Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[Lanman87]

I mean, I start with His Perfect Nature. Which means He didn't change the Law, herbs and fruits are still food, and they always will be, because the LORD is Perfect.

How do you know the change in instruction isn't perfect? After the flood the circumstances of mankind changed. Circumstance on earth Changed so God changed His instruction to man for mankind's benefit. Wouldn't it have been imperfect if God had kept the same instructions to man when man's needs changed?

Your repeating that God is perfect therefore He cannot change is a silly argument. God didn't change. God is love and always does what is best for His people and to fulfill His plan on earth. If that is to instruct mankind to eat plants then that is what He tells us. If things change and He tells us to eat meat and sacrifice animals then that is also part of His perfect plan.

You are judging God and declaring Him imperfect because He doesn't hold up to your personal definition of perfect.

I've seen some weird beliefs on the internet buy yours takes the cake.

 

[DanielL]

So animals can be guilty?

Yes, the snake was a beast of the field, and it lied, and it was declared guilty by God, and punished accordingly.

 

[DanielL]

God changed His instruction

The Witness of God is Greater:

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

[Lanman87]

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

If you decide to wear a raincoat on a rainy day when you thought it would be sunny does that change who you are? If you plan on eating potatoes but then change your mind and decide to eat corn, does that mean you have changed? Are you a different person? Did you cease to be one person and become someone else?

 

[tango]

Yes, the snake was a beast of the field, and it lied, and it was declared guilty by God, and punished accordingly.

Cool, so I'll figure the chicken I diced up to put into tonight's dinner was also guilty. Sounds good.

It's still far from clear why a carnivorous animal is deemed guilty and deserving of death just for being carnivorous but, you know, whatever. I guess if an animal can be guilty it can be killed and if it's killed it seems a shame to waste it.

 

[DanielL]

If you

Don't compare God to creation. God is Perfect, we are not.

the chicken I diced up to put into tonight's dinner was also guilty

No, the chicken were innocent. You are the one that's guilty, because it is abomination to condemn the guiltless. It is sin, abomination, against the will of God. And also when you taste of flesh, you eat the body of death.

why a carnivorous animal is deemed guilty

Because they are not carnivorous, they eat flesh in disobedience to God, same way man does. They were both made to eat plants, and to eating plants shall they both return.

 

[Lanman87]

Don't compare God to creation. God is Perfect, we are not.

What a cop out answer. I was pointing out that changing your mind does not change who you are. That is true of God and that is true of humans, who were made in God's image.

My faith is in a God who is perfect and who I Trust to do the perfect thing. You don't trust Him to do the perfect thing and explain away or ignore anything that doesn't line up with your personal idea of who God is. You make God into who you think He should be instead of who the Scriptures reveal Him to be. Therefore you have to ignore large portions of God Breathed Scripture in order to make God fit into your personal definition of God.

 

[tango]

Don't compare God to creation. God is Perfect, we are not.

No, the chicken were innocent. You are the one that's guilty, because it is abomination to condemn the guiltless. It is sin, abomination, against the will of God. And also when you taste of flesh, you eat the body of death.

The lion and bear were only doing what they needed to do. It's not their fault they weren't given teeth designed to chew on leaves and broccoli. I guess God dropped the ball again. Your worldview really does require God to be a bit of a putz...

It's fascinating to know I "eat the body of death". I thought my wife served a tasty chicken soup last night. I had no idea she'd managed to dice up the grim reaper and put him in it. I thought it tasted a bit different though, perhaps you're onto something there. And all this while I thought it was just down to a few herbs and spices she'd put in it.

Because they are not carnivorous, they eat flesh in disobedience to God, same way man does. They were both made to eat plants, and to eating plants shall they both return.

So why do they have big meat-tearing teeth? Did God design them wrong? If they were made to eat plants it's a shame nobody told them that. Poor lion and bear, expected to live up to a standard that apparently nobody even bothered to explain to them. Maybe that's why the dinosaurs went extinct - maybe God judged them for having the wrong sort of teeth and eating each other. Of course the herbivores just got caught up in the carnage along with the carnivores. Maybe God gave them the wrong teeth and forgot to tell them not to use the big bitey teeth they had. Silly God. The big bitey teeth are just for show perhaps, even though they aren't very good at chewing up broccoli.

