Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

[Faith]

Only be church jn 10:16 founded by Christ on Peter matt 16:18-19 and the apostles Matt 18:18 and their successors Matt 23 acts 1
Humility and obedience are the virtues most forgotten and ignored, many who claim the name of Christ are not practicing His virtues

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth is revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles) Jude 1:3 then proposed by the church! Matt 28:19 gal 3:23

Christ and His church are one!

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Dan 2:44 Isa 2:2 Micah 4:1 fulfilled in matt 5:14

matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail
Matt 18:17 hear the truth from the church
1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Faith ascents & never protests or rebels!
Spiritual Pride protests & is always in rebellion

The nature of spiritual pride is rebellion!
Spiritual pride must protest, and must be right!

Christ and His one true church cannot be right or my self-righteous personal interpretation base on spiritual pride and private judgement must be wrong, and that is unacceptable!

Truth must be revealed by God, and taught by the church, proposed for our belief, we must be instructed!
Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 Lk 10:16 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42


Nature of doctrine:

Truth or doctrine MUST be Revealed by God And Proposed by the church for belief, not spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
Claim: “scripture alone”
It’s really just the ugly repugnant pride!
It’s no faith at all only spiritual pride and self-righteous private judgement!
They Hope in creatures not in God!

It is unlawful to refuse to accept a truth revealed by God!

Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth matters! It is revealed by God and therefore CANNOT be changed!
The church likewise is founded by Christ and therefore CANNOT be reformed!

Faith hope and charity! 1 cor 13:13
Three are eternal, and the greatest is charity!
“Faith alone”? Never faith, hope, & charity are inseparable!
If salvation was by faith alone then the greatest would be faith, but as even “all faith“ without charity avails nothing! 1 cor 13:2

Yes, that’s what the CHURCH teaches, but other churches teach something else, instead of posting these long posts quoting Scripture, just tell us where it says:

1. Mary remained a perpetual virgin, IN THOSE WORDS.

2. What the CC teaches is right about everything.

 

[Faith]

Highlight the word bible or trinity or rapture

Josiah, does the LCMS believe in the rapture?

 

[Josiah]

Yes, that’s what the CHURCH teaches, but other churches teach something else, instead of posting these long posts quoting Scripture, just tell us where it says:

1. Mary remained a perpetual virgin, IN THOSE WORDS.

2. What the CC teaches is right about everything.

Hope1960


Everyone knows that The Catholic Church teaches the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. We KNOW that. All churches teach stuff. But our brother's claim is that "Scripture clearly states" that. Then he has gone to remarkable lengths to prove it does not. Gotta wonder why he does that (on all his topics!). Beats us over the head with "look, I'm wrong!" Endlessly.

And all we former Catholics (at least) know that Catholics are told by The Catholic Church that they are to swallow whole WHATEVER it itself tells them cuz it itself (now) does. CCC 85, 87, etc., etc. It points them to ONE exclusive Authority, Inerrant Teacher, Voice of Jesus Himself.... itself. And some do that. And no one here disputes their doing so. But again, the point is not "My church tells me" but the claim "Scripture clearly states that."

Yeah, sometimes I encounter a fundamentalist Catholic... and remember why I left that church.



On AUTHORITY click here: Christianity, Authority and Individualism

On MARY click here: Mary




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[Lamb]

Josiah, does the LCMS believe in the rapture?

The LCMS does not believe in the type of rapture that the Left Behind promotes. The word rapture is actually in the bible but it's not where people get left behind. When Jesus comes again, we will all be caught up in the air with him.

Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

Frequently asked questions about LCMS doctrine.

www.lcms.org

The English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin translation of the verb "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 (rapiemur).


Lutherans certainly believe what Paul teaches in this passage, namely, that those who are still living on earth when Christ returns visibly on the last day "will be caught up" ("raptured") together with "the dead in Christ" to "meet the Lord in the air."

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”


Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

where the Holy spirit enter and conceived NO MAN MAY ENTER OR CONCEIVE!

sound biblical principle

 

[Lanman87]

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”


Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

where the Holy spirit enter and conceived NO MAN MAY ENTER OR CONCEIVE!

sound biblical principle

Psalm 69:8
I have become a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my mother's sons.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

 

[Josiah]

Song of Solomon 4:12

Again, your proof that you are wrong: Scripture does NOT "clearly state" that Mary died a virgin - as you claim. Your claim is false, it's wrong. If anyone here didn't know that already, you've proven it.

