Is there a Calvinist who thinks he/she is not Elect?

MoreCoffee

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Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?
 

tango

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It was predestined to be that way?
 

Albion

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On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know.

However, it is reasonable--and Scriptural--to have the hunch that a person who lives a Godly life is more than likely among the Elect, while those who hate righteousness probably are not.

So for the upright, churchgoing Calvinist to hope that he is among the Elect is not surprising. Meanwhile, I can honestly say that I have never met a Catholic who thought that he would be in Purgatory, not Heaven, upon departing this life. This despite the fact that such is exactly what the church they belong to teaches about the destiny of those who will at some time in the future reach Heaven.
 

MoreCoffee

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On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know. ...

Are you elect? A Calvinist?
 

atpollard

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Calvinist folk talk a lot about TULIP matters, sometimes under the name "the doctrines of grace" and in TULIP is the topic of election. I can't recall a single Calvinist advocate who did not think he/she was elect. They all appear to believe that they are among the elect of God. Why is that?

Because aside from the irrisistable draw of God, quickening a dead heart, all of fallen mankind is both unwilling to and incapable of seeking the true God on His terms (repentance, confession, faith in the cross and the lordship of Jesus). Natural man wants to follow Allah and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and work really hard to prove to God that we have earned our salvation through (as a direct result of the merits of) our good works ... or natural man refuses to follow God at all.

So the DESIRE to please God and do things God’s way rather than our way can only come from God ... making us (Calvinists) part of the Church Universal, the Body of Christ in all times and all places, and therefore chosen, beloved and elect.

What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).
 

MoreCoffee

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What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).

Theologically speaking Catholic teaching is that the faithful are on the road that leads to salvation - the straight and narrow path - rather than "saved" in the sense in which many Protestants claim to be "saved".
 

tango

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On the contrary, most of the Calvinists whom I know personally are quite frank to say that they do not know.

However, it is reasonable--and Scriptural--to have the hunch that a person who lives a Godly life is more than likely among the Elect, while those who hate righteousness probably are not.

You can't really conclude that. If you believe in the concept of the elect then the thief who repented on the cross was elect despite the fact that no part of his life until his dying moments looked even remotely righteous. It would seem to me that "the elect", if it exists as an objectively defined group in this manner, is just as likely to include the stillborn baby, the child who died of leukemia aged 3 and the adult who repented on their deathbed as it is to include the priest and the person who gave their life to Jesus aged 7 and lived a Christian life until they died in their 90s.

So for the upright, churchgoing Calvinist to hope that he is among the Elect is not surprising. Meanwhile, I can honestly say that I have never met a Catholic who thought that he would be in Purgatory, not Heaven, upon departing this life. This despite the fact that such is exactly what the church they belong to teaches about the destiny of those who will at some time in the future reach Heaven.

Interesting counter-observation :)
 

MennoSota

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Because aside from the irrisistable draw of God, quickening a dead heart, all of fallen mankind is both unwilling to and incapable of seeking the true God on His terms (repentance, confession, faith in the cross and the lordship of Jesus). Natural man wants to follow Allah and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and work really hard to prove to God that we have earned our salvation through (as a direct result of the merits of) our good works ... or natural man refuses to follow God at all.

So the DESIRE to please God and do things God’s way rather than our way can only come from God ... making us (Calvinists) part of the Church Universal, the Body of Christ in all times and all places, and therefore chosen, beloved and elect.

What makes so many Catholics think they are among the saved? (I assumed that it was the same thing, the draw of God and the evidence of change wrought by the Holy Spirit).
Right.
I recognize the work of God on my behalf and the faith, given that I might persevere.
While God is not obligated to save, God has promised that He will never leave nor forsake His chosen ones. God will enable the elect to persevere.
God knows His elect. I am content in knowing that God will justly do what He wills with me. If I am condemned by my sins...that is just. If I am redeemed by Jesus atonement, justice has been met by God the Son on my behalf. Either way, God is righteous, good and just.
 

