Is Immersion required by Scripture when a baptism is performed?

[Albion]

It's considered a good symbol to baptize by immersion because, for example, Scripture speaks of being buried with Christ. But is that necessary--according to Scripture--for there to be a valid baptism? Or is it merely optional?

 

[Lamb]

It's considered a good symbol to baptize by immersion because, for example, Scripture speaks of being buried with Christ. But is that necessary--according to Scripture--for there to be a valid baptism? Or is it merely optional?

When God wants something to be done precisely then He gives detailed instructions! There is no water amount required that is found in scripture so it's not the amount that matters.

 

[atpollard]

You have probably heard the story about the Baptist and Prebytrian having a discussion about the proper form of baptism. "If a person is baptized up to his neck, is he really baptized?" the Presbyterian asked.
"No, of course not," the Baptist replied.
"If he is baptized up to his forehead, is that baptism?"
"No," the Baptist said emphatically.
"Well," said the Presbyterian, "that proves that it's the water on the head that really makes the difference!"

(It's a cute joke from a Prebytrian.)

 

[Josiah]

It's considered a good symbol to baptize by immersion because, for example, Scripture speaks of being buried with Christ. But is that necessary--according to Scripture--for there to be a valid baptism? Or is it merely optional?

No.

Scripture nowhere requires (or even suggests this). And we know that at least by 110 AD, Baptism by pouring and sprinkling was not only deemed permissible but was happening, so clearly Christians by the year 110 did NOT see immersion as a requirement. BTW, it was for some of the JEWISH rites but we're not talking about rites in other religions, I assume.

 

[atpollard]

