JW baptism Vs Catholic baptism (help)

[Andrew]

My sister was raised Catholic, her now divorced husband was raised Jehovah's Witness, neither are practising, they have a daughter together who is 5 years old now and isn't baptised.
Now the dilemma... We (our side of the family) all want her to be baptised, my Grandmother (a strict Catholic) never got the chance to see her great granddaughter baptised, something she prayed for.
My parents urge my sister to go and get her baptised but she says "he (her ex) will never go for that" and is very against it.
If my niece had a choice I am willing to bet that she would not go for the JW baptism because apparently you can no longer celebrate holidays or birthdays and well, she is spoiled so she won't go for that (just thinking like a kid would, honestly)...
He and his family are JW BUT like I said they don't even practice it, they still do birthdays and holidays although I heard they do refuse blood transfusions.
He seems to get the final say and hinders her baptism which I totally don't understand, I mean if they were still married this would be a difficult obstacle to work through but they are divorced so...
Anyway I searched JW baptism because I was curious.
You must answer 80 questions and be judged by three elders before you can get baptised into the 'organization'... hmmmmmm
This video may help explain it better
https://youtu.be/WnmdaYvLcVY

Now WE (all here at CH) may have our differences but we are fully united together in the Body of Christ, I would accept any of your baptisms whether it be in the Father Son and Holy Spirit or in the Name of Jesus Christ, but to answer 80 questions and then be judged and submitting yourself to the organization I whole heartedly object to.
She's only 5, the best comfort I can offer my parents and family is that according to Catholic reform, non-baptised infants (child?) who pass on are entrusted into the loving mercy of God, reversing the 800 year tradition of teaching otherwise.

Thoughts and ideas that I could share with my sister and family?

Note: please no quarreling about Christian baptism as in who is right or who is wrong, just looking for ways to promote a Christian baptism in general against a cult like "baptism" which is no baptism at all.

Thanks

 

[Albion]

Your closing note confuses me somewhat because you acknowledge that the JWs do not believe in the Trinity or the divinity of Christ, meaning that the validity of their baptisms would be in question with almost every other church, the Catholic Church included. But it is true that the Catholic Church no longer teaches Limbo as the destination of unbaptized children under age 6. If that fact is sufficient to put your family at ease, then it is, but I don't see how that alone provides much of a solution. There may not be one.

 

[Arsenios]

Pray for your Mother, the Grandmother of the child...

And pray for your sister, her mother...

I suspect that the prayers of your mother, a devout Catholic, after her repose, will avail that child much...

And will avail for you and your sister as well...

Your sister is not a practicing Catholic...

She is the mother of her child...

She HAS custody...

She CAN Baptize her child...

She does not want to stir up her ex and family...

She needs to want to stir him and his family up...

I would start out every conversation with the question:
"Have you Baptized your daughter yet?"
And offer to help by contacting the Priest...
Perhaps a clandestine sprinkling Baptism??


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Your closing note confuses me somewhat because you acknowledge that the JWs do not believe in the Trinity or the divinity of Christ, meaning that the validity of their baptisms would be in question with almost every other church, the Catholic Church included. But it is true that the Catholic Church no longer teaches Limbo as the destination of unbaptized children under age 6. If that fact is sufficient to put your family at ease, then it is, but I don't see how that alone provides much of a solution. There may not be one.

I don't consider JW baptism as baptism... am I wrong? You are being baptised into the Jehovah's Witness 'organization', they refer to the Holy Spirit as the JW organization. In other words you are baptised in the name of the Father, Son and the organization.
The note was just me trying to prevent a straying off the topic by debating if baptism is a immersion or by spoon, I am not worried about that, I am looking to discuss ways to persuade my sister to do what she feels is her moral duty and get her daughter baptised OPPOSED to her being baptised (perhaps in a few years) into the JW cult.
Baptism is something one is buried into it, its good to be grounded in it for yes the obvious reason, but later down the road if she decides to get spiritual I would not wish her to fall back on her JW baptism to look for God.
Here are some questions.
Is it wrong for someone to be baptised into Christ if that persons father does not approve?
Is JW baptism a legit baptism into Christ?
Should we just let her father baptise her as JW and then her mother baptise her in the Catholic baptism later?

 

[Andrew]

Pray for your Mother, the Grandmother of the child...

And pray for your sister, her mother...

I suspect that the prayers of your mother, a devout Catholic, after her repose, will avail that child much...

And will avail for you and your sister as well...

Your sister is not a practicing Catholic...