Albion

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You can't really conclude that. If you believe in the concept of the elect then the thief who repented on the cross was elect despite the fact that no part of his life until his dying moments looked even remotely righteous. It would seem to me that "the elect", if it exists as an objectively defined group in this manner, is just as likely to include the stillborn baby, the child who died of leukemia aged 3 and the adult who repented on their deathbed as it is to include the priest and the person who gave their life to Jesus aged 7 and lived a Christian life until they died in their 90s.

Tango, I was prepared to read a careful rebuttal to what I had written...but what you have said here is not that.

First, I clearly wrote that what an onlooker might have is a "hunch," not something proven, not a solid conclusion. I stand behind that. Yes, if a person lives a virtuous life, is a believing Christian, etc. there is a reason to guess that he is likely to be among the Elect...but it is not guaranteed.

Whether any onlooker suspects that the subject is among the Elect--or, on the other hand, is not--it is a guess. But it is not as though it is a guess made in the dark without any evidence and minus all logic.

Second, you have mentioned a few exceptions. These are clearly not the norm--children who die in the first several years, deathbed conversions, and so on. What you have done there is attempt to show that NOT EVERY person can be sized up by an onlooker and classified as Elect or Reprobate. But no one is attempting to do that--classify every person who comes into the world. Nor was that the idea I was responding to in my post.

The issue concerned whether a believer in Election might have an opinion about whether he (or someone else he observes), is likely to be among the Elect.







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tango

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Tango, I was prepared to read a careful rebuttal to what I had written...but what you have said here is not that.

First, I clearly wrote that what an onlooker might have is a "hunch," not something proven, not a solid conclusion. I stand behind that. Yes, if a person lives a virtuous life, is a believing Christian, etc. there is a reason to guess that he is likely to be among the Elect...but it is not guaranteed.

Whether any onlooker suspects that the subject is among the Elect--or, on the other hand, is not--it is a guess. But it is not as though it is a guess made in the dark without any evidence and minus all logic.

Second, you have mentioned a few exceptions. These are clearly not the norm--children who die in the first several years, deathbed conversions, and so on. What you have done there is attempt to show that NOT EVERY person can be sized up by an onlooker and classified as Elect or Reprobate. But no one is attempting to do that--classify every person who comes into the world. Nor was that the idea I was responding to in my post.

The issue concerned whether a believer in Election might have an opinion about whether he (or someone else he observes), is likely to be among the Elect.

My point wasn't so much whether or not an observer might have an opinion (you know what they say about opinions, right?) but whether an opinion is likely to be a useful opinion. During the time I was involved in the occult I despised just about anything that even looked like an organised religion with most of my most pointed venom reserved for Christianity. You'd certainly be forgiven for assuming I was anything but one of the elect. And, who knows, maybe I'm still in for a nasty surprise come Judgment Day, if the concept of a predestined group called "the elect" proves to be the truth.

Extreme outliers aren't necessarily useful as a driver of good concepts but are useful to demonstrate if a concept is flawed. If you look at the average human being you don't see someone who lives an obviously unrighteous life. Since we seldom see the darker side, if it exists, of the majority of people we encounter there's really no way to form a useful opinion. That dark side might be anything from the priest who is a pedophile, the church elder who hits his wife or something as simple as the teenage boy who faithfully attends church but just because he kinda likes the girl in the choir.

Hence my point, that although we might form an opinion we'd probably be well advised not to put any credence in it at all because we can't see the hearts of those about whom we are forming those opinions. The thief on the cross and the stillborn baby are just examples to demonstrate that.
 

Josiah

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ONE of the MANY problems with TULIP is that it mandates that it is impossible to know if Jesus died for YOU... thus, faith (in most cases) is irrelevant since it probably is not trusting/relying on something that exists for THEM. They can know if they have faith, but not if that faith is in something for THEM.


BTW, it also makes for strange evangelism/mission work... the message must be: "God probably wants you to fry in hell.... Jesus probably didn't die for you... it's likely God will refuse to be merciful to you... guy hey, just in case....."


