Limited Revealation

prism

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If God desires all to be saved why does He reveal truths to only some?

Matthew 13:10-11 NASB95
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" [11] Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
 

Messy

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If God desires all to be saved why does He reveal truths to only some?

Matthew 13:10-11 NASB95
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" [11] Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
He didn't desire them to be saved. They went too far. First He stretched out His arms to them, but when they told Him to not come near them (Isaiah) He didn't want them to get saved. He knew what was in man. But this was about the pharisees, just like 1 Timothy says pray for all men, cause God wants everyone saved, yet James says don't pray for those who sin unto death. They hardened their heart, sinned against the Spirit. Then He doesn't even want them to see.
He resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Also God is not a respecter of persons, so you cant use this and say neighbour Jan who doesnt hurt a fly is not chosen and neighbour Henk is chosen or: nobody knows if you're chosen, so maybe you're not. That's false teaching. They say that in extreme Dutch reformed churches. Those people believe, go to church and still doubt if they're chosen.
 

Albion

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It's not a matter of some people being saved while others are not eligible. Rather, it's about the readiness of different groups to hear of the truths Jesus had to reveal.

To his closest followers, those who were open and didn't feature that they knew more than Jesus, it was given for them to know certain things about the kingdom. But for other Jews, those who were the leaders and presumed experts in matters religious, receiving the same enlightenment from Him, and in the same way, was not something that could happen.
 

prism

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He didn't desire them to be saved. They went too far.
I was referring to this verse...

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 

Messy

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I was referring to this verse...

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Yes and that text also says pray for all man, but like with everything the Bible also says the opposite.
Matthew 13
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’

Isaiah 65
I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
4 Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of [a]abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These [b]are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.
6 “Behold, it is written before Me:
I will not keep silence, but will repay—
Even repay into their bosom—
7 Your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together,”
Says the Lord,
“Who have burned incense on the mountains
And blasphemed Me on the hills;
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”
8 Thus says the Lord:

“As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.
11 “But you are those who forsake the Lord,
Who forget My holy mountain,
Who prepare a table for [c]Gad,
And who furnish a drink offering for [d]Meni.
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight.”

Oh it was John, not James:

1 John 5:16-17


16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
 

prism

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Yes and that text also says pray for all man, but like with everything the Bible also says the opposite.
That would be contradictory and too confusing, who would know what to believe?
 

Messy

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That would be contradictory and too confusing, who would know what to believe?
Why? 1 Timothy says pray for everyone cause God wants to save everyone. That's just general, maybe assuming they already know that Jesus didnt pray for Judas or blaspheming pharisees.
 

Lees

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If God desires all to be saved why does He reveal truths to only some?

Matthew 13:10-11 NASB95
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" [11] Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
I was referring to this verse...

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
That would be contradictory and too confusing, who would know what to believe?

(Matt. 13:10-11) does not support your question. All you have to do is read the Scripture that has gone before that to have your answer. Especially (Matt. 12)

Your question goes back to the elect of God. Only there can you find an answer.

You cannot question God's desire for all men to be saved because He gave Jesus Christ who died for all. (2 Cor. 5:14)

Your use of the term 'limited revelation' must apply to God's revealing, by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to the individual, thereby saving the individual. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8) (John 6:37,44)

So, if Christ died for all, then why does God not reveal Him to all? The only answer that satisfies me is, because not all are of God. In other words, God knows those who are His from the day of their birth into this world, and even before that. And it is those who are His that He reveals Himself to.

Lees
 

Messy

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If God desires all to be saved why does He reveal truths to only some?

Matthew 13:10-11 NASB95
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" [11] Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The verses after it explain it.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”


They were not children with a soft heart. If so they would have all understood it and accepted Him, but their parents hardened their own hearts and kept them away from Him, which I always find very sad.

If a family member doesn't understand it I pray that God opens their eyes, bind the demons that blind them, ask God to open their ears, soften their heart and then eventually they get saved. A guy who preached once said: You can get the stones out of the garden. You can water it. You can get rid of the weeds. But just look at how they talked to Jesus. Can't remember where I read it in the Bible but it was unbelievable, so arrogant. It's no use to pray for such people. They chose to harden their hearts themselves and eventually God gives them over. They were not heathens who just didnt believe God existed. They knew He was real and they were waiting for Jesus to do a miracle.
 

prism

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Why? 1 Timothy says pray for everyone cause God wants to save everyone. That's just general, maybe assuming they already know that Jesus didnt pray for Judas or blaspheming pharisees.
Why? Because I was responding to the part where you said in post#5, 'but like with everything the Bible also says the opposite'.
So I replied 'that would be contradictory and confusing'.
 

prism

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Your use of the term 'limited revelation' must apply to God's revealing, by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, to the individual, thereby saving the individual. (Matt. 16:17) (Eph. 2:8) (John 6:37,44)
Exactly my point! ... saving the individual, while not revealing Jesus Christ as the Son of God to others.
 

prism

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The verses after it explain it.

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”


They were not children with a soft heart. If so they would have all understood it and accepted Him, but their parents hardened their own hearts and kept them away from Him, which I always find very sad.
So some are born less sinful and depraved than others, or some are born more godly?
 

Messy

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So some are born less sinful and depraved than others, or some are born more godly?
No they become more evil by chosing to obey their flesh/satan/sin. Cain could say no to killing his brother, but he didn't want to listen. No baby has a hard heart. Any aborted child goes to heaven. It becomes hard when they refuse to listen for too long.

Hebrews 3:8-15
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,


1 Timothy 4
Now the Spirit [a]expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

Jesus said that the pharisees made a guy worse than them:
Matthew 23:15 NKJV
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 19
14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Proverbs 23:13-14
13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from [a]hell.

