Jesus Christ, died for all

[atpollard]

So do you think that there are certain sinners whom Jesus did not die for?

Yup. Esau and Judas, to name two. (Rom 9:13; John 17:12)

Does the Bible say, for instance, that Christ only died for certain sinners and not for others?

Yup. (John 10:15; John 10:26)

And then did He help us to know which witches are which?

Yup. (Mat 7:16-20; 1 John 2:19)

Does that help? :rotfl:

 

[MennoSota]

John 18:37
Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”

 

[atpollard]

That is almost fair...

Sufficient for all...
Effective for all who are repenting...
All are capable of repenting...
Not all live repentance from evil...

The Calvinist view sees man as a billiard ball, dead and cold and incapable of anything other than evil...

The Orthodox view sees man as created in the Image of God...
We see God in every man, woman and child...
Even in the demonically possessed...

The Image of God is not lost in fallen man...
But the likeness sure is...
And this according to each person's deeds...
We have responsibility for our deeds...

Be they good or evil or some mixture...

Consciously turning away from evil is man's proper response to the Call of God unto repentance...

Normally, it occurs after that Call...

ymmv...


Arsenios

Satan and his demons were originally created in the image of angels of light, too. Image means nothing. It is all about the heart (inner being).

[Jhn 8:41-47 NIV]
41 You are doing the works of your own father." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

... It is easy to SAY that people are children of GOD.

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

... Jesus says that such words are not true for all men. Some are children of their father the Devil.

45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

... Jesus says that there IS A DIFFERENCE between those who belong to God and those who do not. Note the cause and effect, Jesus did not say that their refusal to hear prevented them from becoming children of God, Jesus said that the REAON they could not hear was BECAUSE they were not children of God. One is already a child of God or not a child of God before they hear. Children can and will hear. Those not God’s children cannot and will not hear.

That means that God’s ‘foreknew’ and ‘predestined’ plays a big part in being ‘called’ and ‘chosen’ and ‘justified’ and ‘glorified’.

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[TurtleHare]

In Numbers 21 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Let's compare this to Jesus and the cross, you see, Jesus was up on that cross and died and you see a bronze snake up on a pole and that was for all the people, not just some and then you can see that those who looked at the bronze snake were those who lived, those who didn't look didn't live. The ones who have faith to look to Jesus live and those who don't look to Jesus don't live and that's the personal side of the relationship.

 

[Andrew]

In Numbers 21 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Let's compare this to Jesus and the cross, you see, Jesus was up on that cross and died and you see a bronze snake up on a pole and that was for all the people, not just some and then you can see that those who looked at the bronze snake were those who lived, those who didn't look didn't live. The ones who have faith to look to Jesus live and those who don't look to Jesus don't live and that's the personal side of the relationship.

And those who look up toward Jesus and believe will be the Elect in Heaven

 

[MennoSota]

In Numbers 21 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Let's compare this to Jesus and the cross, you see, Jesus was up on that cross and died and you see a bronze snake up on a pole and that was for all the people, not just some and then you can see that those who looked at the bronze snake were those who lived, those who didn't look didn't live. The ones who have faith to look to Jesus live and those who don't look to Jesus don't live and that's the personal side of the relationship.

Really? Did the whole world look and believe...or just the chosen people of Israel?
If you are going to use your analogy, please note that the bronze serpent was only for the elect of Israel.
Jesus is looked upon and believed by the elect of God. The others consider the cross to be foolishness.

 

[Josiah]

Yup. Esau and Judas, to name two. (Rom 9:13; John 17:12)

Of course not. If you read the verses, neither says ANYTHING about Jesus not dying for Esau or Judas.

Yup. (John 10:15; John 10:26)

Nope. Neither verse says that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for the limited few. Yes, it says Jesus died for His sheep but your entire denomination tradition is absent, isn't it. There's no "ONLY." If I posted that Donald Trump is an American citizen, would that document that he is the ONLY American citizen?

Yup. (Mat 7:16-20; 1 John 2:19)

Nice verses, but neither one states that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for an unknowable few.



What does Scripture say?


Here's what Scripture states:


1 John 2:2, "Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
OURS.... and not ONLY ours.... but ALSO for the sins of "the whole world" NOT, "Not for the whole world but rather only for an unknowable few people who just happen to live on Earth as all people do."


Hebrews 2:9 "....Jesus tasted death for everyone."
EVERYONE.... not "just for an unknowable few"


1 Timothy 4:10 "...For Christ is the Savior of all people, especially those who believe."
Not "of only a few people but not most." "Especially for those who believe" because via faith, it is received by the individual (subjective justification).


Isaiah 53:6, "... and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
This prophecy is of Jesus... for those who have sin, Jesus died. For all of them. NOT "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."


John 4:42, ".... for Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world."
World. Not "of a tiny few who happen to be in the world." The verse makes no sense at all if it means only "the chosen" since the woman saying this was not a Jew and thus would not understand herself as chosen.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "That one had died for all.... that one has died for all."
Not "NOT for all but only, solely, exclusively, just for a limited FEW."


1 Timothy 4:6, "Who gave Himself as a random for all."
NOT, "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few - and odds are, that's not you."


John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son .... whosoever believes....."
NOT, "For God so loved only, exclusively, solely, just a tiny few who happen to be in the world....." NOT "whosoever believes but ONLY if Jesus actually died for them which He probably didn't."


And so many, many more...


NOW.... where are the verses that state the "L", where is stated the new denomination tradition of "Jesus did NOT die for all, but rather, instead, died for only, exclusively, solely, just an unknowable limited few people." Where are those verses? Are you hearing crickets? Are you just seeing evasion.... the shell game.... the silly idea that if self can ask a question the denomination tradition ergo must be right?



For 400 + years, radical Calvinists have been asked for a verse.... even just one.... anywhere.... that states that Jesus died for ONLY a few. But in 400 + years, not one of them has been able to find any such verse. Nothing. Not one. All they can do is quote a verse and INSERT the word "only" into it so as to reverse what it says.


So.... we have SO many verses that specifically say Jesus died for "everyone" "the whole world" "all" but not one verse that says that's not true, Jesus died ONLY for a few.









.

 

[Arsenios]

Yup.
Esau and Judas, to name two.
(Rom 9:13; John 17:12)

Romans 9:13

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Does that help? :rotfl:

Jesus died for each and every single sinner now in hell...

Love and hate are used here prior to Christ in order to be understood...

The question is WHY did God love Jacob and hate Esau?

You could argue the same with Abel and Cain...

Abel's sacrifices were the very best he had...

Cain's were his second quality surpluses...

In terms of understanding the Salvation of man in God, the two offerings are referring to spiritual sacrifices...

In Spirit, you cannot give your seconds to God...

You must give Him your very best...

This is dumbed down for material descriptives...

Visibly invisible...

God was "loving" and "hating" according to the spirits of the two men...

Such holding back in spirit will be reflected in one's lesser material offerings...

God wants you ALL IN for Him...

Holding some back deprives one of Grace...

As Ananias and his wife found out...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The issue is when a person states that Jesus vicarious sacrifice is effective for all.

Christ's sacrifice was not vicarious - It was actual and real...
It was not vicarious for us, but actual and real...
It demonstrated the truth that Christ confessed:
"But be for good cheer - For I have overcome the world."

We too are Called of God to FOLLOW Christ...
To overcome the world...
To scorn pleasure and pain...
And to walk solely in the Love of God...

Hence we are initiated into this Way of Life at Baptism INTO Christ...
The Baptism Christ commanded His Apostles to DO...
Then comes the testing and overcoming...
And Union with God on earth... [Glorification]

That is not true.

[eg His Sacrifice is not effective for all - my note.]

