Law can't show the Savior

TurtleHare

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MoreCoffee has stated in that sinless thread that he doesn't see any distinction between law and gospel so here is a new thread that addresses such an important piece of the distinction between Law and Gospel (not that there is only one because there is a nice list Josiah has). The Law can't show the Savior. As much as people want to follow the Law it won't lead them to be given the Savior, you all know him, the guy who died for you on that cross. Only the Gospel gives us a Savior which is a mighty disctinction in itself.
 

Josiah

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MoreCoffee has stated in that sinless thread that he doesn't see any distinction between law and gospel so here is a new thread that addresses such an important piece of the distinction between Law and Gospel (not that there is only one because there is a nice list Josiah has). The Law can't show the Savior. As much as people want to follow the Law it won't lead them to be given the Savior, you all know him, the guy who died for you on that cross. Only the Gospel gives us a Savior which is a mighty disctinction in itself.


Absolutely.


If permitted to fully stand, the Law's first and foremost purpose (and its sole one in narrow justification) is to condemn, to kill, to crush, to show us how entirely, completely, absolutely helpless we are, how completely deserving of hell we are. Of course, IF it's watered down to near nothing, IF it is stripped of any significance or meaning, IF it's little more than "well, try to MEAN well", IF it's nothing more than "Try - even if you fail" then it can be embraced as the ladder that means we climb into heaven - and thus I have no need of a Savior (a little help maybe.... someone to pave the way and open the door perhaps... but no Savior), no need for mercy, no need for all the Christianity stuff (that's for losers, that's for the crippled, that's for sinners)... we can see Satan's wisdom in looking away from the Cross and into the mirror at the wonderful, empowered, successful ME (who renders Jesus not much.... after all, who needs a Savior when I got me?)

Of course, in that case, the Gospel disappears entirely (no need for it). Jesus fades into nothingness (oh... maybe one of a plethora of HELPERS.... maybe a possibility-maker.... but certainly not the Savior (or even A Savior)....


Merry Christmas (on this Sixth Day of Christmas)


- Josiah
 

Lamb

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Romans 7:7 I would not have come to know sin except through the Law.

The Law shows us our sin.

The Gospel shows us the Savior.

Philippians 2:5-11 “Christ Jesus: Who, being in very natureGod, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very natureof a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
 

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Hm it shows the need of a Savior and the blood offerings point to Christ.
 

MoreCoffee

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MoreCoffee has stated in that sinless thread that he doesn't see any distinction between law and gospel so here is a new thread that addresses such an important piece of the distinction between Law and Gospel (not that there is only one because there is a nice list Josiah has). The Law can't show the Savior. As much as people want to follow the Law it won't lead them to be given the Savior, you all know him, the guy who died for you on that cross. Only the Gospel gives us a Savior which is a mighty disctinction in itself.

MoreCoffee made no such statement and it is wicked of you to say that MoreCoffee did.

What MoreCoffee in fact said is this:
Can't say I see a "law-gospel" dichotomy in the holy scriptures. I see the law and the gospel as existing together, one as a covenant that came to an end yet whose moral teaching is lasting and the other as eternal and whose gifts are eternal.
And this:
When we say distinction we aren't saying God isn't using only one. He uses both Law and Gospel but each have their purpose and scripture is clear on this.

Is it merely a distinction that you make? It seems far more than mere distinction.

The Lord Jesus Christ says that The law and the prophets were until John. Since then, the kingdom of God is being evangelized, and everyone acts with violence toward it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to fall away. (Luke 16:16-17) That being so we ought not to think of the law as a system competing with the gospel in the world today. And while it is true that some seek to place themselves under the law and thus seek to be its servants they cannot do it because the law was until John (the Baptist) and now it is only the Kingdom with which a man or a woman must be reconciled. The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom in which the law has no continuing place so even though the lessons of the law are applicable the letter is no longer applicable - there being no priests and temple in which to perform its rituals of cleansing nor any nation or earthly king to administer its civil laws. Yet not one dot of the law has fallen away, all that it demands remains intact and any who seek to establish their own worthiness to enter God's presence must be completely clean according to the law but all who rely on Christ for their advocate and the Holy Spirit as their help will find a different way into the presence of God and it is a way in which their own worthiness is not their own alone but the worthiness of Christ in them which permeates every fibre of their being. Such ones are washed in the blood of the Lamb [of God] and need fear no condemnation from vengeful accusers pointing to their failings with regard to the law.
 
