Is the Account of Adam and Eve LITERAL?

[hedrick]

hedrick, I think you and I define the term, Christian, quite differently.

Maybe. I define it as faith in Christ. You define it as faith in the Bible?

 

[MennoSota]

Maybe. I define it as faith in Christ. You define it as faith in the Bible?

No, that's not it. Although, perhaps your Christ is not the Christ of the Bible.

 

[hedrick]

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity. With the Fall this became death as we know it: a matter of pain and fear.

For the purposes of this questions you seem to be accepting the usual scientific view of origins. In that case you're right that death was always here, and there was no unique Adam and Eve. But I don't think death has the character described by Calvin for animals. It seems to be something specific to humans with enough intelligence to understand what's happening, but insufficient faith for it to have the significance Calvin describes as the pre-Fall ideal. Hence it's part of the Fall, even if there was no ideal pre-Fall period.

 

[Pedrito]

I must confess that sometimes it gives me the willies when I see people refusing to follow the science which proves the literality of the Genesis account, and its being composed of highly compressed information.

Yes. The formation of the Earth was exactly as described in Genesis 1, from the vantage point of an observer on or near the Earth's surface. The question is, how did that ancient author know what that process was?

Yes. God did take six yom (days, parts of days, time periods) to do his creative work. They just weren't 24 hour days as some religionists insist.

Yes. There was a being (referred to as the serpent, as we can refer to someone evil as "that snake"), who communicated with the first human female. Elsewhere we learn that that being was Lucifer, the mighty one who was given the privelege of being in the special garden with the pinnacle of God's self-replicating creation. It was in the garden that Lucifer first revealed himself as Satan, the deceiver.

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I could go on.

But let me ask a make or break question, with a preface.

Yes. God created mankind from the dust of the ground. Every human is so formed, and returns to dust when he or she dies. Did He do so by direct zapping (as it were), or by a definable process?

The make or break question is:

Is there science – very specific science -- that attests to the truth and accuracy of the statement attributed to the first human male: "This [is] now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. [She] shall be called Woman because [she] was taken out of man"?

If so, what is that science? (And how does it show up the common mistranslation of Genesis 1:22?)

Identify that science, and a whole lot of things become clear.

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Unfortunately, many people won't want to know what that science is, and the wonders it reveals. Because they fear any challenge to their belief system from which they derive their comfort, whichever one it may be.

But the wonders are there.

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Finally, let it be noted that sometimes the information in Genesis is expressed in ways that ensured specific scientific truth would be passed down to us (yes, to us) through generations of people who could have no understanding in any way of that science.

 

[Pedrito]

Josiah in Post #1 stated:

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

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Death has indeed existed since life first appeared on the Earth. But not inherent, degenerative death. That is reserved for the more complex, advanced life forms.

The basic life forms such as microbes and viruses do not die as long as they remain in a non-hostile environment and have an adequate source of nutrition. They simply divide and become two. There are now two living creatures formed from the one, and that original one did not die.

In-built, inherent death, based on natural degeneration, is the preserve more comlex life forms, as already stated.

In the case of the first recorded humans, God moved them to the special garden whuch contained the tree of life. Read the narrative carefully. Consuming the fruit of the tree of life was the antidote to pre-programmed degeneration.

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And with respect to preexisting members of the homo sapiens life form, the Creation narrative indicates that the beings called Adam and Eve were distinctly different from all other life forms cohabiting the Earth. The make or break question in Post #24 is a clue to the path of investigation which confirms that. Only those two had the intimate, breakable relationship with their Creator. The Fall and sin constituted the breaking of it.

Anyway, if the record of all homo sapiens being wiped out except for Noah and his family can be trusted, the existence of other branches formerly, is immaterial.

If the record cannot be trusted, then Josiah had better hope that he has descended from Adam’s line. Unless the Bible is mistaken, when it identifies the descendants of Adam as the ones being saved.

And if the Bible is mistaken… Oh dear! There is no definitive authority on which to base our faith. We are left with religionism.

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Because of its demonstrable and remarkable internal consistency (even if the denominations of Christendom appear to be demonstrating the opposite), I’ll put my money on the Bible’s being the authoritative source of God’s revelation to mankind. (Which includes me as a recipient, amazingly enough.)

 

[Arsenios]

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation....
and thus the Fall and "sin."
And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.

Without it, the Bible is a fairy tale...
By this account, Good and evil are discerned, and can be...
With it, we see that we are born fallen, having both Good and evil in us in our fallen state...
We find the Blessing of our profound need for labors in God's curse of Adam...
Yes, the Curse of God is a Blessing for Adam...
for only by his own labors can he eat...
As a dietary matter and as a Spiritual one...