Still, at least animals that eat other animals can be declared guilty and killed and eaten.

On a related note, should I execute my cat next time it catches a mouse? I'd hate to give safe harbor to such a wanton sinner. Or maybe I should take it to church and force it to sit through a few sermons until it comes to appreciate the error of its ways. Baptism seems like a bad idea, given the whole thing with cats and water.

 

[DanielL]

changing your mind

When you say God changed His Mind, you imply His Mind wasn't Perfect, and thereby forsake the Perfect Mind of the Perfect God, and adopt the imperfect idol who changed his imperfect mind twice on food.

The True God is Perfect, that includes a Perfect Mind, incappable of change. Some people would even tell you that Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is the Mind of God, or the Plan. So, you are actually adopting a false Christ too. An imperfect christ that changed. Which is against Scripture.

I had no idea she'd managed to dice up the grim reaper and put him in it.

The chicked is dead. You eat the body of death, in this case, the dead chicken. Eating the dead. Living off of death. Feasting on dead corpses.

-The lion and the bear were made to eat herbs, but they changed and corrupted their ways. That doesn't mean the Law changed. They are still meant to eat herbs, and to eating herbs they shall return. The lion shall eat straw. Just like in the garden, it never changed, never will.

And even if the animal is guilty, you still can't eat it, if you do you are the one that guilty, because your law is herbs and fruits.

 

[Lanman87]

When you say God changed His Mind,

Strictly speaking, God didn't change His mind. He implemented His perfect plan by establishing various covenants with man. Because God is omnipotent He always knew the plan and our reaction to it and what He would do about it. He knew we would rebel in the garden and that He would send a flood and that He would tell Noah to eat meat and would give the Law to Moses and institute the Passover and sacrificial law. He knew that all of it would be to prepare mankind for the ultimate sacrifice of His son on the cross.

The bottom line is you pick and choose scripture and that places you outside of orthodox Christianity. Whatever games you play in your head to invalidate much of Scripture doesn't change that fact.

Good look getting anyone to believe you over the word of God.

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:11-21 NIV

 

[DanielL]

He implemented His perfect plan

The Plan is herbs and fruits. The Plan cannot change, because it is Perfect.

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

King David was forgiven without any bloodshed. He confessed and the LORD forgave him.

The entire city of Nineveh was forgiven without any bloodshed.

 

[tango]

The chicked is dead. You eat the body of death, in this case, the dead chicken. Eating the dead. Living off of death. Feasting on dead corpses.

Eating a dead animal isn't really "eating the body of death" even if you are looking to write using exaggerated imagery. Ultimately you can call it whatever you want - we're allowed to eat animals if we want to.

-The lion and the bear were made to eat herbs, but they changed and corrupted their ways. That doesn't mean the Law changed. They are still meant to eat herbs, and to eating herbs they shall return. The lion shall eat straw. Just like in the garden, it never changed, never will.

So the lion and bear are dirty sinners? You didn't answer my question about whether I should execute (or maybe exorcise) my cat when he catches a mouse. Because, you know, cats do that. They've got teeth designed to kill a mouse quickly.

For that matter, what about snakes? Are they supposed to coil very tightly around a sprig of broccoli rather than eating rodents?

And even if the animal is guilty, you still can't eat it, if you do you are the one that guilty, because your law is herbs and fruits.

So you keep saying, despite a tidal wave of Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

 

[DanielL]

Scriptural evidence to the contrary

-There can't be no Scriptural evidence of the contrary, because Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

-Herbs and fruits are food forever because God is Perfect, and He doesn't change. If you want to eat flesh, you must deny God first, and adopt an imperfect idol that changed his imperfect mind. That is your choice, of whom will ye serve, but as for me, I serve the Perfect God.

 

[Albion]

-There can't be no Scriptural evidence of the contrary, because Scripture cannot contradict itself.