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Lamb

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Rens, having a need for a Savior isn't the same as being shown the Savior. The blood sacrifices did not show the Savior either. They were still about the Law and paved the way until the Savior was shown (and then died causing all other sacrifices to be unnecessary).

MC, the verse does not show that the Law shows us the Savior. It does show that there is a distinction between Law and Gospel.
 

MoreCoffee

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...
MC, the verse does not show that the Law shows us the Savior. It does show that there is a distinction between Law and Gospel.

This thread and its title arise from misrepresenting what MoreCoffee wrote in another thread. MoreCoffee said nothing about the law showing the saviour or not showing the saviour. MoreCoffee has stated that there is a distinction by observing what the distinction is. The law is passed because its priests and temple are no longer present and functioning. A new way was opened into the presence of God by the body (and blood) of Christ. (Heb 10:19-22)
 

TheVeryEnd

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Then what Gospel was Abraham obeying?

Galations 3
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
 

Tigger

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Then what Gospel was Abraham obeying?

Galations 3
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
There is only one Gospel Galatians 1:8
 

MoreCoffee

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There is only one Gospel Galatians 1:8

Apparently the gospel preached to Abraham and mentioned in Galatians 3:8 is the same gospel mentioned in Galatians 1:8.

Gal 3:7-9* Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

(Cambridge Bible)* Galatians 3:7
Know ye] Better indic. ‘Ye know then’. So in Php 4:15, where the punctuation in some copies of A.V. perverts the sense.
they which are of faith] This form of expression is common in Classical Greek. It means, ‘they who come from, and so belong to’; especially of persons who range themselves as members of a party or adherents of a cause. The antithesis to ‘those who are of faith’ is ‘those who are of the Law’, Rom 2:8, or ‘of the works of the Law’, Gal 3:10.

the same] Rather, these, and none others.
the children of Abraham] This was the boast of the Jews, “We have Abraham to our father”, Joh 8:39: comp. Mat 3:9. St Paul here adopts the same argument which our Lord used, “If ye were the children of Abraham, ye would do the works of Abraham’. He exercised faith in the word and promise of God. They alone ‘who have obtained like precious faith’ are the true sons of Abraham.

*(8)* And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

(Cambridge Bible)* Galatians 3:8
St Paul’s appeal here and elsewhere to the authority of the O.T. as the unerring, irreversible decision is very instructive. This authority depends on an inspiration which is verbal, though not mechanical. The quotation combines a reference to two distinct promises, that in Gen 12:3, “And in thee shall the tribes of the earth be blessed”; and in Gen 18:18, “And all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him”. The true seed (children) of Abraham are ‘they which are of faith’—not his natural descendants, as such, but all who, whether Jews or Gentiles, “walk in the footsteps of the faith which Abraham had in uncircumcision”.
the scripture, foreseeing] The Scripture is here personified, as in Gal 3:22. It of course means the Holy Ghost, by Whose inspiration the passage was written. In the Epistle to the Hebrews the usual formula is, ‘As the Holy Ghost saith’. Such forms of expression as ‘the Scripture said’, were common in the Rabbinic writers.
The connexion of this verse with what precedes is this:—Abraham was justified by faith, and they who are of faith are his children. But on the authority of the same Scripture we know that this filial relationship is not limited to his natural descendants, for it was promised that in him all nations should be blessed.
would justify] Pres. tense, ‘justifieth’, by an eternal law of His moral government.
the heathen] Better, ‘the Gentiles’.
preached before the gospel] Proclaimed the good tidings of justification by faith for all who believe. This announcement was made before, ‘a Gospel before Gospel times’, Bengel. Others explain it a Gospel antecedent not only to the Law, but to the institution of circumcision, Rom 4:11.
in thee] This is supposed by some to mean “as their spiritual progenitor”. Of course there is no reference to a transmitted and inherited faith. Dr Jowett’s explanation is undoubtedly right, “in thee, by anticipation”, that is, “as the progenitor of the Messiah” (Bengel). The blessing (justification) comes to man only from the atoning death and imputed merit of Christ. It was apprehended by faith in the case of Abraham; it is so apprehended by each one of his spiritual descendants. Thus, Gal 3:9, they that are of faith (note Gal 3:7) are blessed with faithful Abraham.