She is the mother of her child...

She HAS custody...

She CAN Baptize her child...

She does not want to stir up her ex and family...

She needs to want to stir him and his family up...

I would start out every conversation with the question:
"Have you Baptized your daughter yet?"
And offer to help by contacting the Priest...
Perhaps a clandestine sprinkling Baptism??


Arsenios

They have joint custody, he is a very resentful fellow I personally never liked him, he is an instigator and he puts things in her head that "mommy broke up the family" and "she doesn't love you as much as daddy"... when she gets back from his stay she wont even hug her mom, she talks back and says that she wants to go back to daddy because you dont love me...
Its all very sad, the reason my sister divorced him is because she paid all the bills as well as buying things for the child and he made good money but he just bought expensive toys for himself, he wouldnt change so she left him.
Just to give you a background on how his 'elect' and 'chosen' true faith in Jehovah reflects his amazing character, it's so great that she must be baptised into the faith which is not faith at all, its a cult that believes that we can obtain utopia on earth by ourselves... meh... oh and you have to subscribe to the watch tower.

I thank you for the advise btw!
Very much appreciated

 

[Andrew]

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[Josiah]

I don't consider JW baptism as baptism... am I wrong?

As I understand it, GENERALLY, baptisms are accepted as "valid" as long as the church and officient are Trinitarian (affirming the Trinity). Generally, it doesn't matter whether that's Catholic or Baptist or Anglican or whatever, as long as their is a clear affirmation of the Trinity. Since the JW's deny the Trinity, I think most Christians would reject the validity of their "baptism."

You are being baptised into the Jehovah's Witness 'organization', they refer to the Holy Spirit as the JW organization. In other words you are baptised in the name of the Father, Son and the organization.

MOST denomination do not consider baptism to be a rite of joining a denomination... Some may see it as being embraced into the Family of God, the Body of Christ, the "church catholic" (Christian) but not a denomination. Exceptions are Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, LDS and JW - where there IS a sense of joining the denomination. That said, Christians typically gather into congregations (which may be denominational or non-denominational) and the community is glad to embrace and support the baptized person - but technically, the person isn't BY THAT an official member of the congregation (and certainly not the denomination to which the congregation belongs).

Is it wrong for someone to be baptised into Christ if that persons father does not approve?

THEOLOGICALLY, I'd hesitate to be dogmatic on that. But generally, baptism is not administered to minors without expressed parental authorization. This is because of the Commandment to "honor parents" (WE are to honor the parent/child relationship among others, too - not just ourselves) AND because typically the parents pledge some significant things - and if they won't do that, well... that's a problem.

Should we just let her father baptise her as JW and then her mother baptise her in the Catholic baptism later?

How about just the Catholic one, lol.....

The parents need to work this out. My wife was raised in a very conservative Reformed church, and I of course am now Lutheran. We determined to RESOLVE this BEFORE we became engaged - rejecting a 'mixed marriage' in part because of the impact upon our children. We discussed it at length... I sent to her church, she went to mine.... we spoke with her pastor and mine.... we considered other options (Presbyterian and a very conservative Anglican parish)... she decided to become Lutheran. We did not set a date for the wedding until she was Confirmed. BUT this is not what most couples do....

 

[Andrew]

As I understand it, GENERALLY, baptisms are accepted as "valid" as long as the church and officient are Trinitarian (affirming the Trinity). Generally, it doesn't matter whether that's Catholic or Baptist or Anglican or whatever, as long as their is a clear affirmation of the Trinity. Since the JW's deny the Trinity, I think most Christians would reject the validity of their "baptism."






MOST denomination do not consider baptism to be a rite of joining a denomination... Some may see it as being embraced into the Family of God, the Body of Christ, the "church catholic" (Christian) but not a denomination. Exceptions are Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, LDS and JW - where there IS a sense of joining the denomination. That said, Christians typically gather into congregations (which may be denominational or non-denominational) and the community is glad to embrace and support the baptized person - but technically, the person isn't BY THAT an official member of the congregation (and certainly not the denomination to which the congregation belongs).






THEOLOGICALLY, I'd hesitate to be dogmatic on that. But generally, baptism is not administered to minors without expressed parental authorization. This is because of the Commandment to "honor parents" (WE are to honor the parent/child relationship among others, too - not just ourselves) AND because typically the parents pledge some significant things - and if they won't do that, well... that's a problem.





How about just the Catholic one, lol.....