As per the scene in that great movie, Blazing Saddles...Who can disagree with Gabby Johnson's authentic frontier gibberish?

 

[tango]

-There can't be no Scriptural evidence of the contrary, because Scripture cannot contradict itself.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

-Herbs and fruits are food forever because God is Perfect, and He doesn't change. If you want to eat flesh, you must deny God first, and adopt an imperfect idol that changed his imperfect mind. That is your choice, of whom will ye serve, but as for me, I serve the Perfect God.

Or you could, you know, actually read the rest of the text rather than cherrypicking the verses that suit your agenda.

If nothing could ever change we'd still be living in Eden. Or we'd still be offering those burnt sacrifices (lambs, pigeons, turtle doves etc, as described in Leviticus... oops, there goes that halfwit God getting it all wrong, again)

Still, good to see you're still blathering on as if "choose who you will serve" supports one argument over another. That's usually a pretty good sign someone doesn't actually have an argument. But that's been pretty obvious for the last several dozen posts now...

 

[DanielL]

gibberish

-If you can't understand Scripture cannot contradict itself, the flaw is on you.

If nothing could ever change we'd still be living in Eden.

Everything can change. What cannot change, however, is God. Nor His Word, nor His Law. Because God is Perfect.

"choose who you will serve"

Yes, this is what everyone has to do. Choose whom will ye serve. Because you can't serve both a Perfect God, and an imperfect idol, at the same time. You have to choose. The Perfect God cannot change His Law, and herbs and fruits are still food, and they always will be, nothing can be put to it. But the imperfect idol, changed his imperfect mind and law twice just on food. Now, we know the True God is Perfect in Nature. But that doesn't stop people from choosing the imperfect idol, in order to keep their sin, lusts and abominations..

 

[Lanman87]

King David was forgiven without any bloodshed. He confessed and the LORD forgave him.

So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen and paid fifty shekels of silver for them. 25 David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then the Lord answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped. 2 Samuel 2:24b NIV

As a Jew David would have regularly offered sacrifices according to the Law of Moses. In 2 Samuel we see David going beyond the Law and building an alter and offering his own sacrifice (Oxen) to the Lord.

The entire city of Nineveh was forgiven without any bloodshed.

The people of Nineveh were not Jews and were not under the Old Testament Law (which hadn't been given yet). God can forgive sins anyway He wants anytime He wants. And God chose the people of Israel and made a covenant with them and gave them instructions in His requirements for Sacrifice. Which included bringing various animals/grain to the Priest for Sacrifice.

All of this was to show the need for the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The sacrifice of bulls and goats weren't enough and the Old Law couldn't really save anyone.

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4

 

[Albion]

-If you can't understand Scripture cannot contradict itself, the flaw is on you.

If Scripture actually did contradict itself, it couldn't be divine revelation. Think about it.

 

[DanielL]

As a Jew David would have regularly offered sacrifices according to the Law of Moses.

David was forgiven because he confessed, not because he shed innocent blood.

Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

God can forgive sins anyway He wants anytime He wants.

Now, you grant me that. He wants people to repent so He can forgive them. That is how it always has been, and always will be.

Priest for Sacrifice

God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor things that are against His Will.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

the need for the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross

-The Sacrifice of Christ is not a blood sacrifice, on this the carnally minded greatly err.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

-His Sacrifice is a True Sacrifice of God. It has nothing to do with carnal red blood, as the carnally minded perceive it to be.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

-His Blood is His Spirit, His Life, Soul, His Truth, His Gospel, His Words, His Knowledge, and so on. These are what will save you. It is spirit that quickeneth.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[DanielL]

If Scripture actually did contradict itself, it couldn't be divine revelation. Think about it.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself, so anything that does, is therefore not Scripture.

-Scripture is clear the LORD doesn't desire nor require blood sacrifices. Anything that says He does, is not Scripture, because Scripture cannot contradict. This is why you must choose whom will ye serve, either the LORD that desires mercy, or the bloodthirsty who demands bloodshed. You can't serve both masters.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.