1 John 2:2, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.



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Albion

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ONE of the MANY problems with TULIP is that it mandates that it is impossible to know if Jesus died for YOU... thus, faith (in most cases) is irrelevant since it probably is not trusting/relying on something that exists for THEM. They can know if they have faith, but not if that faith is in something for THEM.
.


I don't see how faith can be considered to be irrelevant if the theology clearly states--as it does--that faith is the means by which anyone is saved (and it to the exclusion of works or anything else).
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

BTW, it also makes for strange evangelism/mission work... the message must be: "God probably wants you to fry in hell.... Jesus probably didn't die for you... it's likely God will refuse to be merciful to you... guy hey, just in case....."


1 John 2:2, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


ONE of the MANY problems with TULIP is that it mandates that it is impossible to know if Jesus died for YOU... thus, faith (in most cases) is irrelevant since it probably is not trusting/relying on something that exists for THEM. They can know if they have faith, but not if that faith is in something for THEM.



.

I don't see how faith can be considered to be irrelevant if the theology clearly states--as it does--that faith is the means by which anyone is saved (and it to the exclusion of works or anything else).


Faith only saves if there's something for it to grasp/trust/rely upon.... and since TULIP says it most cases, there is nothing.... then in most cases, faith is irrelevant to salvation.
 

tango

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Faith only saves if there's something for it to grasp/trust/rely upon.... and since TULIP says it most cases, there is nothing.... then in most cases, faith is irrelevant to salvation.

In this situation it would be comparable to having faith that the rickety bridge over the ravine will take your weight, only to find out that you were wrong when you were about half way across.
 

Albion

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Faith only saves if there's something for it to grasp/trust/rely upon.... and since TULIP says it most cases, there is nothing.... then in most cases, faith is irrelevant to salvation.

I don't get the second part of that sentence, but if Faith alone saves, and it is a gift of God, then it necessarily does have something to grasp (onto).
 

Josiah

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I don't get the second part of that sentence, but if Faith alone saves, and it is a gift of God, then it necessarily does have something to grasp (onto).


Only if the Calvinist totally rejects both Sola Gratia and Solus Christus.... only if the Calvinist holds that Jesus is not the Savior in any sense and that the works of Jesus are irrelevant to anything, but all that matters is if one has faith (whether IN anything or not).

Friend, faith is a means, faith must be IN something to have any result whatsoever. If that "something" isn't, then it doesn't accomplish anything. There must be an OBJECT....something trusted, grasped. In TULIP, Jesus died for only a minority, NOT for most people. Therefore, for most people, faith is irrelevant, meaningless because their faith is grasping a complete void, emptiness. No object. Nothing to trust, to grasp, to rely upon.

This is just ONE of the many problems of TULIP..... an abiblical argument based on human "logic" and often in direct conflict with Scripture. IMO, it is also horrible, in part because NO ONE can even theoretically believe they are saved and "heaven bound" since there is no way to know if their faith is in something FOR THEM. And of course, has truly weird implications, including (as many point out), it makes evangelism and outreach absurd: one can ONLY say, "God likely doens't' love you... likely has no grace or mercy for you... Jesus probably did nothing for you.... faith in Him is probably moot.... but hey...." One CANNOT know that Jesus died for ME unless He died for all. Faith has no relevance unless it HAS something to rely upon for ME. 1 John 2:2, etc., etc., etc.
 

MennoSota

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ONE of the MANY problems with TULIP is that it mandates that it is impossible to know if Jesus died for YOU... thus, faith (in most cases) is irrelevant since it probably is not trusting/relying on something that exists for THEM. They can know if they have faith, but not if that faith is in something for THEM.


BTW, it also makes for strange evangelism/mission work... the message must be: "God probably wants you to fry in hell.... Jesus probably didn't die for you... it's likely God will refuse to be merciful to you... guy hey, just in case....."


1 John 2:2, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.



.
This is false. Josiah, you don't know what you are talking about. Best to abstain.
 