No wonder they do so much effort these days to stop parents from correcting their children.
 
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Messy

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Why? Because I was responding to the part where you said in post#5, 'but like with everything the Bible also says the opposite'.
So I replied 'that would be contradictory and confusing'.

Paradoxes in Scripture Are Concurrent Truths​

A paradox is not the same as a contradiction. It is two truths that are seemingly contradictory, but in reality are not. We may not be able to resolve the statements, but the statements are true nevertheless. In theology, this has also been called, “concurrence.” Concurrence means “running together.” Two statements concur, or work together, without being contradictory.

 

Lees

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Exactly my point! ... saving the individual, while not revealing Jesus Christ as the Son of God to others.
So some are born less sinful and depraved than others, or some are born more godly?

All are born just the same in Adam. Sinful.

It's my opinion that what distinguises them, as to God's knowledge, is who are they of. Are they of God or Satan. We are talking about God's knowledge here, as that is something we don't know. Thus we present the Gospel to all and let God do the saving work. But we can know that this is a truth.

When Cain was born to Adam and Eve, they thought he was from God. (Gen. 4:1). But he wasn't. His father was Satan. (1 John 3:12) "...Cain, who was of that wicked one...."

The Pharisees, who opposed Jesus, claimed God as their Father. (John 8:41) But Jesus said to them, "Ye do the deeds of your father...." (8:41) And He then said, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God...." (8:42) And He further states, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." (8:44)

And it is this that determines who respond to the Gospel. They who are not of God cannot hear. They who are of God, do hear. (John 8:43) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

God reveals Himself to those who are His.

Lees
 

Messy

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All are born just the same in Adam. Sinful.

It's my opinion that what distinguises them, as to God's knowledge, is who are they of. Are they of God or Satan. We are talking about God's knowledge here, as that is something we don't know. Thus we present the Gospel to all and let God do the saving work. But we can know that this is a truth.

When Cain was born to Adam and Eve, they thought he was from God. (Gen. 4:1). But he wasn't. His father was Satan. (1 John 3:12) "...Cain, who was of that wicked one...."

The Pharisees, who opposed Jesus, claimed God as their Father. (John 8:41) But Jesus said to them, "Ye do the deeds of your father...." (8:41) And He then said, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God...." (8:42) And He further states, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." (8:44)

And it is this that determines who respond to the Gospel. They who are not of God cannot hear. They who are of God, do hear. (John 8:43) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

God reveals Himself to those who are His.

Lees
Yeah it's weird. You cannot just explain it by their upbringing.
It looks like the seed was already bad. The enemy who sows tares.
I think because Adam and Eve sinned they became one with satan and could get a good spiritual kid and a bad kid, from the flesh, but also because sin still reigned.
During the 1000 year peace they don't get such kids:
Isaiah 65:23
They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble

The complete Jewish Bible:
23 They will not toil in vain or raise children to be destroyed, for they are the seed blessed by ADONAI; and their offspring with them.
 
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prism

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No they become more evil by chosing to obey their flesh/satan/sin.
If they 'become more evil' to start with, doesn't that mean they have a certain amount of evil to begin with?
So the question would be, 'are some born more evil (or sinful), than others?
 

prism

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Paradoxes in Scripture Are Concurrent Truths​

A paradox is not the same as a contradiction. It is two truths that are seemingly contradictory, but in reality are not. We may not be able to resolve the statements, but the statements are true nevertheless. In theology, this has also been called, “concurrence.” Concurrence means “running together.” Two statements concur, or work together, without being contradictory.

Yes, Don Stewart, I remember him and his brother John Stewart sub hosts of the Bible Answer man with Walter Martin.
His brother John went over to the Calvinistic camp while Don, stayed with Calvary Chapel's, interesting.
Perhaps I should have said, "God doesn't break the law of non contradiction. 'A' can't be 'A' and non 'A' at the same time
 

prism

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All are born just the same in Adam. Sinful.
agreed
When Cain was born to Adam and Eve, they thought he was from God. (Gen. 4:1). But he wasn't. His father was Satan.(1 John 3:12) "...Cain, who was of that wicked one...."
John is talking about his nature (satan's). Cain's father was Adam, not satan.
It's my opinion that what distinguises them, as to God's knowledge, is who are they of. Are they of God or Satan. We are talking about God's knowledge here, as that is something we don't know. Thus we present the Gospel to all and let God do the saving work. But we can know that this is a truth.
We are of God through the new birth, otherwise we retain the nature of satan.
The Pharisees, who opposed Jesus, claimed God as their Father. (John 8:41) But Jesus said to them, "Ye do the deeds of your father...." (8:41) And He then said, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God...." (8:42) And He further states, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." (8:44)
Again, he was speaking of their fallen nature, not their natural birth.
And it is this that determines who respond to the Gospel. They who are not of God cannot hear. They who are of God, do hear. (John 8:43) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

God reveals Himself to those who are His.
We are all born children of wrath...

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

but through the new birth, has quickened us...

Ephesians 2:5 KJV
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I just hope you are not getting entangled with the 'Serpent-Seed' teaching.
 

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If they 'become more evil' to start with, doesn't that mean they have a certain amount of evil to begin with?
So the question would be, 'are some born more evil (or sinful), than others?
Everyone gets born with a sinful nature but a baby can't sin yet. They're just not capable of sinning.
I don't know if they are and I have no idea how that can be. I know that text that an enemy did that, but what did the enemy do? Sow false teaching while the church slept and create tares like that or take for instance the ac, I don't think that with great nurture and christian influence he would turn out better. I have no idea.
 
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