But here is the one thing that has to be kept in mind...
The account of First Man and First Woman in Paradise and their fall from it resulting in their expulsion from it and their inability to return is indeed the basis for our need of a Savior... For not only do we need to regain the Garden, but to mature as techne tou theou - Children of God - into adults as members of the Body of our Lord Who established His Body here on earth by means of His Incarnation into human flesh in the Blessed Virgin...

So that while we can see the story as an allegory, like Plato's Cave, our desire to do so is based in our "diminished capacity" as fallen creatures in a fallen creation... We use logic and imagination, you see, and thereby think we can have an allegorical "understanding" of what is but a philosophic Mythos to illustrate and name a condition of the soul...

This is why the Christian Faith is Mystery, and not a Logical Deduction/Projection... Our rational faculty is what we need to deal with the fallenness of ourselves and creation now, but prior to the Fall of Adam, this was not how he cognitively functioned... When we try to reduce the Faith to our logical proofs from anything, the Bible included, we err... So yes the account IS historical, but the history it records is from almost a "middle earth" time that from our perspective seems like the invention of Myth to show a truth, when in fact, pretty much the reverse is true... We are all in reform school FOR the sake of the reality of pre-Fall Adam's Creation, which was very Good, and not like it is today...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity. With the Fall this became death as we know it: a matter of pain and fear.

This is an interesting point - one that I wondered about some time ago. From the biblical account, I wondered if physical death didn't enter in until the fall. Imo, "death" isn't suggested until here:

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Unless it was a statement of a truth that had already been.
Just one of those things my mind wonders about

 

[Pedrito]

@hedrick in Post #23 stated:

I don't think anyone has responded to this part specifically. You might be interested in Calvin's suggestion. He says that without the Fall, Adam and Eve would still have left this life. God didn't intend us to be permanently here. But without the Fall it would have been a peaceful transition to eternity...

Once again it would appear that human-based (fallen-human-based) philosophy is taking precedence over Holy Revelation.

I remember hearing some years ago, Woodrow Kroll opening a "Back to the Bible" program with the words "God made Man to be with Him in Heaven". I wondered at the time, what Scripture he had based that on.

In the visible plan of God, members of the nation Israel, and only members of the nation Israel, were to become members of the Church. It was because of their disbelief that pre-allocated Jews were broken away from that privileged position, and Gentiles were given the chance to be grafted into it. (Romans 11)

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So what has God actually told us regarding the matter of human future? (Please check the contexts of the following. Space permits only the concise extracts.)

Psalm 115:16: The heavens, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD's; but the earth He has given to the sons of men.

Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.

Isaiah 45:18: For so says Jehovah the Creator of the heavens, He [is] God, forming the earth and making it; He makes it stand, not creating it empty, [but] forming it to be inhabited. I [am] Jehovah, and [there is] no other.

Matthew 6:9-10: 9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as [it is] in Heaven.

Psalm 37:9: For evildoers shall be cut off; but those who wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37:11: But the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the overflowing of peace.

Psalm 37:29: The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever.

Matthew 5:5: Blessed [are] the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.

2 Peter 3:13: But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Micah 4:3-5: 3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, And they shall not still learn war.
4 But they shall sit each one under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be no trembling; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken,
5 For all peoples will walk, [each] one in the name of his god; and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.

Revelation 15:4: Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only [are] holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

Matthew 5:5: Blessed [are] the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.

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Note that Jesus ratified what the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures stated.

Maybe there is more to the Gospel that both Jesus Himself, and the apostles, proclaimed - more than we are commonly taught.

 

[pinacled]

This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




I largely agree....

Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



- Josiah.

Any one teaching a separation between literal or plain meaning is a false teacher..

If there is no foundation?

I've seen a few trends recently published by certain writers that is news to be warned about.
And the publishing faculties will be dealt with swiftly for promoting lies..

One unpleasant teaching I ran in to was somewhat subtle. They used the account of iyov (job to lure unexpecting victims into arguing against iyov. Initiating a conversation to bring readers into allignment with the accuser.

doing so they tempted people into calling The All Mighty a liar.

If God says iyov is blamless and upright!
He Is..

Be vigilant brothers and sister in Christ.

 

[pinacled]

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="children+of+god"&qs_version=NIV

 

[pinacled]

Any one teaching a separation between literal or plain meaning is a false teacher..

If there is no foundation?

I've seen a few trends recently published by certain writers that is news to be warned about.
And the publishing faculties will be dealt with swiftly for promoting lies..

One unpleasant teaching I ran in to was somewhat subtle. They used the account of iyov (job to lure unexpecting victims into arguing against iyov. Initiating a conversation to bring readers into allignment with the accuser.

doing so they tempted people into calling The All Mighty a liar.

