrees with him.... so my advise, it's useless to continue reading his posts. He long ago proved Scripture does not. And he seems equally compelled to do with with other distictive dogmas of his church, too. Why he thinks this will convince Protestants... well.... I just don't know.




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[Castle Church]

Our Catholic brother has an enormous passion to prove that Scripture does not say what he (and his church) do. Why he feels SO overwhelmingly compelled to do this (endlessly!) is... well.... odd. But it is his all consuming passion.

He proved that Scripture nowhere says Mary remained a virgin.... no one disagrees with him.... so my advise, it's useless to continue reading his posts. He long ago proved Scripture does not. And he seems equally compelled to do with with other distictive dogmas of his church, too.

Yeah, I have stopped sometimes, but then I feel compelled to again. Probably not worth my (our) time. He is as set in his beliefs as we are ours, which is something to be admired to a point.

Why he thinks this will convince Protestants... well.... I just don't know.

Especially Protestants like several here, including both of us I believe, that were active Catholics but chose a different path. It is not like we just blindly were brought up in this way or ignorantly went Protestant.

 

[Josiah]

Yeah, I have stopped sometimes, but then I feel compelled to again. Probably not worth my (our) time. He is as set in his beliefs as we are ours, which is something to be admired to a point.

Especially Protestants like several here, including both of us I believe, that were active Catholics but chose a different path. It is not like we just blindly were brought up in this way or ignorantly went Protestant.

Yup.

Most Protestants believe that the distinctive dogmas and claims of The Catholic Church are not found in Scripture.... it is perhaps their biggest criticism of that church. Ironically, Mark insists on proving that true. Why? It's hard to say. He's doing Catholicism a great deal of harm, although I'm sure that's not his intent.

Our brother in Christ, it seems to ME, is just employing copy/paste from some really BAD Catholic website... one designed and intended for docilic Catholics who hold that whatever their church says is just to be swallowed whole... and however it itself alone spins Scripture is just to be accepted "with docility" as they are taught. Okay. Might work for fundamentalist Catholics (who buy into CCC 85, 87, etc.) but all it does in an ecumenical community is prove the distinctive dogmas and claims of The Catholic Church are not found in Scripture, the rubric is extremely dangerous (even cultic), and the apologetics are extreme examples of circular reasoning.

Too bad, really. We need the Catholic perspective here... and there is MUCH good to be found there.


Yeah, several of us here are former Catholics.




To the thread: Our Catholic brother is right: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is found nowhere in Scripture.



A blessed Advent season to all...


- Josiah




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[Faithhopeandcharity]

Back by popular demand!

testimony of the fathers.
The successors of the apostles
Matt 28:19 acts 2:42

St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.

For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

 

[Josiah]

testimony of the fathers.

Mark -


No one denies that many in the Early Church had this opinion and belief.... in fact, I made this point here long before you did.

But your claim is that "Scripture clearly states" this dogma of your church. That SCRIPTURE says this.... "clearly." But you have gone to great lengths, much trouble, spending much time here proving you are wrong, your claim is false. You do that with virtually all the things you claim, all the unique claims of your church, on many topics. Shooting yourself in the foot.... indisputably proving you are wrong.... giving great support to those "Evangelicals" who hold that the claims/dogmas of your church are not found in Scripture. Why you do this, I haven't a clue.

Everyone already knows that your church teaches this. And you have proven that Scripture nowhere says it. I think we're done.


See post 221




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[Faith]

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

Why do you keep posting Scripture that doesn’t prove your point?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Why do you keep posting Scripture that doesn’t prove your point?

Tell me what it means then

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Mark -


No one denies that many in the Early Church had this opinion and belief.... in fact, I made this point here long before you did.

But your claim is that "Scripture clearly states" this dogma of your church. That SCRIPTURE says this.... "clearly." But you have gone to great lengths, much trouble, spending much time here proving you are wrong, your claim is false. You do that with virtually all the things you claim, all the unique claims of your church, on many topics. Shooting yourself in the foot.... indisputably proving you are wrong.... giving great support to those "Evangelicals" who hold that the claims/dogmas of your church are not found in Scripture. Why you do this, I haven't a clue.

Everyone already knows that your church teaches this. And you have proven that Scripture nowhere says it. I think we're done.


See post 221




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What is the source of truth for Christians?
What is the rule of faith for Christians?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?

 

[Josiah]

What is the source of truth for Christians?
What is the rule of faith for Christians?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?

1. Questions are not apologetics. ANYONE can ask questions, the ONLY thing this substantiates is the grammatical ability to form a sentence.

2. NONE of those questions proves your claim that Scripture clearly states that Mary was a perpetual virgin. A claim you've already proved (endlessly!!) is not true, a claim you yourself went to some length to prove is false.




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[Faithhopeandcharity]

It’s perfectly ok for Joseph to have sex with Mary after the birth of Jesus if it’s ok to hold a rock & roll dance in the holy of Holies or if you can use the ark of the covenant for a common dinner table!