And this because not all avail themselves of it...

So then a person must either state that
the atonement is potentially for all,
but effective only for some.

There is not one for whom it is not effective...
AND...
Every person must pursue it...

So you could say it is actually not effective for anyone who does not pursue it...
And you could say that it is only effective for those who do pursue it...

Which knocks the question back a step:
"Who has the response ability to pursue or not pursue the Call of God?
Some say no one has it - We are all dead corpses incapable of responding to the Call of God...
Others say we ALL have it, yet few elect to respond with repentance...

I am one of these...

For the rest, it is ineffectual.

If you scorn the Call of God to Repentance, you will not attain Salvation...

Not because of the ineffectuality of the Sacrifice of Christ for you...

But because of your own decision to scorn the Gift...

Or, a person states that the atonement is only for the elect and it is always effective for whom God has actually atoned.

Those are the ones who embrace His ways... And who repent from sin and overcome sin...

Claiming that Jesus effectively atoned for all, but not all go to heaven because not all have faith, makes Jesus atonement ineffective and wastes his blood.

Indeed it does waste His Blood - But only for the one scorning the Gift and continuing in his sins without repentance...

It makes God evil for casting holy and righteous humans in hell.

That would be an evil god, no question...

Nobody believes in that one...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Christ's sacrifice was not vicarious - It was actual and real...
It was not vicarious for us, but actual and real...
It demonstrated the truth that Christ confessed:
"But be for good cheer - For I have overcome the world."

We too are Called of God to FOLLOW Christ...
To overcome the world...
To scorn pleasure and pain...
And to walk solely in the Love of God...

Hence we are initiated into this Way of Life at Baptism INTO Christ...
The Baptism Christ commanded His Apostles to DO...
Then comes the testing and overcoming...
And Union with God on earth... [Glorification]

[eg His Sacrifice is not effective for all - my note.]

And this because not all avail themselves of it...



There is not one for whom it is not effective...
AND...
Every person must pursue it...

So you could say it is actually not effective for anyone who does not pursue it...
And you could say that it is only effective for those who do pursue it...

Which knocks the question back a step:
"Who has the response ability to pursue or not pursue the Call of God?
Some say no one has it - We are all dead corpses incapable of responding to the Call of God...
Others say we ALL have it, yet few elect to respond with repentance...

I am one of these...



If you scorn the Call of God to Repentance, you will not attain Salvation...

Not because of the ineffectuality of the Sacrifice of Christ for you...

But because of your own decision to scorn the Gift...



Those are the ones who embrace His ways... And who repent from sin and overcome sin...



Indeed it does waste His Blood - But only for the one scorning the Gift and continuing in his sins without repentance...



That would be an evil god, no question...

Nobody believes in that one...


Arsenios

I used the wrong word, thinking it had a different meaning. Thanks for calling this out.

Indeed, Christ's atoning sacrifice is actual and real. It actually removes the stain of sin from every person on which his blood landed.
Hebrews 10:19-23
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

 

[MennoSota]

We too are Called of God to FOLLOW Christ...
To overcome the world...
To scorn pleasure and pain...
And to walk solely in the Love of God...

We, meaning the elect. But, when we fail, we have one who ensures that "there is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Hence we are initiated into this Way of Life at Baptism INTO Christ...

We initiate nothing. Here you are utterly wrong.

There is not one for whom it is not effective...
AND...
Every person must pursue it...

You are dead in your trespasses and sins. You can pursue nothing, unless God makes you alive.
Thus for all who remain dead in their trespasses and sins, the blood of Christ is of no consequence.
Since Jesus blood was not shed for them, they profit nothing from his death.
If you say Jesus shed his blood for those who remain dead in their trespasses and sins then you declare the blood of Christ to be insufficient.

So you could say it is actually not effective for anyone who does not pursue it...

I say that NO ONE ever pursues it. We are all dead in our trespasses and sins. Either God makes us alive with Christ or He doesn't.

Which knocks the question back a step:
"Who has the response ability to pursue or not pursue the Call of God?
Some say no one has it - We are all dead corpses incapable of responding to the Call of God...
Others say we ALL have it, yet few elect to respond with repentance...

I am one of these...

You are utterly wrong.

If you scorn the Call of God to Repentance, you will not attain Salvation...

You make salvation your own work. As a
dead man, you have utterly fallen short. Your gospel is no gospel at all. It is a message sending people to hell.

Not because of the ineffectuality of the Sacrifice of Christ for you...

But because of your own decision to scorn the Gift...

You preach salvation by your own self-righteous works. Paul calls down anathema upon your teaching.

Those are the ones who embrace His ways... And who repent from sin and overcome sin...

Works salvation. Anathema.

Indeed it does waste His Blood - But only for the one scorning the Gift and continuing in his sins without repentance...

You make God impotent and useless to save. How sad.
Sadly, you add so many self-righteous actions to salvation that you make Jesus secondary to your self.

 

[Andrew]

Arsenios what we mean by works salvation is that instead of presenting good works to sustain salvation or prove your worthiness you should rest in Christ assured that God called you forth and has given you a new heart and that good works are the result of salvation -NOT the means to it, lest any man should boast.
Be humble my friend, God gave you a perfect heart clean and pure, you have nothing to work for, the work is finished.

 

[atpollard]

Of course not. If you read the verses, neither says ANYTHING about Jesus not dying for Esau or Judas.

You have a very perculiar definition for words ... a justification that doesn’t necessarily accomplish any actual salvation, yet still counts as an ‘atonement’ and now a ‘son of perdition’ who was not necessisarially damned and a man that God ‘hated’ that He died to show his ‘love’ for.

I honestly don’t know how to even begin ...

Nope. Neither verse says that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for the limited few. Yes, it says Jesus died for His sheep but your entire denomination tradition is absent, isn't it. There's no "ONLY." If I posted that Donald Trump is an American citizen, would that document that he is the ONLY American citizen?


Nice verses, but neither one states that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for an unknowable few.

You might want to go back and reread the questions that I was actually answering, because “Does the Bible say that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for an unknowable few?” was not the question I answered.

What does Scripture say?


Here's what Scripture states:


1 John 2:2, "Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
OURS.... and not ONLY ours.... but ALSO for the sins of "the whole world" NOT, "Not for the whole world but rather only for an unknowable few people who just happen to live on Earth as all people do."


Hebrews 2:9 "....Jesus tasted death for everyone."
EVERYONE.... not "just for an unknowable few"


1 Timothy 4:10 "...For Christ is the Savior of all people, especially those who believe."
Not "of only a few people but not most." "Especially for those who believe" because via faith, it is received by the individual (subjective justification).


Isaiah 53:6, "... and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
This prophecy is of Jesus... for those who have sin, Jesus died. For all of them. NOT "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few."


John 4:42, ".... for Jesus is indeed the Savior of the world."
World. Not "of a tiny few who happen to be in the world." The verse makes no sense at all if it means only "the chosen" since the woman saying this was not a Jew and thus would not understand herself as chosen.


2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "That one had died for all.... that one has died for all."
Not "NOT for all but only, solely, exclusively, just for a limited FEW."


1 Timothy 4:6, "Who gave Himself as a random for all."
NOT, "Not for all but only, exclusively, solely, just for a limited few - and odds are, that's not you."


John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son .... whosoever believes....."
NOT, "For God so loved only, exclusively, solely, just a tiny few who happen to be in the world....." NOT "whosoever believes but ONLY if Jesus actually died for them which He probably didn't."


And so many, many more...


NOW.... where are the verses that state the "L", where is stated the new denomination tradition of "Jesus did NOT die for all, but rather, instead, died for only, exclusively, solely, just an unknowable limited few people." Where are those verses? Are you hearing crickets? Are you just seeing evasion.... the shell game.... the silly idea that if self can ask a question the denomination tradition ergo must be right?



For 400 + years, radical Calvinists have been asked for a verse.... even just one.... anywhere.... that states that Jesus died for ONLY a few. But in 400 + years, not one of them has been able to find any such verse. Nothing. Not one. All they can do is quote a verse and INSERT the word "only" into it so as to reverse what it says.


So.... we have SO many verses that specifically say Jesus died for "everyone" "the whole world" "all" but not one verse that says that's not true, Jesus died ONLY for a few.

Y A W N ... Really? Again?

Why thank you for repeating this quote again. I did not understand the first 49 times you called me a monster and a heretic for my beliefs in the sovereignty of God and the emphasis on his choice in Romans and Ephesians. However, now that you have repeated it verbatim for a 50th time, I have seen the error of my ways and I am now fully convinced that I am wrong and only YOU are correct.

Unfortunately, I still have no clue how Jesus dies to forgive EVERYONE, except no one is actually forgiven unless they have faith, which GOD soverignly gives, except people have the power to loose it, except that we still have all those verses like “He who began a good work will see it to completion” and “All that the Father gives, (Jesus) WILL raise” ... but we are not allowed to discuss anything except the L in TULIP.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios what we mean by works salvation is that instead of presenting good works to sustain salvation or prove your worthiness you should rest in Christ assured that God called you forth and has given you a new heart and that good works are the result of salvation -NOT the means to it, lest any man should boast.
Be humble my friend, God gave you a perfect heart clean and pure, you have nothing to work for, the work is finished.

We are Baptized INTO Christ, yes?
And then we GROW in Christ, yes?
And there is no limit to that growth, yes?
Because Christ is not limited, yes?

So kicking back and resting...
Have a beer and grab the remote...
Scorns the Gift Christ gives to us...
The Parable of the Talents fits here...

Humility is the shrinking of self that God grow in us...
This shrinking is not automatic...
It is attained by repentance...
By denying the self, mortifying the old man in us...

Why would anyone desire to not grow in Christ?
Why would anyone not desire to grow in Love?
Why would anyone not desire to overcome the world?
Christ's Work is done, but my work is to the end...

And yes, I am at peace in great joy...
And there is no end in sight...

Our work as Christians is to follow Christ...

Here is Paul describing what it looks like:

2Co 6:1-10
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the Grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Kinda sums it up, yes?


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

We are Baptized INTO Christ, yes?
And then we GROW in Christ, yes?
And there is no limit to that growth, yes?
Because Christ is not limited, yes?

So kicking back and resting...
Have a beer and grab the remote...
Scorns the Gift Christ gives to us...
The Parable of the Talents fits here...

Humility is the shrinking of self that God grow in us...
This shrinking is not automatic...
It is attained by repentance...
By denying the self, mortifying the old man in us...

Why would anyone desire to not grow in Christ?
Why would anyone not desire to grow in Love?
Why would anyone not desire to overcome the world?
Christ's Work is done, but my work is to the end...

And yes, I am at peace in great joy...
And there is no end in sight...

Our work as Christians is to follow Christ...

Here is Paul describing what it looks like:

2Co 6:1-10
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the Grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Kinda sums it up, yes?


Arsenios

Grace is growth amen. I'm not arguing against Christian maturity or Gods workmanship if that's what you are implying.

 

[Arsenios]

Grace is growth amen.
I'm not arguing against Christian maturity
or Gods workmanship
if that's what you are implying.

I took you to be arguing for complacency because:

"God gave you a perfect heart
clean and pure,
you have nothing to work for,
the work is finished."

I am only scratching the surface of the work to be done...

We are all works in progress...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]

I honestly don’t know how to even begin ...

Easy.


The issue of this thread and the issue of the "L" in TULIP is very simple: Did Jesus die for all.... everyone... all people (as historic, orthodox Christianity believes) OR rather for only, exclusively, solely, just an unknowable FEW. Simple.


Now, many of us have offered Scripture to support the historic, ecumenical position (one proclaimed by the Ecumenical Council of Orange, btw).... And they are pretty clear. Over a year ago, we were promised Scriptures that state the opposite, Scriptures that state that Jesus died ONLY (that's the whole dogma, that word) for the church/elect/unknowable few. But we're still waiting.

“Does the Bible say that Jesus died only, exclusively, solely, just for an unknowable few?” was not the question I answered

I couldn't agree more. Nor has MennoSota.

There DOES seem to be persistent evasion from Calvinists on this. They post A LOT but it's all evasions, diversions, "not answering the question." A lot of "the shell game."


It is the sole, singular, exclusive, one issue of this thread (now on page 24),and of course as MennoSota specifically stated it IS the issue of the "L" in TULIP (a point confirmed by some esteemed Reformed websites that I referenced for him), and it IS the sole issue of a long thread he created and entitled "Jesus died ONLY for the church" (and later equated with the "L" of TULIP), it IS the issue Lutherans and Reformed Christians disagree on, but you are right my friend: No Calvinist has yet to address it, yet to answer the question.

I did not understand the first 49 times you called me a monster and a heretic

Is this a characteristic of Reformed apologetics ? We witness it so often from MennoSota, too...


Friend, quote me.


What you have dogmatically and publicly accused me of is huge..... and in my opinion, just the "shell game" and an effort to deflect the discussion away from the stated issue and instead to personally attack me....


Friend, every one KNOWS your public personal accusation is wrong.... everyone knows you won't quote me as I request and everyone knows why.... Come on, you are far above that. You know it, too.


Now, I did state that this new denomination tradition of "Jesus died ONLY for an unknowable few" is terrible...yes. But I never said YOU were..... and you asked me why I conclude this tradition is "terrible" ..... and I specifically answered your question... and you ignored it.

for my beliefs in the sovereignty of God

That's a falsehood.

I never called you a monster. I never called you terrible. I never called you a heretic.

And I've NEVER, EVER, not once, not remotely,n not ever in my entire life, not ever stated ANYTHING negative about ANYONE agreeing with me about the soverignty of God. I've only illustrated I have a hard time spelling the word.

The denomination tradition is "Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for an unknowable, LIMITED FEW." It's not "Is God sovereign."



Several of us have given Scripture that states Jesus died "for the whole world" "for everyone" "for all people" "not just us but also for others". And we were promised Scriptures that state the opposite. And we're still waiting.

and the emphasis on his choice in Romans and Ephesians.

No.


I fully, completely agreed with the verses you presented from Ephesians and Romans. I've always agreed with every verse MennoSota has offered, too. I specifically posted to you I fully agreed with them. You then chose to ignore that. And now are accusing me of calling you a heretic, terrible, a monster for you noting these verses (that I agreed with). Friend... well...... Of course, I noted that the verses you quoted don't say Jesus died for only an unknowable few but you chose to ignore that.... and now twist that in a personal flame of you being a monster.




.

 

[Andrew]

I took you to be arguing for complacency because:

"God gave you a perfect heart
clean and pure,
you have nothing to work for,
the work is finished."

I am only scratching the surface of the work to be done...

We are all works in progress...


Arsenios

I noticed in other post you take "it is finished" to mean "do what you want and party hardy", yes I have used this argument against Menno in times past, I even made him a meme of a church sign "Church of MennoSota: BYOB" lol, so I understand its a common first response to assume so... however this is not the case, if someone is living a completely destructive lifestyle and hooks up with loose women at the bar every night and drives drunk etc and call themselves "Christian" has not put on the new man.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is odd to watch all the arguments trying to deny that Jesus Christ died for all when holy scripture directly states that he died for all. What's the point in denying what is written in holy scripture? I appreciate that some of you believe in "Limited atonement" for whatever reasons seem good to you bu you cannot make what is written disappear.