If God says iyov is blamless and upright!
He Is..

Be vigilant brothers and sister in Christ.

As for false teachers ignoring literal..or plain meaning.


The Resurrection of Christ
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”

 

[pinacled]

This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




I largely agree....

Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



- Josiah.

ole paul and athens reminds me of some of the forums ive visited.

After passing through Amphipolis and Apollonia, Sha’ul and Sila came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue. 2 According to his usual practice, Sha’ul went in; and on three Shabbats he gave them drashes from the Tanakh, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and that “this Yeshua whom I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah.” 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and threw in their lot with Sha’ul and Sila, as did a great many of the Greek men who were “God-fearers,” and not a few of the leading women.

5 But the unbelieving Jews grew jealous; so they got together some vicious men from the riffraff hanging around in the market square, collected a crowd and started a riot in the city. They attacked Jason’s house, hoping to bring Sha’ul and Sila out to the mob. 6 But when they didn’t find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city authorities and shouted, “These men who have turned the whole world upside down have come here too! 7 And Jason has let them stay in his home! All of them are defying the decrees of the Emperor; because they assert that there is another king, Yeshua!” 8 Their words threw the crowd and the authorities into a turmoil, 9 so that only after Jason and the others had posted bond did they let them go. 10 But as soon as night fell, the brothers sent Sha’ul and Sila off to Berea.

As soon as they arrived, they went to the synagogue. 11 Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the Tanakh every day to see if the things Sha’ul was saying were true. 12 Many of them came to trust, as did a number of prominent Greek women and not a few Greek men.

13 But when the unbelieving Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had been proclaimed by Sha’ul in Berea as well, they went there too to make trouble and agitate the crowds. 14 The brothers sent Sha’ul away at once to go down to the seacoast, while Sila and Timothy stayed behind. 15 Sha’ul’s escort went with him as far as Athens, then left with instructions for Sila and Timothy to come as quickly as they could.

16 While Sha’ul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him was disturbed at the sight of the city full of idols. 17 So he began holding discussions in the synagogue with the Jews and the “God-fearers,” and in the market square every day with the people who happened to be there.

18 Also a group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers started meeting with him. Some asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others, because he proclaimed the Good News about Yeshua and the resurrection, said, “He sounds like a propagandist for foreign gods.” 19 They took and brought him before the High Council, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 Some of the things we are hearing from you strike us as strange, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners living there used to spend their spare time talking or hearing about the latest intellectual fads.)

22 Sha’ul stood up in the Council meeting and said, “Men of Athens: I see how very religious you are in every way! 23 For as I was walking around, looking at your shrines,
I even found an altar which had been inscribed, ‘To An Unknown God.’ So, the one whom you are already worshipping in ignorance — this is the one I proclaim to you.

24 “The God who made the universe and everything in it, and who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in man-made temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands, as if he lacked something; since it is he himself who gives life and breath and everything to everyone.

26 “From one man he made every nation living on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the limits of their territories and the periods when they would flourish. 27 God did this so that people would look for him and perhaps reach out and find him although in fact, he is not far from each one of us, 28 ‘for in him we live and move and exist.’ Indeed, as some of the poets among you have said, ‘We are actually his children.’ 29 So, since we are children of God, we shouldn’t suppose that God’s essence resembles gold, silver or stone shaped by human technique and imagination.

30 “In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins. 31 For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”

32 At the mention of a resurrection of dead people, some began to scoff; while others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” 33 So Sha’ul left the meeting. 34 But some men stayed with him and came to trust, including the High Council member Dionysius; there was also a woman named Damaris; and others came to trust along with them.

 

[Pedrito]

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This is a totally off-topic attempt at humour. Humour only – no undercurrents. I did not know where else to post it.

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pinacled’s status is given as: “A graphic novel coming soon”.

My question is: "Will the graphic novel contain any novel graphics?"

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[Pedrito]

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Josiah in Post #1 (re Adam and Eve and the Fall of mankind):

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.

We have seen the word “mystery” used a lot in CH.

The problem is that that word “mystery” can be conveniently used (and often is) as a cop out – an excuse for not finding out what the Bible says on a matter, or for not acknowledging what the Bible does say when that revealed knowledge is inconvenient.

Let’s see what the Bible itself has to say about “mystery”. The Greek word “musterion” also means “secret”.