Albion

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Only if the Calvinist totally rejects both Sola Gratia and Solus Christus.... only if the Calvinist holds that Jesus is not the Savior in any sense and that the works of Jesus are irrelevant to anything, but all that matters is if one has faith (whether IN anything or not).
I am glad for the reply, but it looks to me that you mischaracterize the meaning of Faith as Calvinists see it. It certainly is not a trust in something abstract or just anything at all, but is Faith in Christ as ones Lord and Savior plus all that goes along with that conviction.
 

Josiah

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I am glad for the reply, but it looks to me that you mischaracterize the meaning of Faith as Calvinists see it. It certainly is not a trust in something abstract or just anything at all, but is Faith in Christ as ones Lord and Savior plus all that goes along with that conviction.


I've not mischaracterized LIMITED atonement. It is that Jesus died for a minority.... that God's mercy and grace and gifts are for a minority of people.... that Christ has nothing for most people. Thus, faith is relevant ONLY if Christ has something for them to trust, to grasp, to claim, to rely upon. And how does one know if Christ died for THEM, specifically? They don't, they can't... they only know He didn't for most people, He has nothing for most to trust in or grasp or claim or gain or rely upon.

Friend, trusting something is irrelevant if there is no something to trust. And the point of TULIP is that for most, there isn't. The faith may be real... but typically there is no object for it and thus it is irrelevant and nothing whatsoever results. One can know if they have faith but not if that faith embraces ANYTHING that is for THEM. After all, it's NOT for most people. It is irrelevant, meaningless, worthless to trust in something that (for you) doesn't exist; your trust is real but the object is (for you) nonexistent.

One can grasp at emptiness all day long... with all sincerity and strength and genuiness ... it is irrelvant and meaningless, there's nothing THERE (for them). Faith without an object is meaningless and results in NOTHING.

Faith that has no object is just empty, void emotion signifying nothing.



Two Lutheran links:

http://justandsinner.blogspot.com/2010/01/practical-implications-of-limited.html
http://justandsinner.blogspot.com/2013/08/universal-atonement-in-2-peter-21.html#links






.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Right.
I recognize the work of God on my behalf and the faith, given that I might persevere.
While God is not obligated to save, God has promised that He will never leave nor forsake His chosen ones. God will enable the elect to persevere.
God knows His elect. I am content in knowing that God will justly do what He wills with me. If I am condemned by my sins...that is just. If I am redeemed by Jesus atonement, justice has been met by God the Son on my behalf. Either way, God is righteous, good and just.
Your words brought to mind a passage in Isaiah.

The song of Hezekiah, king of Judah, after he had been sick and had recovered from his illness:
Once I said, In the noontime of life I must depart! To the gates of the nether world I shall be consigned for the rest of my years. I said, I shall see the LORD no more in the land of the living. No longer shall I behold my fellow men among those who dwell in the world. My dwelling, like a shepherd's tent, is struck down and borne away from me; You have folded up my life, like a weaver who severs the last thread. Day and night you give me over to torment; I cry out until the dawn. Like a lion he breaks all my bones; (day and night you give me over to torment). Like a swallow I utter shrill cries; I moan like a dove. My eyes grow weak, gazing heavenward: O Lord, I am in straits; be my surety! What am I to say or tell him? He has done it! I shall go on through all my years despite the bitterness of my soul. Those live whom the LORD protects; yours... the life of my spirit. You have given me health and life; thus is my bitterness transformed into peace. You have preserved my life from the pit of destruction, When you cast behind your back all my sins.
For it is not the nether world that gives you thanks, nor death that praises you; Neither do those who go down into the pit await your kindness.
The living, the living give you thanks, as I do today. Fathers declare to their sons, O God, your faithfulness. The LORD is our saviour; we shall sing to stringed instruments In the house of the LORD all the days of our life.​
Isaiah then ordered a poultice of figs to be taken and applied to the boil, that he might recover. Then Hezekiah asked, What is the sign that I shall go up to the temple of the LORD?
Isaiah 38:9-22

It's an interesting reflection on the doings and words of the dead who may not be among the elect.
 
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