Is Veneration of the Saints something that is allowed by God?

[hobie]

You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' something the same sin against God?

 

[Albion]

Veneration of the saints and worshipping statues are two different things.

 

[hobie]

Veneration of the saints and worshipping statues are two different things.

Have you checked...take a look and see if the 'saints' are not 'statues'...of wood and stone or just plain graven images...https://www.google.com/search?q=sta...AR6BAgEEAE&biw=1001&bih=643#spf=1568424454300
https://www.franciscanmedia.org/source/saint-of-the-day/

 

[Albion]

Have you checked...take a look and see if the 'saints' are not 'statues'.

Yes, I've "checked." You are mixing two completely separate actions/concepts. Some people might do both of these, of course, but there is no reason why they should and most people know better than to do that. Some of the most common venerating (which your link actually shows us) is a matter of setting aside a day on the church calendar for commemorating the saint or perhaps naming a church for one of them. None of that involves worshipping statues.

 

[hobie]

Yes, I've "checked." You are mixing two completely separate actions/concepts. Some people might do both of these, of course, but there is no reason why they should and most people know better than to do that.

You cannot deny they are 'statues' of wood and stone that cannot hear or speak...

Revelation 9:20

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

[Albion]

You cannot deny they are 'statues' of wood and stone that cannot hear or speak...

I cannot deny that there ARE statues of wood and stone that cannot hear or speak. That doesn't mean that they either are worshipped or venerated.

 

[hobie]

I cannot deny that there ARE statues of wood and stone that cannot hear or speak. That doesn't mean that they either are worshipped or venerated.

Go check at the places they are at, look at the Vatican and the Cathedrals, they bow and pay homage and without a doubt, worship them.....

 

[Albion]

Go check at the places they are at, look at the Vatican and the Cathedrals, they bow and pay homage and without a doubt, worship them.....

:attention:

If so, you are talking about worshipping statues, not venerating the saints.

 

[George]

What’s about the tabernacle? It was adorned and made beautiful.

 

[Josiah]

You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' something the same sin against God?

Define "veneration."

Define "idol."

 

[MennoSota]

Define "veneration."

Define "idol."

veneration.*Veneration*is similar to worship or respect:*we*feel*veneration*for things and people*we*adore and*are*devoted to completely. This is a strong word. The main*meaning*is for a type of religious zeal: if*you*unquestionably believe in your religion, then*you*feel and show*veneration*for your god and beliefs.


veneration - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com



Definition of*idol

1:*an object of extreme devotiona movie*idolalso*:*IDEAL*sense 2

2:*a representation or symbol of an object of worshipbroadly*:*a false god

3a:*a likeness of something

bobsolete*:*PRETENDER,*IMPOSTOR

4:*a false conception*:*FALLACY

5:*a form or appearance visible but without substancean enchanted phantom, a lifeless*idol— P. B. Shelley

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol

 

[atpollard]

What’s about the tabernacle? It was adorned and made beautiful.

And look where that led!

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist).

 

[RichWh1]

What’s about the tabernacle? It was adorned and made beautiful.

The Israelites were commanded to build the tabernacle. They were prohibited from building stone statues

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The Israelites were commanded to build the tabernacle. They were prohibited from building stone statues

Yes, but they were also commanded to do other things and NOT prohibited:

The Lord said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the Lord, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the Lord your God. (Num. 15:37-41)​

So were the Israelites who obeyed the command of God and looked at these tassels (i.e. pondered, meditated on) so they would "remember all the commands of the Lord" venerating the tassels/prayer shawls, or were they remembering the commands of God as they were instructed?

The object of consideration (i.e. the tassels) is not the end point. Neither is the veneration of Saints - the Saint is not worshiped - it is reserved for God alone

 

[NewCreation435]

You can say they represent the Saints, yet they are still of wood or stone or metal, and people come and worship them no matter how it is called. Now what does scripture say, does God allow even the idol of a 'saint' or any idol, lets see...

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
and turn away your faces from all your abominations."
-Ezekiel 14:6

So how as history shows us can any church embrace and gather as many statues, medals, relics, and artifacts to themselves as a sign of holiness unto God. The Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:4, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

Deuteronomy 29:17, "And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them

Some churches teach their followers to bow down before these 'saints' when in prayer. Anyone can walk into these church and see kneelers before every statue place within. However, the Creator specifically states...

Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Leviticus 26:1, "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."

So even though they change the name its still the same thing, so is 'Veneration of the Saints' something the same sin against God?

As I understand it, veneration means respect or reverence for. I think it is appropriate to respect those Christians who came before us, especially if they did great things or lived great lives. But, I think we have to remember that they had no holiness in themselves. Holiness is from God and only a characteristic of God. Ultimately, I should be praising God for using another person to point people to Jesus. If, in fact, that is what they were pointing to.

 

[Andrew]

Yes, but they were also commanded to do other things and NOT prohibited:

The Lord said to Moses, 38 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the Lord, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the Lord your God. (Num. 15:37-41)​

View attachment 1187

So were the Israelites who obeyed the command of God and looked at these tassels (i.e. pondered, meditated on) so they would "remember all the commands of the Lord" venerating the tassels/prayer shawls, or were they remembering the commands of God as they were instructed?

The object of consideration (i.e. the tassels) is not the end point. Neither is the veneration of Saints - the Saint is not worshiped - it is reserved for God alone

I agree, it's a misconception that Catholics are worshiping or venerating a block of stone, we look at our crosses not to venerate two crossing sticks.
The Pentecostal church I attended use to bash the Catholic churches with the same misconception, even the Trinity because as they put it "we do not worship three gods like they do, we worship one God", they would also say that "they worship statues", when no, they don't.

 

[atpollard]

I agree, it's a misconception that Catholics are worshiping or venerating a block of stone, we look at our crosses not to venerate two crossing sticks.
The Pentecostal church I attended use to bash the Catholic churches with the same misconception, even the Trinity because as they put it "we do not worship three gods like they do, we worship one God", they would also say that "they worship statues", when no, they don't.

The block of stone, no. However many practicing Catholics are offering prayers to saints and have no personal communication with God (and would admit as much). The object of their faith is their prayers to the Blessed Virgin.

This is not the official teaching of the Church, but I have enough Roman Catholic relatives to know that it is the reality of more than a few parishioners. Their hope is in the Virgin Mary and Purgatory to eventually get them into heaven.

 

[Andrew]

The block of stone, no. However many practicing Catholics are offering prayers to saints and have no personal communication with God (and would admit as much). The object of their faith is their prayers to the Blessed Virgin.

This is not the official teaching of the Church, but I have enough Roman Catholic relatives to know that it is the reality of more than a few parishioners. Their hope is in the Virgin Mary and Purgatory to eventually get them into heaven.

I agree with that, from what I see many of the members of my local catholic church do not agree nor do the priests really care for it but they do venerate past christian saints, I have seen videos of people offering up gifts to statues which is very "too superstitious" and not to be rude or anything but this is seriously the case in catholic churches in Mexico, in the US I just don't see it.

 

[Albion]

The block of stone, no. However many practicing Catholics are offering prayers to saints and have no personal communication with God (and would admit as much). The object of their faith is their prayers to the Blessed Virgin.

This is not the official teaching of the Church....

Actually it is. However, you are speaking now about praying to spirits, not about either 1) worshipping them or statues or 2) "venerating" the saints.

 

[hobie]

veneration.*Veneration*is similar to worship or respect:*we*feel*veneration*for things and people*we*adore and*are*devoted to completely. This is a strong word. The main*meaning*is for a type of religious zeal: if*you*unquestionably believe in your religion, then*you*feel and show*veneration*for your god and beliefs.


veneration - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com



Definition of*idol

1:*an object of extreme devotiona movie*idolalso*:*IDEAL*sense 2

2:*a representation or symbol of an object of worshipbroadly*:*a false god

3a:*a likeness of something

bobsolete*:*PRETENDER,*IMPOSTOR

4:*a false conception*:*FALLACY

5:*a form or appearance visible but without substancean enchanted phantom, a lifeless*idol— P. B. Shelley

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol

That's seems to be pretty clear, but what about if you say a "prayer to Mary". Well when a person prays to Mary or any of the "saints" who have gone to their grave, they are praying to the dead, which is necromancy. And according to the dictionary, necromancy is defined as: "Divination by means of communication with the dead. Black magic; sorcery." By definition, seeking communication with the dead is equated with sorcery and black magic, and is an abomination before God.

In the Old Testament, God had crowned Saul as the first earthly king of Israel. However, God took the kingdom of Israel from Saul and gave it to David because of Saul's disobedience to God's commandments, and later destroyed Saul and his sons because he had sought a witch to communicate with the dead, as the prophet Samuel who had died shortly before.

We know the story well, Saul had sought an answer from the Lord concerning a battle which he was about to fight with the Philistines,
In 1 Samuel 28:6, we read that God would not answer Saul not through dreams, through the Urim and not even "by the prophets." Then the story continues:

1 Samuel 28:7-15
"7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do."

Saul had previously driven the wizards and those that had familiar spirits out of the land in accordance with God's commandment,

Leviticus 20:27
“27 A man or a woman that has a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: Their blood shall be upon them.”

This was commanded by God in order to prevent the practice from corrupting Israel. Saul had to disguise himself when he went to the woman, so that the woman wouldn't hide for fear of him. She called up a demon disguised as Samuel (not Samuel himself) who foretold that Saul and his sons would be killed the following day by the Philistines, which indeed happen. The Bible records;

1 Samuel 31:1-6
“1 Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 2 And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons. 3 And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.”

Now if you wonder as to whether what the form the witch called up was indeed Samuel or not, and the issue is put to rest in I Chronicles, which says,

I1 Chronicles 10:13-14
"13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14 And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse."

Saul, seeking to know the future by using the witch was not talking to Samuel as was clear, but had instead enquired of a familiar spirit (a demon) .