Again, you prove that Scripture never says Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. She was a virgin at the birth of Our Lord (as everyone here agrees and as Scripture states) but NOTHING about after that. As you keep proving.

But, brother, seriously, you've already proven this. Over and over and over and over and over. It's getting to the point where you are hitting us over the head with it. Enough. We get it. You are wrong... we know.


A blesses Advent season to you and yours...


Josiah




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[Lanman87]

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

Thank you for proving my point. It is easy to take a single verse out of scripture and make it say what you want it to say.

Song of Solomon has nothing to do with Mary. SOS 4 in the husband longing for physical intimacy with his bride. 4:12 is about the exclusiveness of her love and desire for him. As the husband he is the only one allowed in her "garden".

The NLT translate 4:12 this way:

You are my private garden, my treasure, my bride,
a secluded spring, a hidden fountain.


If you are going to say that SOS 4:12 is about Mary then you also have to say the rest of the chapter is about Mary.

Is this how you feel about Mary?

Your breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
6 Until the day breaks
and the shadows flee,
I will go to the mountain of myrrh
and to the hill of incense.
7 You are altogether beautiful, my darling;
there is no flaw in you.



Ezek 44:2 is not about Mary. To understand this particular verse you have to go back toe Ezek 39:25 where God declares that he will restore the people of Israel. The rest of the book is a long vision of what will happen after Israel has been fully restored. Part of this prophecy is the rebuilding of the Temple, the restoration of the Levitical Priesthood, and the division of the land among the 12 Tribes of Israel.

There is a lot of differing opinions on what all of this means.

Some say that this has not yet happened and when the Temple is rebuilt it will usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ. When that happens then Christ will enter the Temple and nobody will be able to enter the Temple through the East Gate.

Others say that Ezek's vision is symbolic and is a long metaphor about the reconciliation of mankind to God in terms ancient Israel would understand.

Either way, there is no reason to believe Ezek 44:2 is about Mary, except in the imaginations of Catholic Theologians who are looking for any way possible to show the Marian Dogmas are true.

 

[Lanman87]

where the Holy spirit enter and conceived NO MAN MAY ENTER OR CONCEIVE!

Then I guess no Christians can have normal marriage relations and have children. The Holy Spirit enters into and lives in all Christians. It is the Holy Spirit who conceives our new Birth and makes us alive in Christ.

Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you 2 Tim 1:14

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Again, your proof that you are wrong: Scripture does NOT "clearly state" that Mary died a virgin - as you claim. Your claim is false, it's wrong. If anyone here didn't know that already, you've proven it.

Again, you prove that Scripture never says Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin. She was a virgin at the birth of Our Lord (as everyone here agrees and as Scripture states) but NOTHING about after that. As you keep proving.

But, brother, seriously, you've already proven this. Over and over and over and over and over. It's getting to the point where you are hitting us over the head with it. Enough. We get it. You are wrong... we know.


A blesses Advent season to you and yours...


Josiah




.

Thank you for proving my point. It is easy to take a single verse out of scripture and make it say what you want it to say.

Song of Solomon has nothing to do with Mary. SOS 4 in the husband longing for physical intimacy with his bride. 4:12 is about the exclusiveness of her love and desire for him. As the husband he is the only one allowed in her "garden".

The NLT translate 4:12 this way:

You are my private garden, my treasure, my bride,
a secluded spring, a hidden fountain.


If you are going to say that SOS 4:12 is about Mary then you also have to say the rest of the chapter is about Mary.

Is this how you feel about Mary?

Your breasts are like two fawns,
like twin fawns of a gazelle
that browse among the lilies.
6 Until the day breaks
and the shadows flee,
I will go to the mountain of myrrh
and to the hill of incense.
7 You are altogether beautiful, my darling;
there is no flaw in you.



Ezek 44:2 is not about Mary. To understand this particular verse you have to go back toe Ezek 39:25 where God declares that he will restore the people of Israel. The rest of the book is a long vision of what will happen after Israel has been fully restored. Part of this prophecy is the rebuilding of the Temple, the restoration of the Levitical Priesthood, and the division of the land among the 12 Tribes of Israel.

There is a lot of differing opinions on what all of this means.

Some say that this has not yet happened and when the Temple is rebuilt it will usher in the 1000 year reign of Christ. When that happens then Christ will enter the Temple and nobody will be able to enter the Temple through the East Gate.

Others say that Ezek's vision is symbolic and is a long metaphor about the reconciliation of mankind to God in terms ancient Israel would understand.

Either way, there is no reason to believe Ezek 44:2 is about Mary, except in the imaginations of Catholic Theologians who are looking for any way possible to show the Marian Dogmas are true.

There are no biblical principle! Ok

sos is not about husband and wife but Christ the bridegroom and his bride the savior and the soul
And refers to Mary immaculate perpetual virgin mother of God and mother of our salvation

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Then I guess no Christians can have normal marriage relations and have children. The Holy Spirit enters into and lives in all Christians. It is the Holy Spirit who conceives our new Birth and makes us alive in Christ.

Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you 2 Tim 1:14

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Romans 8:11

Youre body is the temple of the HS
1 cor 6:19

rom 6:13

 

[Lanman87]

sos is not about husband and wife but Christ the bridegroom and his bride the savior and the soul
And refers to Mary immaculate perpetual virgin mother of God and mother of our salvation

So you are good with Sexual imagery being about Mary? That is ironic sense you don't believe she had sex.

Youre body is the temple of the HS
1 cor 6:19

rom 6:13

Agreed, all who are In Christ are Temples of the Holy Spirit who lives and dwells in us. We are all consecrated and set apart for worship and to do the work of God.

 

[Castle Church]

sos is not about husband and wife but Christ the bridegroom and his bride the savior and the soul
And refers to Mary immaculate perpetual virgin mother of God and mother of our salvation

No, it really is not about Mary. Taking things out of context to fit a Doctrine or Dogma only weakens an argument and makes further statements suspect.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

 

[Lanman87]

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Again, taken one verse that has nothing to do with Mary or the incarnation and trying to shoehorn it into Mariology.

This verse is specifically about the nation of Israel and is a rhetorical question. The answer to the question "Shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb"? is No, God will not do that, instead He will bless Israel. The womb will be open and Jerusalem will rejoice.

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?”
says the Lord;
“shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?”
says your God.

10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice with her in joy,
all you who mourn over her;
11 that you may nurse and be satisfied
from her consoling breast;
that you may drink deeply with delight
from her glorious abundance.” Isaiah 66:8-11 ESV

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Again, taken one verse that has nothing to do with Mary or the incarnation and trying to shoehorn it into Mariology.

This verse is specifically about the nation of Israel and is a rhetorical question. The answer to the question "Shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb"? is No, God will not do that, instead He will bless Israel. The womb will be open and Jerusalem will rejoice.

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?”
says the Lord;
“shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?”
says your God.

10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice with her in joy,
all you who mourn over her;
11 that you may nurse and be satisfied
from her consoling breast;
that you may drink deeply with delight
from her glorious abundance.” Isaiah 66:8-11 ESV

Refers to Mary bringing our savior
The mother of our salvation

 

[Josiah]

Isa 66:9

You persist in your (never-ending) work of proving you are wrong... your claim is false.

You claim that "Scripture clearly states that Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin" and continue to prove it does no such thing. Your claim is false, you are wrong, you insist on proving - over and over and over and over - that your church's dogma is not stated in Scripture.

Thank you for doing that BUT you really don't need to go on. WE GET IT. How often must you prove this? It's getting down right alloying. And of course only serves to encourage the community here to ignore you since you admit you are wrong - but persist in the thing you have proven is false.





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[Lanman87]

Refers to Mary bringing our savior
The mother of our salvation

Instead of just repeating the same thing, why don't you tell me why I am wrong and you are right. "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument.

 

[tango]

Instead of just repeating the same thing, why don't you tell me why I am wrong and you are right. "Because I say so" isn't a valid argument.

"You are wrong and I am right. Neener neener."

I think that about sums up the argument on one side of this discussion. Time for me to unsubscribe from this thread....