 

[atpollard]

[MENTION=334]atpollard[/MENTION]
Easy.

The issue of this thread and the issue of the "L" in TULIP is very simple: Did Jesus die for all.... everyone... all people (as historic, orthodox Christianity believes) OR rather for only, exclusively, solely, just an unknowable FEW. Simple.

Now, many of us have offered Scripture to support the historic, ecumenical position (one proclaimed by the Ecumenical Council of Orange, btw).... And they are pretty clear. Over a year ago, we were promised Scriptures that state the opposite, Scriptures that state that Jesus died ONLY (that's the whole dogma, that word) for the church/elect/unknowable few. But we're still waiting.

I couldn't agree more. Nor has MennoSota.

There DOES seem to be persistent evasion from Calvinists on this. They post A LOT but it's all evasions, diversions, "not answering the question." A lot of "the shell game."

It is the sole, singular, exclusive, one issue of this thread (now on page 24),and of course as MennoSota specifically stated it IS the issue of the "L" in TULIP (a point confirmed by some esteemed Reformed websites that I referenced for him), and it IS the sole issue of a long thread he created and entitled "Jesus died ONLY for the church" (and later equated with the "L" of TULIP), it IS the issue Lutherans and Reformed Christians disagree on, but you are right my friend: No Calvinist has yet to address it, yet to answer the question.

Is this a characteristic of Reformed apologetics ? We witness it so often from MennoSota, too...

Friend, quote me.

What you have dogmatically and publicly accused me of is huge..... and in my opinion, just the "shell game" and an effort to deflect the discussion away from the stated issue and instead to personally attack me....

Friend, every one KNOWS your public personal accusation is wrong.... everyone knows you won't quote me as I request and everyone knows why.... Come on, you are far above that. You know it, too.

Now, I did state that this new denomination tradition of "Jesus died ONLY for an unknowable few" is terrible...yes. But I never said YOU were..... and you asked me why I conclude this tradition is "terrible" ..... and I specifically answered your question... and you ignored it.

That's a falsehood.

I never called you a monster. I never called you terrible. I never called you a heretic.

And I've NEVER, EVER, not once, not remotely,n not ever in my entire life, not ever stated ANYTHING negative about ANYONE agreeing with me about the soverignty of God. I've only illustrated I have a hard time spelling the word.

The denomination tradition is "Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for an unknowable, LIMITED FEW." It's not "Is God sovereign."

Several of us have given Scripture that states Jesus died "for the whole world" "for everyone" "for all people" "not just us but also for others". And we were promised Scriptures that state the opposite. And we're still waiting.

No.

I fully, completely agreed with the verses you presented from Ephesians and Romans. I've always agreed with every verse MennoSota has offered, too. I specifically posted to you I fully agreed with them. You then chose to ignore that. And now are accusing me of calling you a heretic, terrible, a monster for you noting these verses (that I agreed with). Friend... well...... Of course, I noted that the verses you quoted don't say Jesus died for only an unknowable few but you chose to ignore that.... and now twist that in a personal flame of you being a monster.
.

I will adress only one small part of all this. You sling mud with a broad brush on "a few radical Calvinists" who hold beliefs contrary to 'Christiandom' [a loose paraphrase because I do not wish to bother searching for your exact, oft repeated, quote] that clearly implies that everyone who holds to 5 point Calvinism is "radical" and has departed from the beliefs of the Church Universal.

You never said I was a heretical monster in those exact words, but you NEVER loct an oportunity in any topic to tell everyone that 5 point Calvinism is HORRIBLE and not what the CHRISTIAN CHURCH believes.

At this point, CH has moved into that territory where it no longer offers anything edifying for me. It is finally time for me to take a long 'Time Out'.