Acts 2:38 NASB Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Strong's G907
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 907: βαπτίζω
βαπτίζω; (imperfect ἐβαπτιζον); future βαπτίσω; 1 aorist ἐβάπτισα; passive (present βαπτίζομαι); imperfect ἐβαπτιζομην; perfect participle βεβαπτισμενος; 1 aorist ἐβαπτίσθην; 1 future βαπτισθήσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐβαπτισαμην; (frequent. (?) from βάπτω, like βαλλίζω from βάλλω); here and there in Plato, Polybius, Diodorus, Strabo, Josephus, Plutarch, others.
I.
1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 (where WH text ῥαντισωνται); Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30; Judith 12:7).
3. metaphorically, to overwhelm, as ἰδιωτας ταῖς ἐισφοραις, Diodorus 1, 73; ὀφλημασι, Plutarch, Galba 21; τῇ συμφορά βεβαπτισμενος, Heliodorus Aeth. 2, 3; and alone, to inflict great and abounding calamities on one: ἐβαπτισαν τήν πόλιν, Josephus, b. j. 4, 3, 3; ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, Isaiah 21:4 the Sept. hence, βαπτίζεσθαι βάπτισμα (cf. Winers Grammar, 225 (211); (Buttmann, 148 (129)); cf. λούεσθαι τό λουτρόν, Aelian de nat. an. 3, 42), to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them, Matthew 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50 (cf. the German etwasauszubadenhaben, and the use of the word e. g. respecting those who cross a river with difficulty, ἕως τῶν μαστῶν οἱ πεζοί βαπτιζόμενοι διέβαινον, Polybius 3, 72, 4; (for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon under the word; also T. J. Conant, βαπτίζειν, its meaning and use, N. Y. 1864 (printed also as an Appendix to their revised version of the Gospel of Matthew by the American Bible Union); and especially four works by J. W. Dale entitled Classic, Judaic, Johannic, Christic, Baptism, Phil. 1867ff; D. B. Ford, Studies on the Bapt. Quest. (including a review of Dr. Dale's works), Bost. 1879)).
II. In the N. T. it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterward by Christ's command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion (see βάπτισμα, 3), viz., an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom; (for patristic references respecting the mode, ministrant, subjects, etc. of the rite, cf. Sophocles Lexicon, under the word; Dict. of Chris. Antiq. under the word Baptism).
a. The word is used absolutely, to administer the rite of ablution, to baptize (Vulg.baptizo; Tertulliantingo,tinguo (cf.metgiro, de corona mil. § 3)): Mark 1:4; John 1:25f, 28; John 3:22f, 26; John 4:2; John 10:40; 1 Corinthians 1:17; with the cognate noun τό βάπτισμα, Acts 19:4; ὁ βαπτίζων substantively equivalent to ὁ βαπτιστής, Mark 6:14 (24 T Tr WH). τινα, John 4:1; Acts 8:38; 1 Corinthians 1:14, 16. Passive to be baptized: Matthew 3:13f, 16; Mark 16:16; Luke 3:21; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12, 13,(Acts 8:36); Acts 10:47; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 1:15 L T Tr WH; 1 Cor 10:2 L T Tr marginal reading. WH marginal reading. Passive in a reflexive sense (i. e. middle, cf. Winers Grammar, § 38, 3), to allow oneself to be initiated by baptism, to receive baptism: Luke (Luke 3:7,12); Luke 7:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 9:18; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; with the cognate noun τό βάπτισμα added, Luke 7:29; 1 aorist middle, 1 Corinthians 10:2 (L T Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading ἐβαπτίσθησαν (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 38, 4 b.)); Acts 22:16. followed by a dative of the thing with which baptism is performed, ὕδατι, see bb. below.
b. with prepositions; aa. εἰς, to mark the element into which the immersion is made: εἰς τόν Ιορδάνην, Mark 1:9. to mark the end: εἰς μετάνοιαν, to bind one to repentance, Matthew 3:11; εἰς τό Ἰωάννου βάπτισμα, to bind to the duties imposed by John's baptism, Acts 19:3 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 397 (371)); εἰς ὄνομα τίνος, to profess the name (see ὄνομα, 2) of one whose follower we become, Matthew 28:19; Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, to obtain the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38; εἰς τόν Μωυσῆν, to follow Moses as a leader, 1 Corinthians 10:2. to indicate the effect: εἰς ἕν σῶμα, to unite together into one body by baptism, 1 Corinthians 12:13; εἰς Χριστόν, εἰς τόν θάνατον αὐτοῦ, to bring by baptism into fellowship with Christ, into fellowship in his death, by which fellowship we have died to sin, Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3 (cf. Meyer on the latter passive, Ellicott on the former). bb. ἐν, with the dative of the thing in which one is immersed: ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, Mark 1:5; ἐν τῷ ὕδατι, John 1:31 (L T Tr WH ἐν ὕδατι, but compare Meyer at the passage (who makes the article deictic)). of the thing used in baptizing: ἐν ὕδατι, Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8 (T WH Tr marginal reading omit; Tr text brackets ἐν); John 1:26, 33; cf. Buttmann, § 133, 19; (cf. Winers Grammar, 412 (384); see ἐν, I. 5 d. α.); with the simple dative, ὕδατι, Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16. ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ, to imbue richly with the Holy Spirit (just as its large bestowment is called an outpouring): Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8 (L Tr brackets ἐν); Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16; with the addition καί πυρί to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i. e. to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell, Matthew 3:11. ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου, by the authority of the Lord, Acts 10:48. cc. Passive ἐπί (L Tr WH ἐν) τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, relying on the name of Jesus Christ, i. e. reposing one's hope on him, Acts 2:38. dd. ὑπέρ τῶν νεκρῶν on behalf of the dead, i. e. to promote their eternal salvation by undergoing baptism in their stead, 1 Corinthians 15:29; cf. (Winers Grammar, 175 (165); 279 (262); 382 (358); Meyer (or Beet) at the passage); especially Neander at the passage; Rückert, Progr. on the passage, Jen. 18 47; Paret in Ewald's Jahrb. d. Biblical Wissensch. ix., p. 247; (cf. B. D. under the word Baptism XII. Alex.'s Kitto ibid. VI.).