The parents need to work this out. My wife was raised in a very conservative Reformed church, and I of course am now Lutheran. We determined to RESOLVE this BEFORE we became engaged - rejecting a 'mixed marriage' in part because of the impact upon our children. We discussed it at length... I sent to her church, she went to mine.... we spoke with her pastor and mine.... we considered other options (Presbyterian and a very conservative Anglican parish)... she decided to become Lutheran. We did not set a date for the wedding until she was Confirmed. BUT this is not what most couples do....

I encourage a Catholic baptism for her, especially since my sister is not spiritually moved to consider any other baptism, I mean she probably has never gone to a baptist church so the Catholic church would be her go to for baptism.
If she did become baptist out of the blue I would also encourage baptism into that church.
Perhaps yes a few JW will become disciples of Christ and thus may not ask for another baptism and accept the one they got, if that's the case then they could hardly be a JW since JW teach you how to believe... Which is not the same as absolute belief... so they would no longer belong to the JW organization in Spirit.
He objects to her Catholic baptism or else it would have been done right away, he is saving her baptism to conjoin her to the JW 'organisation' which is a double standard..
My Mom baptised her herself in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... so I honestly believe that's valid enough.

 

[Andrew]

The parents need to work this out. My wife was raised in a very conservative Reformed church, and I of course am now Lutheran. We determined to RESOLVE this BEFORE we became engaged - rejecting a 'mixed marriage' in part because of the impact upon our children. We discussed it at length... I sent to her church, she went to mine.... we spoke with her pastor and mine.... we considered other options (Presbyterian and a very conservative Anglican parish)... she decided to become Lutheran. We did not set a date for the wedding until she was Confirmed. BUT this is not what most couples do....

That's absolutely wonderful how the two of you decided on settling on a specific church, after all she IS your soul mate, that's very important that you help each other in spiritual growth. Its not that norm which IS sad, this is why divorce is not unusual these days, the Spirit is ignored completely.

 

[Albion]

I encourage a Catholic baptism for her, especially since my sister is not spiritually moved to consider any other baptism, I mean she probably has never gone to a baptist church so the Catholic church would be her go to for baptism.
If she did become baptist out of the blue I would also encourage baptism into that church.

Which would be to renounce the Catholic baptism (and every other church that recognizes it, ...except of course for the Baptistic ones. Maybe that course of action poses some additional problems even if it solves some others).

Perhaps yes a few JW will become disciples of Christ and thus may not ask for another baptism and accept the one they got, if that's the case then they could hardly be a JW since JW teach you how to believe.

If and when a person in that situation changes churches, the church will decide, not the person. And they will decide that the JW baptism was null and void.

He objects to her Catholic baptism or else it would have been done right away, he is saving her baptism to conjoin her to the JW 'organisation' which is a double standard..

Yes. That is the big sticking point here IMHO.

My Mom baptised her herself in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit... so I honestly believe that's valid enough.

It is probably valid, but if membership in the Catholic Church or many others--and communicant status--were wanted, it would not be accepted.

 

[Andrew]

It is probably valid, but if membership in the Catholic Church or many others--and communicant status--were wanted, it would not be accepted.

The status should be non other than a proper baptism performed by a follower of Christ and in his name, the JW baptism is not a proper baptism for obvious reasons.
As far as I am concerned she was properly and biblically baptised, but yeah they want recognition from a church... maybe I could show them scripture and try to convince them that she is baptised by the authority of Christ.... hmmmm

 

[Albion]

The status should be non other than a proper baptism performed by a follower of Christ and in his name, the JW baptism is not a proper baptism for obvious reasons.
As far as I am concerned she was properly and biblically baptised, but yeah they want recognition from a church... maybe I could show them scripture and try to convince them that she is baptised by the authority of Christ.... hmmmm

You can try, but the response is almost certain to be, 'We would have to have a baptismal certificate in order to go ahead.'

The issue is not actually validity but certainty that such a baptism were actually performed and done using the proper form. Under the circumstances you have described, the usual procedure is for the priest to perform a conditional (re)baptism.

 

[Andrew]

You can try, but the response is almost certain to be, 'We would have to have a baptismal certificate in order to go ahead.'

The issue is not actually validity but certainty that such a baptism were actually performed and done using the proper form. Under the circumstances you have described, the usual procedure is for the priest to perform a conditional (re)baptism.

Well I don't care for a certificate made by man, if they do i'll just have to point to scripture...

..."And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things."
Matthew 21:23-27

Baptism comes from the authority of our Father in Heaven and the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ.