Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[Albion]

well I'm certain there is a contradiction in the Bible, and I have given my explaination. Now, what explaination do you give for "uncertainty"?

Having been persuaded that there APPEARS to be a contradiction, we may be unable to reconcile the messages. What we are not at liberty to do is discard the verses that get in the way of what we want some others to be saying to us.

 

[DanielL]

APPEARS

What is your explaination then? why does it only appear and is not a real contradiction? are you really going to leave me in the dark?

 

[Albion]

What is your explaination then? why does it only appear and is not a real contradiction? are you really going to leave me in the dark?

Well, we have no particular verses in mind.

But the situation can be described in general terms. If there appears to be a conflict, it's not necessarily so. It's just that we have not understood the meaning of one or the other or both.

There are all sorts of verses that people who are not Bible literate have thought were in conflict, and it turned out that it wasn't so at all. For example, I have run into people who insisted that when Jesus said that the Father and he are one, he meant that he WAS the Father, so that would appear to contradict verses in which Jesus prays to the Father or speaks of the Father as outside of himself. Yes, this looks like a contradiction. Except that it isn't so; it's just that they took the meaning of that verse to be other than what it actually is/was.

 

[Albion]

well I'm certain there is a contradiction in the Bible, and I have given my explaination. Now, what explaination do you give for "uncertainty"? Can you explain how it was an eye for an eye and then Jesus rebuked that?

Of course, but I'd rather you used almost any search engine in order to access one of the many online sites that explain this. The example you chose here is actually not one of the more troublesome cases.

 

[DanielL]

If there appears to be a conflict, it's not necessarily so.

Will you ever explain the contradiction? Can you? -You simply said it is not a contradiction, as if you were God. You only presented me with dogma, not an explaination..

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The contradictions aren't even contradictions but poor reasoning on your part.

How do you reconcile the fact that eating animals causes them pain with the idea that causing unnecessary pain is evil? Eating animals, in light of the fact that we are able to thrive on a plant-based diet, is unnecessary.

 

[Lamb]

How do you reconcile the fact that eating animals causes them pain with the idea that causing unnecessary pain is evil? Eating animals, in light of the fact that we are able to thrive on a plant-based diet, is unnecessary.

Animals probably were in pain as the sacrifices were made in the temple, and God commanded those sacrifices.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Animals probably were in pain as the sacrifices were made in the temple, and God commanded those sacrifices.

I am aware. That's what I am asking: how do you reconcile the claim that God is omnibenevolent with the commandments given by God to people to cause pain and death to some of the other creatures that He created? Also, how do you reconcile the claim of His omnipotence with the existence of such a system, despite the fact that we are able to imagine an alternative system that doesn't include suffering?

 

[Albion]

I am aware. That's what I am asking: how do you reconcile the claim that God is omnibenevolent with the commandments given by God to people to cause pain and death to some of the other creatures that He created?

According to Scripture, the bounty of the Earth was created for Man's use. It was fishermen whom Jesus called to be his closest associates, if you recall, and He even helped them to haul in their catch. So, there isn't any doubt about animals being made available to us as a food source and for other benefits.

At the same time, we are to be good stewards of the Earth, so the senseless slaughter or torturing of animals is not included.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

According to Scripture, the bounty of the Earth was created for Man's use. It was fishermen whom Jesus called to be his closest associates, if you recall, and He even helped them to haul in their catch. So, there isn't any doubt about animals being made available to us as a food source and for other benefits.

At the same time, we are to be good stewards of the Earth, so the senseless slaughter or torturing of animals is not included.

You're... not addressing my points. You're giving me examples of things I find immoral from the Bible in an attempt to justify the things that I find immoral in the Bible. Please try again without appealing to Scripture this time. Appeal to reason.

I can imagine a system in which the fall did happen, but humans remained fruit-eaters and animals did not turn into carnivores. Why doesn't such a world exist? Adam and Eve sinned against God and they were punished with a limited lifespan, with having to work the land with difficulty for Adam, and increased pangs in childbearing for Eve. Ok. Where did the carnivores come from? Where did the bacteria and maggots that eat corpses come from? Why don't corpses simply remain unaltered or turn back into dust without being eaten by other creatures?

 

[Albion]

You're... not addressing my points. You're giving me examples of things I find immoral from the Bible in an attempt to justify the things that I find immoral in the Bible. Please try again without appealing to Scripture this time. Appeal to reason.

Why, on the "Christian Theology" forum, should we appeal to reason instead of God?

What's more, you included God when you framed your question to us in the first place: ("That's what I am asking: how do you reconcile the claim that God is omnibenevolent with the commandments given by God to people to cause pain and death").

However, if there is an answer to your question that does not take account of God's will and his revelation, it would be that animals, when killed, provide food that is necessary for good health, plus also such additional benefits as medical research, clothing, and various tools or equipment that make our lives easier. That's from reason.

In addition, your imagining is shortsighted. A world with eight billion human inhabitants plus many animal species could not support all of these totally on vegetables. Yes, for the small number of people who are vegans, it's fine for them, but it would not work if that were required of everyone.

Also, what you are imagining is a world that would not have anything else that we derive from animals but that isn't food. Your concern that cruelty to animals not be part of the human experience omits the fact that we cause pain to animals when men in less advanced parts of the world continue to ride horses or camels or hitch animals to plows, etc.. That's without them eating the animals.

Try imagining a world in which billions of people have to press every last acre into the production of grains and vegetables, deforesting the woodlots that produce oxygen for the atmosphere and destroying the viability of many animal species in the process.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

However, if there is an answer to your question that does not take account of God's will and his revelation, it would be that animals, when killed, provide food that is necessary for good health, plus also such additional benefits as medical research, clothing, and various tools or equipment that make our lives easier. That's from reason.

None of those are necessary except for medical research. In present day society, humans can thrive on a plant-based diet, wear clothes made from materials manufactured from plants, and industrialization made farming the land easy without any animals.

 

[Albion]

None of those are necessary except for medical research. In present day society, humans can thrive on a plant-based diet, wearing clothes made from materials manufactured from pants, and industrialization made farming the land easy without any animals.

I only scratched the surface of the reasons why your imaginary world would not work.

If you didn't read all of my previous post, possibly because I was still writing, please take a look.

 

[tango]

None of those are necessary except for medical research. In present day society, humans can thrive on a plant-based diet, wearing clothes made from materials manufactured from pants, and industrialization made farming the land easy without any animals.

Honestly, your posts look like you're trying to say "God isn't saying what I think he should be saying, please justify this".

If God says we can eat animals then we can eat animals. If you don't want to eat animals then you are welcome to abstain from eating animals. If you're unhappy with what Scripture says then a discussion in a Christian Theology forum may not be the best place. If you want to argue that Scripture isn't what God actually has to say, or that God got it wrong, perhaps the Speculative Theology forum would be a good place to take it.

 

[Josiah]

How do you reconcile the fact that eating animals causes them pain with the idea that causing unnecessary pain is evil?

What Scripture states that causing pain in animals is a sin?

While I agree that death usually involves pain, that's not necessarily so.

Eating animals, in light of the fact that we are able to thrive on a plant-based diet, is unnecessary.

Just because we can survive without owning a car doesn't mean owning a car therefore is sin.



The Hebrew word in the Fifth Commandment means "to murder, to purposely kill an innocent, defenseless human." It is not the same word as to kill an animal. If it is forbidden, sinful and "unlawful" to kill an animal, then God COMMANDED His people to sin when He told them to kill a lamb in Exodus 12:6. And I don't think God commands people to sin. IMO, if God specifically commands something, it's probably safe to assume it's not sinful, forbidden and unlawful.






.


.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If God says we can eat animals then we can eat animals.

Not if my moral compass tells me that it's wrong and this moral compass was acquired after I started seeking God. When I was living in sin and didn't care about religion, I didn't even think about the morality of eating meat. But now that I've started seeking God, it seems to me like it's completely wrong and absurd. And I'm supposed to shrug it off and go, "oh, well, the Bible says it's right, and people say that the Bible is the word of God, so I better listen to those people"? I don't want to do that.

If you want to argue that Scripture isn't what God actually has to say, or that God got it wrong, perhaps the Speculative Theology forum would be a good place to take it.

Yeah, when discussions derail, it's pretty difficult to keep up with all these subforums. I didn't make the thread in this subforum. The mods are able to move it to the appropriate place.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

What Scripture states that causing pain in animals is a sin?

What Scripture says that Scripture lists everything that is right and is wrong? We usually use common sense to deduce that. Scripture says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Why can't that be applied to all beings that (to our knowledge) experience pain, such as animals?

Just because we can survive without owning a car doesn't mean owning a car therefore is sin..

Cars are not sentient. That's a flawed analogy.

 

[Josiah]

Not if my moral compass tells me that it's wrong and this moral compass was acquired after I started seeking God.

Friend, YOU feeling that God is calling you to do or not do something is not substantiation for it THUS being something all must do or not do.

Friend, I don't think any here would fault you if you CHOSE to not eat meat for your own personal reasons (including that you might feel God is so calling you). I think the "problem" comes when it's stated as a command to all (especially when it's argued the BIBLE so declares). I know MANY vegetarians (of various kinds) but not one of them disapproves of OTHERS eating meat. And I know of none of them who are condemned by others for their personal choice in this matter.



.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Friend, YOU feeling that God is calling you to do or not do something is not substantiation for it THUS being something all must do or not do.

Friend, I don't think any here would fault you if you CHOSE to not eat meat for your own personal reasons (including that you might feel God is so calling you). I think the "problem" comes when it's stated as a command to all (especially when it's argued the BIBLE so declares). I know MANY vegetarians (of various kinds) but not one of them disapproves of OTHERS eating meat. And I know of none of them who are condemned by others for their personal choice in this matter.



.

While I would prefer if people became vegetarians, I am not trying to convince any of you to do so. I am merely trying to make me understand if you have an innate feeling that it is wrong to kill animals for food (which some of you admitted that you do), and why you are dismissing this feeling in favor of the writings compiled in the Book known as the Bible. What is it about the Bible that makes it above your personal feelings of right and wrong? Especially when these feelings arise after praying to God.

 

[Josiah]

Cars are not sentient. That's a flawed analogy.

Friend, here is your stated apologetic:

in light of the fact that we are able to thrive on a plant-based diet, is unnecessary.

Friend, you are evading the obvious point. You stated that you can survive without meat and that proves that eating meat is sinful. I noted that we can survive without owning a car too but that doesn't prove that ergo owning a car is sin. Your logic is non-existent. Your apologetic there is non-existent.

We usually use common sense to deduce that. Scripture says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Why can't that be applied to all beings that (to our knowledge) experience pain, such as animals?

For the same reason we should not apply it to flowers. "Do unto others" obviously applies to PEOPLE.


Again, the Hebrew word in the Fifth Commandment means "to murder, to purposely kill an innocent, defenseless human." It is not the same word as to kill an animal. If it is forbidden, sinful and "unlawful" to kill an animal, then God COMMANDED His people to sin when He told them to kill a lamb in Exodus 12:6. And I don't think God commands people to sin. IMO, if God specifically commands something, it's probably safe to assume it's not sinful, forbidden and unlawful.


You may personally choose to do or not do something, for reasons of your own. But it's another thing to proclaim that such is commanded or forbidden by God (especially to claim the BIBLE so states).



.