So the Greek word meaning to completely plunge under the water, like a sinking ship or washing a dish, is translated as 'baptize' in the following Bible verses:

Matthew 3:6, 3:11, 3:13, 3:14, 3:16, 28:18
Mark 1:4, 1:5, 1:8, 1:9, 6:14, 6:24, 10:38, 10:39, 16:16
Luke 3:7, 3:12, 3:16, 3:21, 7:29, 7:30, 11:38, 12:50
John 1:25, 1:26, 1:28, 1:31, 1:33, 3:22, 3:23, 3:26, 4:1, 4:2, 10:40
Acts 1:5, 2:38, 2:41, 8:12, 8:13, 8:16, 8:36, 8:38, 9:18, 10:47, 10:48, 11:16, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:3, 19:4, 19:5, 22:16
Romans 6:3
1 Corinthians 1:13, 1:14, 1:15, 1:16, 1:17, 10:2, 12:13, 15:29
Galatians 3:27

If God said 'dunk/plunge/immerse' so many times, I lean towards the position that He meant it. There are other words for 'pour' that could have been used, but the Bible chose a word that means to plunge under water.

 

[NewCreation435]

It's considered a good symbol to baptize by immersion because, for example, Scripture speaks of being buried with Christ. But is that necessary--according to Scripture--for there to be a valid baptism? Or is it merely optional?

You want to open another exciting thread about baptism do you? LOL
I don't see a requirement in the Bible about how much water is used or even that the person is immersed. I think what is going on in the person's heart internally is more important

 

[Albion]

You want to open another exciting thread about baptism do you? LOL

I actually want to open another exciting thread about almost anything, if truth be told, but especially something about religious issues. How about you? Is there a new thread you could post?

I don't see a requirement in the Bible about how much water is used or even that the person is immersed. I think what is going on in the person's heart internally is more important

Ah, you seem to have jumped from no particular amount of water to no water needed at all. While I agree that immersion is not indicated, I don't think we can say the same about water itself.

 

[Tigger]

I say 'no' to the amount of water needed to qualify as a official baptism but His word attached to the water that creates the means by which His grace is administered to the recipient. But then it's only those who see baptism as merely symbolic that find the significance in the amount of water used that qualifies a proper baptism.

 

[Josiah]