I think to do so would mean instant death!

This verse imply’s that Mary is consecrated to God alone! and has taken a vow of perpetual virginity! She was s willing to refuse even the exalted dignity of mother of God, the mother of our savior, and mother of all Christians if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

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Why does it need be explicit in scripture?
Why scripture alone!
Christ is the rule of faith or source of truth for Christians!
Jn 14:6 Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life! The church is an extension of Christ 1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth!

Must be taught by Christ! Gal 1:2

What God has revealed by scripture and the church, the teaching authority of the apostles has proposed for our belief!

Christians must be instructed or taught!

A Christian must have humility and obedience of faith to be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life!
Jn 14:6

Verses of scripture signifying that we must be taught.

Lk 1:4
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
The church is an exodus christ by which Christ perpetuates his mission, ministry, and teaching with His power and authority through all the world and all ages!

The private interpretation of the “Bible alone” does not and cannot and will not lead to a unity of faith! 2 Pet 1:20
eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Jn 1:16-17 fullness of Christ!


The Bible does not say all truths revealed by God are found in the “Bible alone”! Or that the word of God is limited to the “Bible alone”!

Not the “Bible alone” acts 2:42
Not personal interpretation or experiences. 2 Pet 1:20

The authority of the apostles is required to know what is the scriptures and what is not, the church having wrote the New Testament by the authority of Christ the apostles determined what is scripture and the authentic interpretation there of!
How did the church for almost four centuries live without the “Bible alone”?

The teaching authority of the apostles that’s how! The Bible’s is the Bible by the authority of the church, Christ’s authority given to His apostles!

Christ founded the church on Peter and the apostles to defend, to protect, and to teach “thee faith”

A fundamentalist is ruled by spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement from scripture, or the humility to hear the teaching of Christ through the church of His apostles?
Obedience of faith: rom 16:26
We must be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Jn 14:6
Instructed: Lk 1:4 acts 8:31
Teach all nations: Matt 28:19
He who hears you (the apostles) hears me: lk 10:16
Hear the church: Matt 18:17
Church is the pillar and ground of truth: 1 Tim 3:14
Christ and his church are one, the church is an extension of Christ through the whole world and all time: acts 9:4

Not scripture plus private judgement

But guided by the teaching office of Christ and his church!

Without the teaching authority of the apostles you cannot know what is and what is not scripture!

Please explain how the church of Jesus Christ existed before the New Testament, the church taught and believed before the New Testament with the same authority of Christ!

Church of the apostles has the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23

The church wrote the New Testament, the church gathered the cannon of scripture, the church alone has authority to say what is, and what is not scripture and to give the authoritative interpretation or meaning of scripture!

Not spiritual pride & self-righteous private judgement!

Rule of faith cannot be the “Bible Alone” because we did not have a bible until 381 when the church of the apostles by the authority of Christ determined what was and what was not scripture! You only have a bible cos the church wrote one and cannonized it by the authority of Christ thru his apostles!

Could not read
The Bible itself points to authority granted by Christ
The Bible condemns person interpretation of scripture as opposed to the church of the apostles having the authority of Christ to interpret scripture

so how can the rule of faith be the “Bible alone” when it did not even exist until the church approved it in 381 by the authority of Christ in His apostles, what about the millions who could not read most could not read until the 20th century, and books including Bible were rare and very expensive all written by hand (mostly by monks who sacrificed their whole life to copy a bible) until the printing press, even then they were still expensive
What does a blind person do?

the Holy Spirit is guaranteed to the apostles Jn 16:13 they are to teach the nations Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 acts 8

in acts 8 did the eunuch know about Christ and baptism from the scripture and the Holy Spirit? No God sent him and apostle


Acts 2:42 the held the doctrine of the apostles
Not the doctrine of the “Bible alone”!


Where does the Bible say the rule of faith is the Bible alone?

the Bible was not assembled and approved until 381 by the apostles btw
Only the apostles said what is and what is not scripture.

What did Christians do in all those years without the “Bible alone”
until the advent of printing bibles were copied by hand and very rare and extremely expensive what did Christians do in those days
Most people were illiterate until the 20th century what did they do?
So you see the “Bible Alone” cannot be the rule of faith for Christians!
Instead we actually believe scripture and submit to and obey the apostles acts 2:42


Must be taught! Must be instructed by Christ!

Bible does not say to read and decide doctrine for you’re self!

Lk 1:1-4

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture but needed to be instructed by an apostle.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Taught by Christ thru His apostles!

Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Christ taught them and us thru the apostles.

Lk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Not scripture alone, but what the prophets spoke! And Christ explaining the scriptures, and we also are disciples, Christ also opens the scripture to us thru His church by the teaching authority of the apostles!

The problem with the “Bible alone”!

You can easily see why the false doctrine of the “Bible alone” causes so many problems and why we can simply ignor creeds, councils, dogma, and decrees of the holy apostles teaching infallibility with the authority of Christ!

“Bible alone” is false doctrine
Negates the word of God, apostolic councils, creeds, cannons, decrees, dogma, and the teaching authority of the apostles!

The false doctrine of “the Bible Alone” is an attack on Christ and His holy church!
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
To reject the church or church teaching is to reject Christ!

An attack on the holy church and her divine authority!

Even Christ who is the truth itself is excluded!

verses that refer to authority other than the “Bible Alone” our of your Bible!

Isa 22:21-22 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 1:32 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 Jn 21:17 Acts 1:17 acts 1:26 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 20:28 eph 2:20 and too many more to mention!

The Bible alone is based on spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement, and personal interpretation, and not truth revealed by God in Christ without error, thru the teaching authority of the apostles!

God, Christ, the HS, the church, the apostles cannot be any authority at all, only scripture
1st problem is that the church of the apostles says what is and what is not scripture
The Bible comes from the teaching of the apostles

Pillar and foundation of truth!
The church will Christ’s authority in the apostles!
1 Tim 3:15

The church existed before the New Testament!
The church believed and taught before there was a New Testament!
The church exercised authority before there was a New Testament!
The authority of Christ thru His one true church wrote the New Testament!

Scripture alone is not enough

Lk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Acts 1:15 peter stood up and opened the scripture to them

acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent an apostle to teach him

not Bible alone and a personal interpretation!

Bible alone

example: of the word of God not in the Bible alone!

Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Or
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

these are divine revelation!
Inspired by the Holy Spirit!
And the word of God!

why do some only accept them after they are written down?

they are divine revelation and the inspired word of God when they were received, and when they were taught to the people, and when they were written down! Why only accept them in the written form or “Bible alone”???

Where does Christ or scripture say that all the divinely reveled truths are in scripture?
Where does Christ or scripture say what is and what is not scripture?

 

[Josiah]

Why does it need be explicit in scripture?

Because your claim is that this dogma of your church is "clearly stated in Scripture." But as you yourself have chosen to clearly, indisputibly prove, you are wrong, your claim is false. You have gone to great lengths - over and over and over and over, beating us over the head with it - to prove this is not stated ANYWHERE in Scripture.

14:6 Gal 1:2 Lk 1:4 Matt 18:17 Matt 28:19 Acts 9:4 2 Pet 1:20 eph 4:13 Jn 1:16-17 acts 2:42 2 Pet 1:20: rom 16:26 Lk 1:4 acts 8:31 Matt 28:19 lk 10:16 Matt 18:171 Tim 3:14 acts 9:4 Jn 20:21-23

YES! We know! You've proven it over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

YES! We know! Scripture nowhere states what you do.

Seriously, brother, why (for heaven's sake) do you continue to go to such lengths to prove this isn't found in Scripture? As you might know, the chief criticism of your church by many "Evangelicals" is that its distinctive teachings and claims are nowhere found in Scripture.... so why (pray tell) must you go to such lengths to prove they are right? Makes me scratch my head (fortunately, I have lots of thick hair on my head).

Not spiritual pride & self-righteous private judgement!

Right! This too is a point many rebuke your church for doing... then you keep saying "my church does this." Yup, as we all know, your church permits only ONE to interpret Scripture - itself. CCC 85 and 87. It allows no other to interpret Scrpture or Tradition - only it itself alone. This too is something many "Evangelicals" condemn your church for doing... what you keep insisting it indeed does (then you condemn it too). Odd. Seriously, brother.

Isa 22:21-22 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 1:32 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 Jn 21:17 Acts 1:17 acts 1:26 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 20:28 eph 2:20 and too many more to mention!

NONE of which state any of the things your singular church says about Mary. Which (I'm sure) is why you don't quote them.






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[Faith]

Tell me what it means then

Most of your posts are just c&p of Scripture but you fail to just answer questions,

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Most of your posts are just c&p of Scripture but you fail to just answer questions,

I have extensive notes so yes I copy and paste cos I can’t remember everything

what is your question?

is Mary a virgin? Yes Isa 7:14

 

[Faith]

I have extensive notes so yes I copy and paste cos I can’t remember everything

what is your question?

is Mary a virgin? Yes Isa 7:14

Based on Scripture did Mary remain a virgin her entire life? The answer is that the Bible says enough to know she didn’t.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Daily dose of doctrine shall continue

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mary is the sign, but you can’t see virginity, so it must be taught by holy church!

And is repeated in scripture!

matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

And we she must be perpetual virgin!

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great salvation in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

so even in heaven Mary is thee sign!
Since she is the sign and is in heaven her virginity is implied since the sign is that of a virgin!


Mary is the sign that Jesus is the messiah and divine, only God can have a virgin-mother!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Based on Scripture did Mary remain a virgin her entire life? The answer is that the Bible says enough to know she didn’t.

Where in the Bible?