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Mark 4:11. The mystery of the kingdom of God (both visible and invisible, warts and all, we understand) is to be understood by True Christians.
Romans 11:25. The former secret that gentiles would replace pre-qualified Israelites in the church, was revealed.
Romans 11:25. However, Israel will be restored once a condition relating to those gentiles is fulfilled.
Romans 16:25. The mystery of the Gospel, as taught by the apostles, had been revealed. (See 1 Corinthians 1:17-25)
1 Corinthians 2:7. That mystery is understood (only) by True Christians. (See 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
1 Corinthians 15:21. Jesus will return while some True Christians are still alive. (See 1 Thessalonians 3:13-18)

To save space: God will establish a unified kingdom via Christ (Ephesians 1:9); Gentiles would become fellow-heirs (Ephesians 3:3-9); the marriage relationship was (and still is) a type (picture, model) of Christ and His church (Ephesians 5:32); the Gospel is no longer a mystery (Ephesians 6:19); gentiles would know the riches of God’s glory ( Christ in you, the hope of glory) (Colossians 1:26-27); the mystery of Christ is being proclaimed (Colossians 4:3); a mystery of iniquity was already observable at work, and would be revealed once an existing control factor was removed; potential identification was made by some early church writers, and possibly hinted at in 2 Timothy 1:17 – why didn’t the local church tell Onesiphorus where Paul was? – and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. (2 Thessalonians 2:7); the mystery of the faith was known (see Hebrews 6:1-2) (1 Timothy 3:9); the mystery of godliness was revealed in the example of Jesus (1 Timothy 3:16). Even the symbolic mysteries in the book of Revelation are explained.

So there is no more mystery. No mystery remains. All has been revealed with respect to God’s purposes and the Church (the True and the Visible) in our time. The Bible speaks of no on-going mystery in that context.

But will that discourage the use of “mystery” as a cop-out, by those who rely on cop-outs to shield their beliefs?

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[MoreCoffee]

This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:

<quote from a pastor>

I largely agree....

Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.



- Josiah.

I do not know if the story is about exactly two people from whom the whole of humanity are descended. It could be. If read at face value it seems possible. But it also looks like the creation story is not like prose we'd expect in a report of historical events. The days of creation has a litany like feel with the repeated words There was evening and there was morning: the <insert ordinal number here> day. and the count of six creation activity days and one rest day as the seventh day may have significance as either the source of the seven day week (as the story itself appears to suggest when read in conjunction with Exodus 20) or as a reflection of the seven day week that Israel had enshrined in the Law (when read in conjunction with Deuteronomy 5). The story of Adam and Eve given in chapter two is interesting but appears somewhat different from the one near the end of chapter one. And the story of the fall in chapter three has a snake that talks to Eve which is unusual too. What to make of these things is a cause of considerable debate and always has been among both Jews and Christians and maybe even among Islamic scholars too. So it seems to me that the story looks like it may be 'literal' but it has signs of not being so too.

 

[TurtleHare]

There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?

 

[Arsenios]

This question was presented to our resident pastor, who posted this:




I largely agree....

Although PERSONALLY, I'm pretty open to an allegorical "spin" on this.

ONE of the things that leads me to that possibility is the very names "ADAM" and "EVE".

I think it is POSSIBLE to "read" this as an affirmation that mankind has "fallen" and is sinful.

I'd "buy" that completely except I agree with Pastor Richart, that DOES seem to cause a problem with the point of Saint Paul in his letters of Christ as the NEW Adam, the UN-Adam. IF a literal individual person by the moniker of "Adam" did not exist and this "Fall" did not literally happen, that DOES seem to generate some "problems" with some of Paul's points.....

On the other hand, it is OBVIOUS that death has existed since Creation.... and thus the Fall and "sin." And it seems obvious Adam and Eve were not the only homo sapiens on the Earth at the time....

I'm willing to chuck this up largely to MYSTERY. And pretty much irrelevant.

- Josiah.

The major thing to remember is that Adam and Eve were not created fallen, nor had creation fallen with them...

So we do not know, as born under death in Adam, what an un-fallen life IS...

Nor do we perceive a creation that is as it was prior to the Fall...

We do not know what "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil" might actually mean in an unfallen creation in the Garden of our Lord...

So we should be careful not to dumb it down with words like literal, allegory or analogy...

Nor should we insist at all in understanding it intellectually...

Better to enter the Mystery of the Faith in purity of heart...

It will be revealed when God in His Good Time decides we are ready for that revelation...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?

Because if we do not believe it then how can we ever make the important things come true such as justice, mercy, truth, and compassion?

 

[Arsenios]

There's way too many strange things to believe in the bible...
so why are y'all believing any of it at all then, huh?

When you have met with Truth,
you know that it is not the Bible that is in question,
but our fallen,
and dare I say rationally deductive,
understanding,
that is in question...
Understanding doesn't all come at once...

Arsenios

 

[TurtleHare]

When you have met with Truth,
you know that it is not the Bible that is in question,
but our fallen,
and dare I say rationally deductive,
understanding,
that is in question...
Understanding doesn't all come at once...

Arsenios

That's why by faith is so important instead of by works.