Acts 2:38 NASB Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Strong's G907
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 907: βαπτίζω
βαπτίζω; (imperfect ἐβαπτιζον); future βαπτίσω; 1 aorist ἐβάπτισα; passive (present βαπτίζομαι); imperfect ἐβαπτιζομην; perfect participle βεβαπτισμενος; 1 aorist ἐβαπτίσθην; 1 future βαπτισθήσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐβαπτισαμην; (frequent. (?) from βάπτω, like βαλλίζω from βάλλω); here and there in Plato, Polybius, Diodorus, Strabo, Josephus, Plutarch, others.
I.
1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 (where WH text ῥαντισωνται); Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30; Judith 12:7).
3. metaphorically, to overwhelm, as ἰδιωτας ταῖς ἐισφοραις, Diodorus 1, 73; ὀφλημασι, Plutarch, Galba 21; τῇ συμφορά βεβαπτισμενος, Heliodorus Aeth. 2, 3; and alone, to inflict great and abounding calamities on one: ἐβαπτισαν τήν πόλιν, Josephus, b. j. 4, 3, 3; ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, Isaiah 21:4 the Sept. hence, βαπτίζεσθαι βάπτισμα (cf. Winers Grammar, 225 (211); (Buttmann, 148 (129)); cf. λούεσθαι τό λουτρόν, Aelian de nat. an. 3, 42), to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them, Matthew 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50 (cf. the German etwasauszubadenhaben, and the use of the word e. g. respecting those who cross a river with difficulty, ἕως τῶν μαστῶν οἱ πεζοί βαπτιζόμενοι διέβαινον, Polybius 3, 72, 4; (for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon under the word; also T. J. Conant, βαπτίζειν, its meaning and use, N. Y. 1864 (printed also as an Appendix to their revised version of the Gospel of Matthew by the American Bible Union); and especially four works by J. W. Dale entitled Classic, Judaic, Johannic, Christic, Baptism, Phil. 1867ff; D. B. Ford, Studies on the Bapt. Quest. (including a review of Dr. Dale's works), Bost. 1879)).
II. In the N. T. it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterward by Christ's command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion (see βάπτισμα, 3), viz., an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom; (for patristic references respecting the mode, ministrant, subjects, etc. of the rite, cf. Sophocles Lexicon, under the word; Dict. of Chris. Antiq. under the word Baptism).
a. The word is used absolutely, to administer the rite of ablution, to baptize (Vulg.baptizo; Tertulliantingo,tinguo (cf.metgiro, de corona mil. § 3)): Mark 1:4; John 1:25f, 28; John 3:22f, 26; John 4:2; John 10:40; 1 Corinthians 1:17; with the cognate noun τό βάπτισμα, Acts 19:4; ὁ βαπτίζων substantively equivalent to ὁ βαπτιστής, Mark 6:14 (24 T Tr WH). τινα, John 4:1; Acts 8:38; 1 Corinthians 1:14, 16. Passive to be baptized: Matthew 3:13f, 16; Mark 16:16; Luke 3:21; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12, 13,(Acts 8:36); Acts 10:47; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 1:15 L T Tr WH; 1 Cor 10:2 L T Tr marginal reading. WH marginal reading. Passive in a reflexive sense (i. e. middle, cf. Winers Grammar, § 38, 3), to allow oneself to be initiated by baptism, to receive baptism: Luke (Luke 3:7,12); Luke 7:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 9:18; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; with the cognate noun τό βάπτισμα added, Luke 7:29; 1 aorist middle, 1 Corinthians 10:2 (L T Tr marginal reading WH marginal reading ἐβαπτίσθησαν (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 38, 4 b.)); Acts 22:16. followed by a dative of the thing with which baptism is performed, ὕδατι, see bb. below.
b. with prepositions; aa. εἰς, to mark the element into which the immersion is made: εἰς τόν Ιορδάνην, Mark 1:9. to mark the end: εἰς μετάνοιαν, to bind one to repentance, Matthew 3:11; εἰς τό Ἰωάννου βάπτισμα, to bind to the duties imposed by John's baptism, Acts 19:3 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 397 (371)); εἰς ὄνομα τίνος, to profess the name (see ὄνομα, 2) of one whose follower we become, Matthew 28:19; Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15; εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, to obtain the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38; εἰς τόν Μωυσῆν, to follow Moses as a leader, 1 Corinthians 10:2. to indicate the effect: εἰς ἕν σῶμα, to unite together into one body by baptism, 1 Corinthians 12:13; εἰς Χριστόν, εἰς τόν θάνατον αὐτοῦ, to bring by baptism into fellowship with Christ, into fellowship in his death, by which fellowship we have died to sin, Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3 (cf. Meyer on the latter passive, Ellicott on the former). bb. ἐν, with the dative of the thing in which one is immersed: ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, Mark 1:5; ἐν τῷ ὕδατι, John 1:31 (L T Tr WH ἐν ὕδατι, but compare Meyer at the passage (who makes the article deictic)). of the thing used in baptizing: ἐν ὕδατι, Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8 (T WH Tr marginal reading omit; Tr text brackets ἐν); John 1:26, 33; cf. Buttmann, § 133, 19; (cf. Winers Grammar, 412 (384); see ἐν, I. 5 d. α.); with the simple dative, ὕδατι, Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16. ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ, to imbue richly with the Holy Spirit (just as its large bestowment is called an outpouring): Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8 (L Tr brackets ἐν); Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; Acts 11:16; with the addition καί πυρί to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i. e. to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell, Matthew 3:11. ἐν ὀνόματι τοῦ κυρίου, by the authority of the Lord, Acts 10:48. cc. Passive ἐπί (L Tr WH ἐν) τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, relying on the name of Jesus Christ, i. e. reposing one's hope on him, Acts 2:38. dd. ὑπέρ τῶν νεκρῶν on behalf of the dead, i. e. to promote their eternal salvation by undergoing baptism in their stead, 1 Corinthians 15:29; cf. (Winers Grammar, 175 (165); 279 (262); 382 (358); Meyer (or Beet) at the passage); especially Neander at the passage; Rückert, Progr. on the passage, Jen. 18 47; Paret in Ewald's Jahrb. d. Biblical Wissensch. ix., p. 247; (cf. B. D. under the word Baptism XII. Alex.'s Kitto ibid. VI.).