*(9)* So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

(Cambridge Bible)* Galatians 3:9
faithful] The original word, like its English equivalent, may mean either trustworthy or trusting, deserving confidence or exercising it. In the former sense it occurs 1Co 1:9; 1Co 4:2. In the latter (which is the sense here), Joh 20:27, where it is rendered ‘believing’. The context will determine which meaning is to be assigned to it. A similar ambiguity attaches to such English words as pitiful, mournful, hopeful.
 

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Law and gospel.
Sin and repentance .
One proves the guilt.
The other calls to repentance unto salvation.

Some say Jesus is the word become flesh. (He is) then the some unwittingly (I hope)imply the law of God spoken forth from God is not the word of God. God is love. Thou shalt love -etc.

I can only be troubled that some would be so entrenched in a singular doctrinal stance that they cannot see Christ Jesus in the law when both are "the word ".
 

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The Law paves way for the Savior but the Gospel gives us the Savior. The Law can't do that for you.
 

TurtleHare

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MoreCoffee made no such statement and it is wicked of you to say that MoreCoffee did.

What MoreCoffee in fact said is this:

And this:

Excuse me? You didn't say that you didn't see a Distinction between Law and Gospel? Could you have used a different word than distinction then since you are ever so against any type of difference that the law and gospel have and do for mankind?
 

MoreCoffee

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Excuse me? You didn't say that you didn't see a Distinction between Law and Gospel? Could you have used a different word than distinction then since you are ever so against any type of difference that the law and gospel have and do for mankind?

I said this:
Can't say I see a "law-gospel" dichotomy in the holy scriptures. I see the law and the gospel as existing together, one as a covenant that came to an end yet whose moral teaching is lasting and the other as eternal and whose gifts are eternal.
And this:
When we say distinction we aren't saying God isn't using only one. He uses both Law and Gospel but each have their purpose and scripture is clear on this.

Is it merely a distinction that you make? It seems far more than mere distinction.

The Lord Jesus Christ says that The law and the prophets were until John. Since then, the kingdom of God is being evangelized, and everyone acts with violence toward it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to fall away. (Luke 16:16-17) That being so we ought not to think of the law as a system competing with the gospel in the world today. And while it is true that some seek to place themselves under the law and thus seek to be its servants they cannot do it because the law was until John (the Baptist) and now it is only the Kingdom with which a man or a woman must be reconciled. The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom in which the law has no continuing place so even though the lessons of the law are applicable the letter is no longer applicable - there being no priests and temple in which to perform its rituals of cleansing nor any nation or earthly king to administer its civil laws. Yet not one dot of the law has fallen away, all that it demands remains intact and any who seek to establish their own worthiness to enter God's presence must be completely clean according to the law but all who rely on Christ for their advocate and the Holy Spirit as their help will find a different way into the presence of God and it is a way in which their own worthiness is not their own alone but the worthiness of Christ in them which permeates every fibre of their being. Such ones are washed in the blood of the Lamb [of God] and need fear no condemnation from vengeful accusers pointing to their failings with regard to the law.
 
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