So the Greek word meaning to completely plunge under the water, like a sinking ship or washing a dish, is translated as 'baptize' in the following Bible verses:

Matthew 3:6, 3:11, 3:13, 3:14, 3:16, 28:18
Mark 1:4, 1:5, 1:8, 1:9, 6:14, 6:24, 10:38, 10:39, 16:16
Luke 3:7, 3:12, 3:16, 3:21, 7:29, 7:30, 11:38, 12:50
John 1:25, 1:26, 1:28, 1:31, 1:33, 3:22, 3:23, 3:26, 4:1, 4:2, 10:40
Acts 1:5, 2:38, 2:41, 8:12, 8:13, 8:16, 8:36, 8:38, 9:18, 10:47, 10:48, 11:16, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:3, 19:4, 19:5, 22:16
Romans 6:3
1 Corinthians 1:13, 1:14, 1:15, 1:16, 1:17, 10:2, 12:13, 15:29
Galatians 3:27

If God said 'dunk/plunge/immerse' so many times, I lean towards the position that He meant it. There are other words for 'pour' that could have been used, but the Bible chose a word that means to plunge under water.

Strong, widely esteemed, has a reputation for an Anabaptist pov ....

And I wonder..... perhaps the word CAN mean "immerse" but can it ONLY mean that? If so, I wonder... when did they not know that in the early Second Century? And when does a title of a word mandate the practice? If so, Communion very early was called "The Eucharist" (it means celebration, party) so must we have balloons and streamers or it's not a valid act? It's also called "Supper" so must it be at a certain time of day and have 4 courses (hyperbole but you get my point). In other words, I'm not sure a case is made that the word MUST (or even primarily) mean "immerse".... or that the title of a practice mandates the practice.

 

[Albion]

If God said 'dunk/plunge/immerse' so many times, I lean towards the position that He meant it. There are other words for 'pour' that could have been used, but the Bible chose a word that means to plunge under water.

Pour isn't a issue since I don't know of any church that insists upon pouring the water. And as for the meaning of the word itself, while "immerse" is one meaning, so are "dip" and "wash," as you yourself acknowledged in your post, and they do not mean immerse totally.

 

[psalms 91]

I believe in immersion but I dont think this is anything to lose salvation over therefore it is not important

 

[tango]

I think the notion of baptism being essential for salvation is disproved by the case of the thief on the cross who repented. I don't imagine the Romans took him down from the cross so he could be baptised and hung up there again.

Personally I'm minded to take the view that baptism should be by immersion but wouldn't regard it as critical. I struggle with the concept of infant baptism given it is something done to a child rather than something done in response to an informed decision, and don't see how something done to a person without any consent on their part can be expected to have any bearing on their salvation.

 

[Albion]

But is there any Scriptural guidance that would make immersion the way to go?

 

[tango]

But is there any Scriptural guidance that would make immersion the way to go?

Perhaps by example rather than explicit mandate. If people were baptised in the river it seems reasonable to assume that they got a lot wetter than having a handful of water splashed on their forehead. That said it doesn't necessarily follow that the way something was done in Biblical times must necessarily be followed precisely - if it were so important to do it a certain way I would expect Scripture to spell it out in detail.

 

[Josiah]

1. Again, I don't think a case can be made that the koine Greek word means only "immerse." See3 Acts 11:15-16, 1 Corinthians 10:2, Hebrews 9:10, Mark 7:4, Mark 10:38, Mark 10:39, Luke 12: 50, Luke 11:38, Joel 2:29, Acts 2:17, Acts 2:18 just for starters.

2. I don't think a case can be made that the title of an act governs it. If so, communion would have to be a party, part of a supper (at supper time), and always done in common. Worship would have to be always bowing down, etc.

3. There's very good evidence that sprinkling was practiced very early - by people who spoke koine Greek - so obviously those who spoke koine Greek did not limit baptism to immersion.

4. I reject the rubric that we can only do what seems was done by examples recorded in the bible. I wouldn't be posting on the internet if I held to that.



- Josiah




.

 

[tango]

1. Again, I don't think a case can be made that the koine Greek word means only "immerse." See3 Acts 11:15-16, 1 Corinthians 10:2, Hebrews 9:10, Mark 7:4, Mark 10:38, Mark 10:39, Luke 12: 50, Luke 11:38, Joel 2:29, Acts 2:17, Acts 2:18 just for starters.

2. I don't think a case can be made that the title of an act governs it. If so, communion would have to be a party, part of a supper (at supper time), and always done in common. Worship would have to be always bowing down, etc.

3. There's very good evidence that sprinkling was practiced very early - by people who spoke koine Greek - so obviously those who spoke koine Greek did not limit baptism to immersion.

4. I reject the rubric that we can only do what seems was done by examples recorded in the bible. I wouldn't be posting on the internet if I held to that.



- Josiah




.

You make good points here, although a couple of observations....

Something being done early on in the life of the church doesn't necessarily mean it was good. The church in Corinth was doing all sorts of goofy stuff, stuff that Paul wrote to them to tell them to stop doing. If something silly got into early church teaching and survived because nobody stamped on it, we can't necessarily conclude that it's theologically sound. To be clear, we also can't assume it's not sound, we just can't draw much of a conclusion from the fact it existed.

It is easy to get caught up in a notion that becomes prohibitive, in the sense that things not expressly endorsed or permitted in Scripture are therefore discouraged if not prohibited. As you say (quite rightly) if there were any merit in such a stance we would have to stop driving cars, using the internet etc. That said, sometimes an example may be a useful guide as long as it is not allowed to become a master.

The issue of infant baptism is obviously different to the issue of whether "baptism" requires immersion or not, so perhaps that's best left for a different thread.

 

[Albion]

Perhaps by example rather than explicit mandate. If people were baptised in the river it seems reasonable to assume that they got a lot wetter than having a handful of water splashed on their forehead.

I would agree with that, but...it doesn't mean that total immersion in the river was the mode used. There isn't even any way to show that Jesus himself was baptized by total immersion at the hands of John, despite the fact that it was in the River Jordan.

 

[NewCreation435]

I actually want to open another exciting thread about almost anything, if truth be told, but especially something about religious issues. How about you? Is there a new thread you could post?


Ah, you seem to have jumped from no particular amount of water to no water needed at all. While I agree that immersion is not indicated, I don't think we can say the same about water itself.

No, I didn't say that water was not needed. Just that the amount wasn't indicated in scripture. I heard someone say that early on sprinkling and pouring were used because of a lack of water in some places. Most of my Baptist friends would say they would want to be immersed because Jesus was immersed. Some would even say they want to be immersed in a river or body of water instead of a baptistry because Jesus was baptized in a river. I've heard people say that.

 

[atpollard]

Pour isn't a issue since I don't know of any church that insists upon pouring the water. And as for the meaning of the word itself, while "immerse" is one meaning, so are "dip" and "wash," as you yourself acknowledged in your post, and they do not mean immerse totally.

They do in Ancient Greek.

When non-Biblical sources describe a ship that sinks, they use the word 'baptizo'. When non-Biblical writers want to describe dipping animals to treat lice, they use the word 'baptizo'. When non-Biblical writers want to describe in detail the procedure for immersing a pot to completely clean out any old residue before placing the new substance in the pot, they use the word 'baptizo'. To plunge under water IS the primary and most common meaning of the word.

People frequently point to what the church did, often hundreds of years later, which I do not deny ... but I don't hear of other uses for 'baptizo' from non-Biblical sources (or clear cases where 'baptizo' could not have meant immersion in the Bible). It is a choice between what the Bible actually and literally says, and "church traditions". I simply choose to place the Word of God over the traditions of men. God said 'baptizo' which means to plunge under or overwhelm. I am not responsible for what the word literally means.

 

[Josiah]

They do in Ancient Greek.

Can you show that in every case here, the ONLY and MANDATED meaning is "to physically and fully immerse under?"

Acts 11:15-16, 1 Corinthians 10:2, Hebrews 9:10, Mark 7:4, Mark 10:38, Mark 10:39, Luke 12: 50, Luke 11:38, Joel 2:29, Acts 2:17, Acts 2:18


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